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Scum and Villainy has finally released. Took FFG 7 months to get it out after the announcement, and who knows why. The entire line has had a lot of issues for production and release it seems. One of the most interesting things about S&V was on the package itself. I should have taken a picture, but right next to the FFG logo on the box was a nice, stylized, 'Disney' logo. Makes sense, as Disney has taken control over the Star Wars franchise. Then, it hit me. Given the announcement that expanded universe is now non-cannon, and given that so much of the X-Wing Miniatures game has ships from the expanded universe...

What does that mean for the future of the game? FFG announced Wave VII- the Imperial Raider back in December, but nothing after that, which doesn't imply anything, as FFG has done this in the past.

I just can't shake the sense of foreboding about the future of X-Wing now that Disney is involved. It's obvious that there will be new ships in SW: Episode 7, but the movie isn't coming out until December 18th 2015. I'm pretty sure Disney won't allow FFG to spoil those ships until, like maybe November? Now what would be awesome is if FFG is already working with Disney on those ships to release them at the same time as episode 7. That would mean only one large ship release until December.

Given the production and shipping time lines of past FFG products, and to get the new ships out on store shelves for the movie release and in time for Christmas, means FFG would have to start shipping the new stuff around the beginning of November (due to Thanksgiving and Black Friday shopping). That would mean FFG would have to be shipping it out to distributors late October, and they would have to have the product in hand by October. Shipping from China takes about a month, so that would be September, production about 2-3 months depending on who they use in China, but 2-3 months is average for plastic models like this. That would mean production of the models would have to start in June/July. Back that up 2-3 more months for the design and approval of the new ships (and I bet it would actually take 3-4 months based on the fact that the movie isn't done yet, so the design of the ships would probably have to be approved by someone in J.J. Abrams camp, the Disney camp, and finally FFG). That would mean that the models would be going through the initial approval process right now.

The cards that go with the ships would have to be along the same timeline. Everything is printed/painted/packaged in China at the production point, which means the factory would have to have all the designs, the artwork, and the design of the cards by June, in two months. Which would mean the play testers would be in the final stages of play testing the new ships now. Then there is the artwork for the cards...

It's possible, and it would be awesome if FFG can pull it off. The pessimist in me and the track record of FFG says nope, not gonna happen. We might not be seeing any new ships besides the Imperial Raider and "new" Tie Advanced until after Star Wars Episode 7 comes out in December.

A chilling idea is that Wave VII is the last wave of X-Wing. Disney has a contract with Hasbro to make toys, games, merchandise, etc. etc. for Star Wars. Hasbro has a HUGE gaming division, including Wizards of the Coast. FFG by comparison is a drop in the bucket. I can totally see FFG losing the license for X-Wing and all Star Wars franchise stuff and Hasbro determining the future of any kind of X-Wing miniatures game. I bet Star Wars: Armada will die an aborted death - the base game and first Wave will release, but nothing after that. Imperial Assault will limp along for a little while, but die too. It's way, way too close to the kinds of boardgames that Wizards of the Coast produces, and if I worked in that division at WoTC, I'd be shouting at Hasbro "We can do that! We can do it better!", and Hasbro has GOT to be looking at that stuff. Even if FFG has a contract/license for the Star Wars stuff, well, Disney and Hasbro have very deep products and could probably just buy out the contract, or, just outright buy FFG and absorb it into Hasbro (like what they did with Wizards of the Coast). The power of the Star Wars franchise to make money will make Disney/Hasbro want to return all the rights back to them. The popularity of Star Wars will skyrocket after the new movie releases in December. Disney, and Hasbro will want to cash in on that.

Scary thoughts, and I hope I'm wrong.

FFG confirmed in the middle of last year that they already have up to wave 8 planned and worked out. I expect they are much further ahead now.

The issues are probably down to FFGs incompetence. I would expect some tie in with the films, but knowing FFG it will be well after the films... I would hope for a wave between now and then, but you never know.

