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The title sort of says it all.

I liked playing a mixed PA/TDA wolfguard army in 5th and early 6th but that isn't a real option anymore.

Deathwing seems to still be over costed.

Grey Knights also seem over costed for a pure, or nearly pure, Terminator army.

Am I missing an amazing dataslate or formation, or is a terminator heavy army just not going to work anymore?

Terminators have been over costed for years. Period.

They still work as part of the force. But you'll encounter significant difficulties trying to create a pure-termie army. The best you can get with pure-termies atm is either deathwing or SW termie droppod spam.

I think SW terminators in a LR/LRC works fine in 1800+ pts games. But TWC are just better for the point cost.

If you want to try mixed lists, Lone wolves in TDA are awesome (that they are allowed deep striking now makes them so much better), and you can almost always find a spot for 1 or 2.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
The title sort of says it all.

I liked playing a mixed PA/TDA wolfguard army in 5th and early 6th but that isn't a real option anymore.

Deathwing seems to still be over costed.

Grey Knights also seem over costed for a pure, or nearly pure, Terminator army.

Am I missing an amazing dataslate or formation, or is a terminator heavy army just not going to work anymore?

When talking about competition, are talking about large events with 150 or 200+ people from around the country, or something that'll hold it's own in a typical local tournament of maybe 12-20 people?

If the former, probably not, but then that goes for the majority of units and is by no means unique to Terminators, and is not necessarily a reflection on them so much as it is on other units that simply outclass *everything*, Terminator or otherwise.

If the latter if what you're after however, they absolutely can be viable. There's lots of GK builds that can work when built around Terminators fairly well in most games, particularly when built around the GK unique FoC allowing them to DS in turn 1 as well as run & shoot when they come in, particularly in conjunction with a couple of Dreadknights. This can be a very powerful alpha-strike army that can crush a flank and roll up a line very quickly.

Grey Knight Termies are worth using. They're definitely my first choice for fulfilling my troop requirement. (Although what has been done to strike squads/palladins/purgation squads is, in a word, horrendous - and they also took our ability to manipulate force org away. So they may just win by default. ) I'm not sure I would ever take more than the required two squads, but slap a psycannon on them and give them a hammer or two and they're very useful.

It's also nice that when they deepstrike in with the obligatory shunting interceptors/dreadknights, they're usually overlooked. Your enemy's AP2 shots will be at the dreadknight not the terminators. Leaving them free to claim objectives and bully squads that lack ap2 weapons.

In 30k, some of them are a little bit more viable... but 30k is better balanced than 40k.

I've gotten that Termies were over priced for quite a while now. In the past though it seemed easier to build a viable list centered around terminators.

In 5th I loved to run my Salamanders with 10 TH/SS termies and a libby with Gate supported by Drop Pods and a rhino rush. 10 terminators just seem so week in the 7th edition meta even with a 2+3+.

I really dislike playing Grey Knights since I played them for much of the end of 5th and they just seemed too one dimensional and the new codex feels even more one dimensional. Oh well, thanks for the feedback.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Grey Knights also seem over costed for a pure, or nearly pure, Terminator army.

Hardly. GKTs are the cheapest terminators available AND they're troops. You get 5 GKTs for 165 points. Thats a steal.

If you want to do a pure Terminator army GKs are your codex.

I run Terminator GKs to some pretty good success. My lists are generally 1-2 lvl3 Librarians, a Grandmaster with a Psycannon, 2 max units of Terminators, 2 Dreadknights, and a Stormraven.

GKT units have 2 psycannons, 2 hammers, and melta bombs for the justicar. Sometimes other upgrades depending on how points work out.


Then you generally hold things in reserve for turn 1 deep strike rolling. You can take the dirt cheap Inquisition reserve reroll package for 165 points so everyone will arrive on turn 1.

All my psykers usually take Sanctic although that is personal preference. Sometimes I do 2 Sanctic and 1 Divination psyker. If you get both Sanctuary and Foreboding you can hand out 3+ invulns.

One can only hope that when GW gets around to the Dark Angels update for 7th, we'll see the Deathwing returned to viability as an army concept. A point decrease is a no-brainer, but a return to 2 heavies per 5 termies would be a nice bump, too.

I have never seen Grey Knights lose a game, and their list usually uses Terminators in some way. Literally a damn monkey could play that army and win.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I've gotten that Termies were over priced for quite a while now. In the past though it seemed easier to build a viable list centered around terminators.

