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Another thing to note about combi weapons is they are one shot only. Even if you miss or fail to wound with the weapon you can't use it again (exception being certain relics). While combi weapons are a bit off topic they ARE being discussed in this thread in relation to storm bolters. I just happen to think 10 points for a combi weapon is too much. I can understand the cost of hunter-killer missiles their range is infinite and they have pretty good str and ap.

I like the fact that RF links the Bolter-SB-Hurricane family together, so they end up with a sort of thematic similarity. I am a big proponent of unified design. But as a fix goes, both options are pretty close. Probably ought to test them both at this point to get some more detail. The major tabletop difference would be that Termies get a stronger DS with RF if they land within 12". For any unit gunlining with a SB equipped on a character, the assault capability is probably more meaningful than an extra Bolter shot. So:

- Assault 3 at 3pts
- Rapidfire (2x) at 5pts

I think resolving Combi pricing is a big undertaking, it sounds like a lot of cross codex messiness. Maybe it's something for down the line. The main point was that to get a different weapon profile on your Sgt, you're looking at a Combi. SB simply improves your S4 AP5.

Here are some preliminary numbers.

Target Profile and Range
-- Rapid Fire (2x) stats ---> performance
-- Assault 3 stats ---> performance

AV10 Vehicle - Within 12"
-- 4x5x(2/3)(1/6) = 40/18 = 2.22 glances
-- 3x5x(2/3)(1/6) = 30/18 = 1.67 glances

AV10 Vehicle - Outside 12"
2x5x(2/3)(1/6) = 20/18 = 1.11 glances
3x5x(2/3)(1/6) = 30/18 = 1.67 glances

T3 5+ - Within 12"
4x5x(2/3)(2/3)(1) = 80/9 = 8.89 wounds
3x5x(2/3)(2/3)(1) = 60/9 = 6.67 wounds

T3 5+ - Outside 12"
2x5x(2/3)(2/3)(1) = 40/9 = 4.44 wounds
3x5x(2/3)(2/3)(1) = 60/9 = 6.67 wounds

T4 2+ - Within 12"
4x5x(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) = 40/36 = 1.11 wounds
3x5x(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) = 30/36 = 0.83 wounds

T4 2+ - Within 12"
2x5x(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) = 20/36 = 0.56 wounds
3x5x(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) = 30/36 = 0.83 wounds

Give them the equivalent of Tesla.

I think Assualt 3 is their easiest fix. Or salvo 2/4.

Assault seems more right than Rapid Fire or Salvo. The weapon just screams 'I don't care' when it comes to range/assaulting.

Alcibiades wrote:
Give them the equivalent of Tesla.

Storm bolters with assault 2, tesla or assault 2 or 3, gauss could prove interesting. It kinda steps on necrons a bit, but could solve issues with storm bolters. Maybe tesla and gauss could be ammo upgrades that a squad of troops with storm bolters could take at a discount (only one type). or a character, independant character, or unique character could take at full cost.

I could live with assault 2 gauss to be honest. the ability to glance vehicles makes storm bolters much more valuable, and would give some needed vehicle wrecking to GK.

If this was done I would say allow tda to make snap shots during shooting in order to get full bs during overwatch would be a neat addition.

It also would step on combi-plasma or combi-melta, and that's your anti-vehicle option as a Sgt upgrade. Terminators already have special weapons to increase their anti-vehicle capability.

Assault 3 seems like the winner to me.

So, while I was out being sick (which sucks), I was unable to post my own thoughts.

In any case, my own take:

Assault 3 is the good base option, IMO. I would, however, like to throw in my (continued) support for NorseSig's idea of Stormbolters being able to fire full-BS overwatch.

In the original iteration, IIRC, non-TDA models would have to choose full-BS Shooting Phase or full-BS Overwatch, with the opposite option being reduced to Snap Shooting. While I did briefly think "huh, maybe get both but introduce "Jam" for Overwatch fire, a la Space Hulk?" I rather quickly discarded that idea, as it's simply more streamlined to go with the original idea.