As for the contract, I thought it had been agreed, but if not FFG would be able to demand a lot of money for it, and I doubt hasbro would be that interested. If they did they would not be able to buy FFG unless FFG wanted to sell. They are not a public company, and they don't seem likely to sell.

I thought I was the negative type... sheesh!

Your points seem logical enough that the scenario you raise could happen.

One can hope that the tabletop game is considered sufficiently removed from "toys" that they decide not to do the grab and figure it is not competing with Hasbro.

A successful line like this pulls in some good money to the IP license holder so FFG may have a bit of pull in this regard.

Also, Disney would still be bound by the prior agreement with Lucas however long the contract details.

There are only a few other things out there we would want to see and then it starts tapping out. I hope the next StarWars knocks our socks off and builds on the designs of the old SW, the prequel ships... they just never did anything for me by their design.

This doom and gloom is unecessary. DIsney has owned the Star Wars license since 2012. If FFG was really losing the license, they would not have ever bothered developing Armada as they would never make all the money back developing the game. Also, FFG is a board game company that caters mostly to game shops and a relatively small population. Hasbro is a toy company and Wizards of the Coast is a card company. Whilest a Star wars CCG from Wizards is possible down the road, a tabletop game is not. The only problem that Xwing is going to have is that they are going to eventually run out of ship designs. But at the rate they release stuff, that may not be for another decade.

It's already been revealed that FFG has the license for Force Awakens tie ins, their booth at Toy Fair had a big Force Awakens banner right under the FFG one. With a 4-6 month window between announcement and release for past waves I don't have much in the way of doubts about getting another Wave this year to go along with wave 6 and the Raider. Now for the canon/non canon argument, that was never meant as a these things never existed announcement, forget all about them, they will never be touched on in any way ever again. It was meant to free up the franchise of films moving forward from having to follow any kind of set path established by existing continuity, FFG still has access to all that material to draw from and make minis and RPG material for, just like Bioware can continue to publish new things in the Star Wars the Old Republic universe, even though both are dealing with "expanded universe" materials.

Honestly this is just being pessimistic for the sake of it. X-Wing in one of the top miniature games in the world right now and I see no reason Disney would pull the plug on such a success story. Disney are many things but stupid isn't one of them. As long as X-Wing keeps selling the licence is safe.

FFG have the licence for the new films anyway so that's a whole new line of ships and pilots to introduce from the end of the year onwards.

The decision to kill of Lucasarts shows Disney probably doesn't want to do much in house development and prefers to licence these things out to third parties anyway.

Yeah, much doom and gloom, eh?

Y'all have given me some hope. I wasn't aware of Wave 8 being already planned out. We've seen Wave VII, so that's probably done up to the production level. Wave VIII... who knows where it is in it's cycle, and given that FFG doesn't like to show off incomplete products, I'd have to say Wave VIII if, and when it makes an appearance will probably be at Gencon, along with any other plans they may have for X-Wing. It will be great seeing what they have planned for Force Awakens, and how that will tie into X-wing.

The corporate world of business is interesting stuff. FFG could demand a lot of money for it's contract/license fees if Disney/Hasbro decided they wanted it, but something tells me that Disney/Hasbro could just take FFG to court and drown them in litigation fees and courtroom costs. Like I said, they have deep, deep pockets and FFG does not. It will probably come down to money, like it always does, and I am sure that Disney/Hasbro is already performing the monetary calculations of past performance vs. expected performance of all these licenses that have been handed out and will determine if they want to attempt to get them back, or just wait until they expire and acquire them then.

I'm pretty sure Lucasarts is for all intents and purposes, dead as far as the Star Wars franchise is concerned. I'm no corporate lawyer or anything, but I would think it would be very difficult for a non-existent company to try and enforce any kind of contract on Disney considering Disney paid, what, US$4 Billion? The deal made Lucas a major stockholder in Disney, but not a majority stock holder. He might have some small say in what Disney does, but probably not that much.