In 5th I loved to run my Salamanders with 10 TH/SS termies and a libby with Gate supported by Drop Pods and a rhino rush. 10 terminators just seem so week in the 7th edition meta even with a 2+3+.

I really dislike playing Grey Knights since I played them for much of the end of 5th and they just seemed too one dimensional and the new codex feels even more one dimensional. Oh well, thanks for the feedback.

Most armies and units have changed over time, there's been some power escalation. Regular Space Marine Terminators are completely identical to what they were in 4th edition.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Grey Knights also seem over costed for a pure, or nearly pure, Terminator army.

Hardly. GKTs are the cheapest terminators available AND they're troops. You get 5 GKTs for 165 points. Thats a steal.

If you want to do a pure Terminator army GKs are your codex.

I run Terminator GKs to some pretty good success. My lists are generally 1-2 lvl3 Librarians, a Grandmaster with a Psycannon, 2 max units of Terminators, 2 Dreadknights, and a Stormraven.

GKT units have 2 psycannons, 2 hammers, and melta bombs for the justicar. Sometimes other upgrades depending on how points work out.


Then you generally hold things in reserve for turn 1 deep strike rolling. You can take the dirt cheap Inquisition reserve reroll package for 165 points so everyone will arrive on turn 1.

All my psykers usually take Sanctic although that is personal preference. Sometimes I do 2 Sanctic and 1 Divination psyker. If you get both Sanctuary and Foreboding you can hand out 3+ invulns.

What's the dirt cheap Inqusition reserve reroll package?

Grey Knights are probably the best Terminator-eqsue army. Deathwing are nice, but just get hurt too easily.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Grey Knights are probably the best Terminator-eqsue army. Deathwing are nice, but just get hurt too easily.

I'd definitely agree with this. DA work much better as a hybrid army, GK's can do the "all terminator" thing fairly well.

 ultimentra wrote:
I have never seen Grey Knights lose a game, and their list usually uses Terminators in some way. Literally a damn monkey could play that army and win.

just lost to a tyrannid player in a tournament. got slammed by his three Mawlocs.

didnt help that my Warlord Libby perriled two times in a row and lost a wound each time. (yes, he died)

 ultimentra wrote:
I have never seen Grey Knights lose a game, and their list usually uses Terminators in some way. Literally a damn monkey could play that army and win.

5th edition called, they want their whining back :p.


Competitively, GKs are only good as allies. They're very good allies, because of the ability to get powerful psychic powers, Draigo, and Dreadknights, but Terminators are only part of that equation insomuch as you're required to take troops and GKT are basically the only acceptable option.

 DarkLink wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
I have never seen Grey Knights lose a game, and their list usually uses Terminators in some way. Literally a damn monkey could play that army and win.

5th edition called, they want their whining back :p.


Competitively, GKs are only good as allies. They're very good allies, because of the ability to get powerful psychic powers, Draigo, and Dreadknights, but Terminators are only part of that equation insomuch as you're required to take troops and GKT are basically the only acceptable option.

I don't think Draigo can be an ally, unless you go unbound

I play GKs but if you want a TDA army I'd actually recommend SW champions of fenris. You could go all TDA if you wanted for a full ws 5 army. SW tdawgs are still the most customizable in the game with unit size 3+ access to hvy weapons combis and storm shields plus arjac, lone wolves and fast attack drop pods for delivery. It won't be high end competitive but I feel it could hold its own at a local.

You'll encounter an uphill challenge if you face a White Scar army with grav guns though. They'll wound you on 2's and are AP 2...

Running SW formations gives you some good options for WGT but other than just unbound mixing your terminator squads with assault cannons or heavy flamers and hoping they make it in :/

Maybe they could work against fluffy armies? I know I would love them to work, I have 40 WGT now build up and almost nowhere to go (usually)

 Johnnytorrance wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
I have never seen Grey Knights lose a game, and their list usually uses Terminators in some way. Literally a damn monkey could play that army and win.

5th edition called, they want their whining back :p.


Competitively, GKs are only good as allies. They're very good allies, because of the ability to get powerful psychic powers, Draigo, and Dreadknights, but Terminators are only part of that equation insomuch as you're required to take troops and GKT are basically the only acceptable option.

I don't think Draigo can be an ally, unless you go unbound

Good thing you have the Nemesis Strike Force .

Lanlaorn wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Grey Knights also seem over costed for a pure, or nearly pure, Terminator army.

Hardly. GKTs are the cheapest terminators available AND they're troops. You get 5 GKTs for 165 points. Thats a steal.