An Overwatch-buffed Stormbolter with Assault 3 I would probably price as 2 points. Yes, really. However, I would also allow such a weapon to pick ONE Special Issue Ammunition profile to take in addition to the base profile for an extra 3 points.

Keeping in mind that all the Special Ammo options are limited to being primarily anti-"GEQ/MEQ", with anti-TEQ/-vehicle options being provided by combi-weapons.

This would also provide a little bit of extra flexibility for SoB players, who would be able to choose special SoB-only ammo to go with their Stormbolters.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It also would step on combi-plasma or combi-melta, and that's your anti-vehicle option as a Sgt upgrade. Terminators already have special weapons to increase their anti-vehicle capability.

Assault 3 seems like the winner to me.

I must be honest I wouldn't mind stepping on Combi-plasma and combi-melta. I HATE one use things for the most part. Especially when the one use item is the same cost or more than the actual weapon. I might consider combi weapons on drop pod units like sternguard if they were 5points instead of 10. I think you are right that assault 3 is the best choice. Maybe make special ammo available to terminators and GK that give tesla or gauss for a price increase. That might fix a lot of problems. And terminators could keep the 2 heavy upgrades total and still pack a punch worth their points.

Giving them the Tesla rule (or another rule by a different name that does the same thing) would increase their damage output by 33% for a BS4 model.

I still don't understand what good giving them more S4 shots is going to do.

Assault 3 gives them 3 times the damage of a boltgun at 12"-24" range. I think that's too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't understand what good giving them more S4 shots is going to do.

It would have them kill morel infantry? It's an anti-light infantry weapon.

Alcibiades wrote:
Assault 3 gives them 3 times the damage of a boltgun at 12"-24" range. I think that's too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't understand what good giving them more S4 shots is going to do.

It would have them kill morel infantry? It's an anti-light infantry weapon.

Marines don't need more light anti-infantry fire. Especially coming from an elite slot that gets a unit that can gun down most MCs: Sternguard.

"Assault 3 gives them 3 times the damage of a boltgun at 12"-24" range. I think that's too much."

You could give them this and I still wouldn't take them. You could make it assault 5 and it would still suck because they are 40pt/model and get dusted in the current meta easily. You can stack S4 shooting to the moon and the power lists will still laugh at you.

I still don't understand what good giving them more S4 shots is going to do.

Tesla would let terminators specialize in killing hordes while gauss would handle everything else. Gauss would probably be better for terminators over all. Every 6 on a wound roll would generate a wound vs creatures and MCs and would generate a glancing hit against vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6.

And like I said some special issue ammos might lower RoF to prevent things from getting absurdly crazy and OP. Thought I mentioned that, but I guess I forgot too.

Granted a name change might be in order for imperium armies, but when talking about mechanics identical to tesla and gauss it is easier to just call them that.

And yes these would be upgrades with a point value you them, but I would say a discount for buying one upgrade for an entire squad (and one upgrade only) wouldn't be too unreasonable. After all command squads get bikes for 7pts a piece while a HQ pays 25pts.

Keep in mind the SB competes with Combis, even on Sternguard. There are existing options already to transition away from S4 anti-inf shooting.

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't understand what good giving them more S4 shots is going to do.

Something tells me you haven't been at the recieving end of something like a ravenwing/LRC + banner combo. It's much more frightening than riptides - at least for a footslogging ork player.

Tac Termies stormboters aren't terribly frightening, but many things in the game can't ignore even that. Assault 3 would make them hit harder. I don't think its the right change, but not everything in the game is t4 3+ or nigh innumerable.

If you don't want bolt weapons, don't take them. But some of us do like bolt weapons.

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't understand what good giving them more S4 shots is going to do.

Something tells me you haven't been at the recieving end of something like a ravenwing/LRC + banner combo. It's much more frightening than riptides - at least for a footslogging ork player.

I have. It's meh. I tabled him. Ork players have the Orks to give. Most other lists just ignore it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Tac Termies stormboters aren't terribly frightening, but many things in the game can't ignore even that. Assault 3 would make them hit harder. I don't think its the right change, but not everything in the game is t4 3+ or nigh innumerable.