One of the reasons why Hasbro bought out, acquired, "rescued from Bankruptcy" Wizards of the Coast was it's desired expansion into the table top genre. WoTC is much more then "just a card company"- granted, they own "THE" card game- Magic: The Gathering, a card game that basically prints money. They also produce the Dungeon's and Dragons RPG- maybe you have heard of it?. WoTC has received many, many awards for it's games over the last 15 years.

Hasbro is not just a toy company. It's the largest board game company in the world. Chances are if you have played a board game in the last 10 years, it was a Hasbro board game.

If Wizards of the Coast wanted to make a Star Wars tabletop game, they could. They have the design teams, experience, and access to the Hasbro production lines to do it. Like I said, it's a money game, and I'm sure Disney/Hasbro are looking at all these licensees and making plans for them.

Best case in my opinion? Disney says FFG is small potatoes and leaves them alone, and we continue to see X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault stuff over the next several years. Let's hope for that outcome, and as long as we are wishing on stars/chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, let's hope FFG figures out how to get it's product out to consumers faster and more reliably!

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yeah, much doom and gloom, eh?

Y'all have given me some hope. I wasn't aware of Wave 8 being already planned out. We've seen Wave VII, so that's probably done up to the production level. Wave VIII... who knows where it is in it's cycle, and given that FFG doesn't like to show off incomplete products, I'd have to say Wave VIII if, and when it makes an appearance will probably be at Gencon, along with any other plans they may have for X-Wing. It will be great seeing what they have planned for Force Awakens, and how that will tie into X-wing.

Small nitpicky detail, the Raider isn't an official wave, none of the outside the normal release products are (Huge Ships, Aces) so the next wave of ships to be previewed would be Wave 7.

I really wouldn't worry about Disney letting Hasbro/WoTC have a go something Star Wars related, last time they tried they turned out a bunch of mindcrushingly terrible CCG's / other games that tanked so hard they don't even pretend to remember them

Really, most of the stuff you posted is extremely far fetched or downright illogical. Why would Disney "drown them in litigation fees and courtroom costs" when they are receiving a bundle of money from the licencing for FFG's successful Star Wars games? It really doesn't make sense, and seems like a lot of needless fear and panic.

 Tamwulf wrote:

One of the reasons why Hasbro bought out, acquired, "rescued from Bankruptcy" Wizards of the Coast was it's desired expansion into the table top genre. WoTC is much more then "just a card company"- granted, they own "THE" card game- Magic: The Gathering, a card game that basically prints money. They also produce the Dungeon's and Dragons RPG- maybe you have heard of it?. WoTC has received many, many awards for it's games over the last 15 years.

Hasbro is not just a toy company. It's the largest board game company in the world. Chances are if you have played a board game in the last 10 years, it was a Hasbro board game.

If Wizards of the Coast wanted to make a Star Wars tabletop game, they could. They have the design teams, experience, and access to the Hasbro production lines to do it. Like I said, it's a money game, and I'm sure Disney/Hasbro are looking at all these licensees and making plans for them.

You know what else they used to do? Miniature games. They had at least 3 going at one time (Star Wars, D&D, and Dreamblade) and have since ended all of these games. Additionally, they used to have more major RPGs than just D&D, such as the Star Wars RPG, but have stopped those too. It would seem that all signs point to them trying to get away from tabletop gaming in general and focus almost entirely on card gaming.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I really wouldn't worry about Disney letting Hasbro/WoTC have a go something Star Wars related, last time they tried they turned out a bunch of mindcrushingly terrible CCG's / other games that tanked so hard they don't even pretend to remember them

They weren't all failures; the Star Wars Miniature Game was actually quite successful for some time.

 Tamwulf wrote:


One of the reasons why Hasbro bought out, acquired, "rescued from Bankruptcy" Wizards of the Coast was it's desired expansion into the table top genre.

Hasbro didn't rescue Wizards. Wizards rescued TSR, the owners of D&D, which was bankrupt. To my knowledge, Wizards hasn't ever been in financial trouble. Hasbro simply bought Wizards because it was profitable and the old owners were exhausted running the company - at least to my understanding.