If you want to do a pure Terminator army GKs are your codex.

I run Terminator GKs to some pretty good success. My lists are generally 1-2 lvl3 Librarians, a Grandmaster with a Psycannon, 2 max units of Terminators, 2 Dreadknights, and a Stormraven.

GKT units have 2 psycannons, 2 hammers, and melta bombs for the justicar. Sometimes other upgrades depending on how points work out.


Then you generally hold things in reserve for turn 1 deep strike rolling. You can take the dirt cheap Inquisition reserve reroll package for 165 points so everyone will arrive on turn 1.

All my psykers usually take Sanctic although that is personal preference. Sometimes I do 2 Sanctic and 1 Divination psyker. If you get both Sanctuary and Foreboding you can hand out 3+ invulns.

What's the dirt cheap Inqusition reserve reroll package?

Inquisitor with 3 Servo Skulls and 3 Servitors with free MM in an Imperial Bunker with a Comms Relay. And it turns out its actually 130ish points instead of 165.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
Running SW formations gives you some good options for WGT but other than just unbound mixing your terminator squads with assault cannons or heavy flamers and hoping they make it in :/

Maybe they could work against fluffy armies? I know I would love them to work, I have 40 WGT now build up and almost nowhere to go (usually)

I haven't used mine in awhile either. I'm picturing units of 4- cf, p.axe, 3 ss 3 combis- fa pod.. x3. Ish, basically termicide with turn 1 arrival and storm shields. Add arjac to one and give all 3 stormwolf DTs with mm's. Plus maybe some podded axe/shield dreads. This would then allow for a grip of deep striking lone wolves. MSU termies with a respectable air force.

dominuschao wrote:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
Running SW formations gives you some good options for WGT but other than just unbound mixing your terminator squads with assault cannons or heavy flamers and hoping they make it in :/

Maybe they could work against fluffy armies? I know I would love them to work, I have 40 WGT now build up and almost nowhere to go (usually)

I haven't used mine in awhile either. I'm picturing units of 4- cf, p.axe, 3 ss 3 combis- fa pod.. x3. Ish, basically termicide with turn 1 arrival and storm shields. Add arjac to one and give all 3 stormwolf DTs with mm's. Plus maybe some podded axe/shield dreads. This would then allow for a grip of deep striking lone wolves. MSU termies with a respectable air force.

That's a massive number of points. The bit in red, with the obligatory 2 HQs and 2 Troops required for Wolves Unleashed is already pushing 1700 points. There isn't a lot you can add for an 1850 point event, which seems to be the standard these days. Cool concept though especially with the 3 Stormwolf transports.

Actually I was thinking company of the great wolf so no troops required. Edit- heres what I came up with just for a reference:

Kingsguard 1850:
(all ws 5)

HQ
rune priest ml 2, tda, rune axe, cbmelta

NO FOC
arjac rockfist
lone wolf- tda, frost axe, ss
lone wolf- tda, frost axe, ss
lone wolf- tda, frost axe, ss
lone wolf- tda, frost axe, ss

ELITES
4 wolf guard terminators- 1 frost axe/cbmelta, 3 ss/cbmeltas (arjac)
4 wolf guard terminators- 1 frost axe/cbmelta, 3 ss/cbmeltas (rp)
3 wolf guard terminators- 1 p.axe/cbplas, 2 ss/cbplas
3 wolf guard terminators- 1 p.axe/cbplas, 2 ss/cbplas
DT
stormwolf- 2 mm
stormwolf- 2 mm
stormwolf- 2 mm
FA
drop pod
drop pod
drop pod

TOTAL- 1847

BA have rules to run the first company with a detachment of 16 Elite slots with HQs that have to be in TDA and all the elites choices have to be Terminators or Stern/Vanguard Vets. It also lets you scatter DSing units D6" rather than 2D6.

Additionally there's a formation where you can take 3 Terminator Squads (either assault of tac) they have to start in reserve but all come in together and can shoot and run when they arrive.

I doubt it's particularly competitive, but it looks hella fun to play.

D

Wolves do TDA better than BA though due to cost and customization although FNP is kinda cool.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Inquisitor with 3 Servo Skulls and 3 Servitors with free MM in an Imperial Bunker with a Comms Relay. And it turns out its actually 130ish points instead of 165.

Alternatively you can use an aegis with relay for 70 points, man it with a DK or 2 and shunt them after your deepstrikes come in.