If you don't want bolt weapons, don't take them. But some of us do like bolt weapons.

Why would you want bolt weapons? At any rate, I don't think it's the right change either, because it's a non-upgrade.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Keep in mind the SB competes with Combis, even on Sternguard. There are existing options already to transition away from S4 anti-inf shooting.

I honestly HATE Combi-weapons. 10pts for a one shot item? NO thank you. And quite frankly the whole combi-weapon needs to be changed. For ten points I better be getting something that I can use more than once. Especially when the upgrade costs the same or more than the actual weapon. But, that is a problem with a LOT of space marine upgrades. They cost too freaking much for what they do. Now if combi-weapons had 3 uses per game or were usable all the time, or costed less, then maybe id like them. And I think more special issue ammo for elites, HQs, and characters is the way to go myself. Sternguard could get the gauss and tesla cheaper and for their bolters and still be able to switch ammos. Terminators I think should get stuck with whatever ammo they take as a unit.

I take them because marines desperately need the dakka on many squads. Adding another bolter-toting goon isn't making a difference. More melta or plasma or grav is.

Martel732 wrote:
I take them because marines desperately need the dakka on many squads. Adding another bolter-toting goon isn't making a difference. More melta or plasma or grav is.

Exactly, target type. You need those weapons for big game hunting (high AV, high T or AP2).

A SB isn't supposed to help you here, since it still doesn't fit your meta. A Combi (despite its price) will.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I take them because marines desperately need the dakka on many squads. Adding another bolter-toting goon isn't making a difference. More melta or plasma or grav is.

Exactly, target type. You need those weapons for big game hunting (high AV, high T or AP2).

A SB isn't supposed to help you here, since it still doesn't fit your meta. A Combi (despite its price) will.

I'm still having trouble imagining a meta where stormbolters mean anything.

I'm still having trouble imagining a meta where stormbolters mean anything.

What exactly is it you want out of a 5 point upgrade? What exactly are you looking for out of units that use them.?

Me personally I want them to be a better choice than the standard bolter, but not some major game breaking item. Yes, I think there should be special issue ammo that makes them significantly better, but only if you pay for it.

I am trying to keep in mind that there are armies that use storm bolters as stock that could use a boost but not too much of one.

Ideally by using existing rules or rules that are easily implemented and don't break the game.

I think assault 3 with access (at a cost) to special issue ammo (only one type per unit) that replaces the profile with the ammo profile. Allowing TDA to fire at snapshots for a full BS during overwatch would all go towards fixing terminators and storm bolters and the units that use storm bolters.

Even if the special ammos step on other army mechanics a bit.

I don't really know, as bad as S4 shooting is now.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't really know, as bad as S4 shooting is now.

What would you think of before mentioned assault 3 rules if there was either a storm bolter upgrade or ammo upgrade making them str 5 ap 5 assault 2, rending?

This would allow storm bolters on a 6 to pen AV12, Glance or Pen AV13, and Glance AV14.

I am still trying to come up with an appropriate points cost and a horde based upgrade that functions similar to tesla, but doesn't step on it.

Str 5 AP 5 assault 2 rending would be a big improvement for sure.

Martel732 wrote:
Str 5 AP 5 assault 2 rending would be a big improvement for sure.

Just to clarify I mean for it to either be an ammo upgrade or an upgrade to storm bolters themselves. I don't want to step on the toes of other weapons and risk making them even worse.

I was thinking of giving storm bolters the option to fire as skyfire weapons but all other shots are made as snapshots.

Or I could give the ability to fire as snapshots during shooting phase to get full bs during overwatch, and TDA allows for shooting snapshots during shooting and overwatch for skyfire and full bs against flyers during shooting phases and overwatch until their next shooting phase.

Stormbolter S is too low to be useful as skyfire.

Martel732 wrote:
Stormbolter S is too low to be useful as skyfire.

by itself yes. But with the upgrade it becomes possible.