 General Seric wrote:
You know what else they used to do? Miniature games. They had at least 3 going at one time (Star Wars, D&D, and Dreamblade) and have since ended all of these games. Additionally, they used to have more major RPGs than just D&D, such as the Star Wars RPG, but have stopped those too. It would seem that all signs point to them trying to get away from tabletop gaming in general and focus almost entirely on card gaming.

This isn't a reflection of WOTC's choices. They ended their Star Wars games (both the miniatures and RPG) because Lucaswhatever demanded way too much money to renew it*, and WOTC/Hasbro couldn't afford to meet their demands. And the D&D miniatures game, which was intended to go with 4th edition D&D, wasn't very successful. So yeah, they got rid of some products that didn't work out for whatever reasons, but they're still keeping D&D as a core product and could very easily decide to launch another tabletop game if there's a good opportunity.

*Apparently this happened with more than just WOTC, and was something people were worried about with FFG before Disney bought everything.

 Peregrine wrote:

 General Seric wrote:
You know what else they used to do? Miniature games. They had at least 3 going at one time (Star Wars, D&D, and Dreamblade) and have since ended all of these games. Additionally, they used to have more major RPGs than just D&D, such as the Star Wars RPG, but have stopped those too. It would seem that all signs point to them trying to get away from tabletop gaming in general and focus almost entirely on card gaming.

This isn't a reflection of WOTC's choices. They ended their Star Wars games (both the miniatures and RPG) because Lucaswhatever demanded way too much money to renew it*, and WOTC/Hasbro couldn't afford to meet their demands. And the D&D miniatures game, which was intended to go with 4th edition D&D, wasn't very successful. So yeah, they got rid of some products that didn't work out for whatever reasons, but they're still keeping D&D as a core product and could very easily decide to launch another tabletop game if there's a good opportunity.

*Apparently this happened with more than just WOTC, and was something people were worried about with FFG before Disney bought everything.

I was more pointing to the fact that they haven't even made an attempt at all recently in the area of miniatures, as compared to in the past. I would think if they were serious about getting their foot in the tabletop market, they would at least have some attempt in the many years since they discontinued the D&D Miniatures Game (2010), but there has been absolutely no sign of any, which to me points to them not having a real interest in the market.

Hasbro tends to cater to Kids, and they sure as hell do not want their name put on things marketed to adults like X-Wing, D&D, etc is. That would make people turn off the 'Family' brand they have. They have expanded slightly into the collectors market at times but they are far more interested in kids because thats where the money is. The 6" Black series and the Combiner Wars/Classics line are a homage to their older fans but they will not be made in the same amounts as the 3.75" figures and Robots in Disguise figures, the market's not big enough for them to warrant it.

Hasbro doesn't dictate gak to WOTC, they own it but they're not sitting there demanding things be done, Hasbro wants the Kids and the Family, WOTC can handle the adult and teen gaming market, but they likely do not want to pick up things like FFG's games when they're already a success with people. Unless they can get all of FFG and the people who make the games for them, they would be taking a big and stupid risk obtaining it. Remember this is a company who once had GW's models as part of their game system.

Disney also owns Marvel but they don't dictate to Marvel what goes. Just as Warner Bro's doesn't suddenly add Bugs Bunny to the Batman universe for gaks and giggles. They own the companies and/or franchises, they want them t be profitable, if they meddle with them they lose out, so they don't meddle.

And from what I understand a large part of the delays with S&V was due to the shipping disputes which weren't just in the US although the reports have likely not stated it was an issue that had been a problem in a lot of countries.

FFG may also be slowing down design/production of Waves to keep the game viable for several years. Just about every ship from Ep4 (ANH) on has been produced. Many of the EU ships are now out and just about anything left are the real fringe ships.
The only places left to go are: Ep7, which JJ/Disney would be loath to chance letting any spoilers leak out of a toy maker in China...so we can probably expect those ships June-Sept 2016 at the earliest.
Next we have a backtrack to Ep1-3. Except you would have to account for 20 years of older technology trying to fit into the current game. Ships older and less powerful than a Z-95. Hence cheaper in points costs. Do we really want a Wave of 8 point ships with stats like 1, 1, 1, 1?
Finally, Scum. This gives us a brand new venue for at least 1 or 2 waves. Including some type of S&V Large turret ship. Perhaps the longed for Gozanti in Hutt livery (opening a slot for an Empire update using thst same ship).
In between, gifts like the Raider that fill the Imperial big ship hole and updates the TIE-ADV. So we will probably see another boxed set after that. Not sure what ship may be in their (now that FFG/Disney has gone off the reservation with the Raider class), but this would be the venue to provide the X-Wig "Boost" the designer was talking about. Maybe even give us Y-Wing love with some EPT pilots...so maybe like Most Wanted; a 3 ship box with an X and 2 Ys or an XYZ. Perhaps even cards for generic Rogue Squadron (PS5 with EPT) and the stealth X-Wing.
Soooo...over the next 15 months we can have the Raider/Vader fix, Rebel/X fix, 1-2 waves of S&V, a potential Large S&V, then the Ep7 release.

And if Armada takes off we may get some love in that direction...Mon-Cal and ISD 'Large ships,' SSD huge ships, maybe even a Death Star to rival the Attack Wing Borg Cube monstrosity.

I sincerely hope the fears stated in this thread never come to life!! I absolutely love the FFG Star Wars games!!

And if anything happened before they released a Boba Fett for Imperial Assault, I might just break down and cry!!

Fingers crossed that if FFG are bought, Hasbro/Disney will just let them carry on doing their own thing - I've got so much enjoyment out of playing both of their current Star Wars games and would be very tempted by Armada too!!

Also, FFG is not going to be bought, they just had a merger with a huge European game distributor, Asmodee Group:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2014/11/17/fantasy-flight-games-to-merge-into-the-asmodee-group-tm/

Even if this hadn't happened, they are not a public company, so no one can simply "buy" them, they would have to decide to sell.

Yeah, a ton of the premise is flawed which brought you to super negative (and incorrect) conclusions.

I wouldn't worry to much about the license. I'd worry more about FFG not being able to keep a reasonable release schedule for their products and games languishing as they now have 3 miniature based star wars games.

 Tamwulf wrote:
We've seen Wave VII

Who has? Care to share the details?

 Manchu wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
We've seen Wave VII

Who has? Care to share the details?

He was under the impression that the Raider and TIE Advance fix was Wave VII. Derek corrected a few posts ago.

But yeah, X-Wing isn't going anywhere any time soon.

I can't see any evidence that Armada will tank after only the initial stuff we have seen. The games not even out yet to start forecasting it's death! As successful as X-Wing is, they have to have prepared further Armada releases.

I would assume after the Raider would come a Star Wars Rebels based wave with the Ghost, Phantom, Tie Advanced Prototype, and Gorzanti Freighter.

I also have the feeling that sometime in the Fall FFG will announce a 2nd edition X-wing, simply because there's no way to fix the meta without revising point costs across the board. (Unless people somehow like torpedoes and missiles being utterly useless and 90% of the named pilots never seeing tournament play.)

I do think that a Gozanti Freighter would be the perfect Imperial answer to the Rebel Transport.

It's worth saying that D&D Attack Wing for all intents and purposes IS the D&D miniatures game. I think models that actually, you know, fly is in the minority now.

I wouldn't be so pessimistic about any Episode 7 models taking so long either. Don't forget:



There's going to be a whole load of companies out there making Star Wars toys for Christmas. A great many of them are no doubt going to be made in China. I sincerely doubt that Disney are going to be any more concerned about FFG blowing the whistle on something, than say, Lego.

RogueRegault wrote:


I also have the feeling that sometime in the Fall FFG will announce a 2nd edition X-wing, simply because there's no way to fix the meta without revising point costs across the board. (Unless people somehow like torpedoes and missiles being utterly useless and 90% of the named pilots never seeing tournament play.)

Actually you raise an interesting point. Given that the points for each ship are on cards that come with their respective models how exactly can a 2nd edition of the game be released without forcing players to buy their whole fleets again to obtain the necessery 2nd edition cards?

At some point FFG are going to have to make cards available separately in their own right. They can't keep forcing players to buy new expansions just to obtain fixes for previous ones. There is only so long that players will tolerate that. I'm not prepared to buy a capital ship I've no interest in in it own right just to make Tie Advanceds playable.

FFG have been following that business model for ages and its brought them incredible success. Netrunner is the same as X-Wing, you get cards which make absolutely no sense and are obviously underpowered - and then 6 months later they release a card which combos with it and it all makes sense. They have no reason to make the cards available separately as long as people are buying them (and trust me, this game is doing incredibly well). People are unlikely to buy multiple capital ships to be able to spam Tie Advanceds - but most Imperial players will end up buying one eventually, and that's all that FFG need.

I agree that there is basically no way that they could release a 2nd edition ala 40k changeovers where you would basically have to start from scratch (the game has gotten so big it would probably survive, but the target audience and general mindset of players means that it would bleed numbers way harder than 40k edition changes do). More likely they do a similar sort of thing to Netrunner/Magic, where they introduce a system where really old cards get phased out.

I could see them releasing a new starter box with the new movie (Mk2 X-Wing etc), but it would just be an alternate starter rather than a new edition.

 LuciusAR wrote:
Actually you raise an interesting point. Given that the points for each ship are on cards that come with their respective models how exactly can a 2nd edition of the game be released without forcing players to buy their whole fleets again to obtain the necessery 2nd edition cards?

At some point FFG are going to have to make cards available separately in their own right. They can't keep forcing players to buy expansions just to obtain fixes for previous ones. There is only so long that players will tolerate that. I'm not prepared to buy a capital ship I've no interest in in it own right just to make Tie Advanceds playable.

Well, it is highly unlikely that they will release a ver.2.0 of X-Wing for the very reason you just brought up. They also will probably never make card-only expansions or separate releases because it isn't their business philosophy to do so, Alex Davy has said as much on record too.

It's not like releasing a later product to enhance an earlier one is a phenomena unique to FFG games. It's been around for years, has been part of pretty much every CCG I've ever played, and seems to be where the core business model of Games Workshop is moving (in selling a new Codex for every army every 2-3 years).

Although if you are just playing friendly home games, with very little work you can print your own copies of nearly every cards for X-wing, aside from some pilots, maybe. Obviously this does not work for tournaments, but fine for home games.

I have several copies of the TIE Advanced card in my possession right now, just because FFG previewed it. Also was playing around with some Scum And Villainy at X-mas in the same way.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Although if you are just playing friendly home games, with very little work you can print your own copies of nearly every cards for X-wing, aside from some pilots, maybe. Obviously this does not work for tournaments, but fine for home games.

I have several copies of the TIE Advanced card in my possession right now, just because FFG previewed it. Also was playing around with some Scum And Villainy at X-mas in the same way.

Excellent point.

I think a lot of people forget that the vast majority of players play X-Wing because, you know, it's fun. These people don't care about what is competitive or who won Worlds last year. I play in tournaments, but most of my time spent playing this game is between friends, drinking beer and having a fun time. The new TIE Advance cards aren't needed to play causal games; my best friend has been flying Darth Vader for some time without them and does well... more importantly, he's had fun.

 derek wrote:
It's not like releasing a later product to enhance an earlier one is a phenomena unique to FFG games. It's been around for years, has been part of pretty much every CCG I've ever played, and seems to be where the core business model of Games Workshop is moving (in selling a new Codex for every army every 2-3 years).

True, but this isn't a CCG nor a GW game. There are no codexes or anything of that sort and the designers have said they need to work within the bounds of what is out there already, which to me says there is no intention of releasing a ver2.0 of the game.