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Since they're essentially submachine guns, shouldn't they be:

18" Str4 Ap5 Assault 3?

OR

18" Str4 Ap5 Assault 2 Pinning (so the bolt equivalent of the pulse carbine).

What do you think? Does this better represent them in the fluff? Does it make them more useful in game?

I guess you don't want to make your tac squad sarge better at shotting. I guess you'd like to make tac termis better. As the are veterans, give them access to the sternguard special ammunition. 2 rounds of special ammunition would help a lot.

My fix isn't about any particular unit, but it's about how it doesn't make much sense; how does a submachine gun shoot as far as an assault rifle?

So to reduce the range, they needed to get a slight buff (either one more shot or pinning).

A stormbolter is not a submachinegun, it is more a assault rifle with higher rate of fire. And it has double the rate of fire compared to a bolter between 12" and 24".

As Hohenstein says, a Storm Bolter is not an SMG. It just looks like one because it's being held by a Terminator.

This is what a Storm Bolter looks like in the hands of a human;

 von Hohenstein wrote:
A stormbolter is not a submachinegun, it is more a assault rifle with higher rate of fire. And it has double the rate of fire compared to a bolter between 12" and 24".

It depends what you go by though....

If anyone here played "Space Marine" the computer game (although i don't think that fluff should be looked at too closely). The Bolter is a rifle with stock of ~30. Storm bolter is pretty much a submachinegun with at least triple, 4x rate of fire and magazine of ~50.

Been a while since i played the game though, numbers might be wrong.

Salvo 2/3 or Assault 3 and/or special ammunition. That way, you have a higher rate of fire and are able to get out more potent shots. Terminators are relentless, so it will all be fine with salvo.

Guys, there are basically two tracks SB need to perform along. Right now they try to compete along both with a single profile and it gets awkward. If we separate those jobs and give the SB two shooting profiles, it gets both easier to see and easier to fix.

- Bolter (Rapid Fire, 24")
- Storm Bolter (Rapid Fire 2, 24")
- Hurricane Bolter (Rapid Fire 3, TL, 24")

- Bolt Pistol (Pistol, 12")
- Storm Bolter (Assault 2, 24")
- Combi-Weapon (Various)
- Grav, Plasma (Various)

Giving the SB two distinct profiles, and saying 'choose one' every time you make a shooting attack, might make it easier to fix. It's also a straight improvement for any Relentless platform, like Terminators or vehicles (where it competes poorly against the range 36" Heavy Stubber).

Honestly I think they should revamp the Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter mostly. The regular bolter can get away with being how it is currently, only if it gave tactical marines access to at least one other type of ammo.

Storm bolter should be salvo 2/3 at 24. But sadly, this would hurt GKs the most. Unless it had two modes of fire, the storm bolter needs some work.

Heavy Bolter- Salvo 3/5 with a range of 36. Still S5 AP4.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 von Hohenstein wrote:
A stormbolter is not a submachinegun, it is more a assault rifle with higher rate of fire. And it has double the rate of fire compared to a bolter between 12" and 24".

It depends what you go by though....

If anyone here played "Space Marine" the computer game (although i don't think that fluff should be looked at too closely). The Bolter is a rifle with stock of ~30. Storm bolter is pretty much a submachinegun with at least triple, 4x rate of fire and magazine of ~50.

Been a while since i played the game though, numbers might be wrong.

Exactly where is the 'sub' in the Storm Bolter as a sub machine gun?

Does the Storm Bolter really need a buff? Its firepower isn't great, but doesn't it do what its supposed to?

What platforms are struggling? Tac Termies, sure, but is a storm bolter buff really the right fix?

(I could see rapid fire 2. That could be cool.)

Storm bolter + TDA
Twin linked up to 12 inches
2/4 Salvo up to 12 inches

Non TDA wearing characters/veterans gains acess to special issue ammo instead for their Storm bolters.

Bharring wrote:
Does the Storm Bolter really need a buff? Its firepower isn't great, but doesn't it do what its supposed to?

What platforms are struggling? Tac Termies, sure, but is a storm bolter buff really the right fix?

(I could see rapid fire 2. That could be cool.)

This is why I say give terminators a different weapon.

Or make it clear that Storm Bolters are a token shooting option, and not the point of a Terminator squad.

Bharring wrote:
Or make it clear that Storm Bolters are a token shooting option, and not the point of a Terminator squad.

They need more than token shooting to ever be considered by me at this point, though.

Just make them Combi-Bolters. That re-roll is killer.

Or maybe make them Pistol 2 weapons?

Do you really want naked Tac Termies to be more of a generalist?

Bharring wrote:
Does the Storm Bolter really need a buff? Its firepower isn't great, but doesn't it do what its supposed to?

What platforms are struggling?

Well, it's pretty underwhelming compared to Heavy Stubber. SB has 12" less range and 1 less shot for AP5.

If I am taking a Volleygun/Gatling Taurox Prime, in which the SB has the exact same range band and strength as my other weapons, the Heavy Stubber is probably still a superior choice. So yes, the SB shooting profile is not very attractive. The Assault 2 is nice for non-relentless infantry, but you won't be getting much shooting in if you plan to assault.

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Storm bolter should be salvo 2/3 at 24. But sadly, this would hurt GKs the most. Unless it had two modes of fire, the storm bolter needs some work.

Heavy Bolter- Salvo 3/5 with a range of 36. Still S5 AP4.

Salvo is actually great for the Heavy Bolter. If it's a GPMG equivalent, you can fire it from the hip (very ineffectively, so Salvo). If it's an equivalent of a .50 Cal though, you can't. It then needs to be sited. But Autocannons are much more like a .50 than Heavy Bolters in terms of game role, so it's quite a nice idea in that way. (Lascannons are like a Recoilless Rifle).

Salvo on a SB would really hurt non-Relentless infantry, and it's an option for some. It also doesn't match the bolter progression, as stock and Hurricane bolters are both Rapid Fire.

Nomeny wrote:
Just make them Combi-Bolters. That re-roll is killer.

Combi at 12" = 2 shots twin-linked
Combi at 24" = 1 shot twin-linked

SB at 12" = 4 shots, not TL
SB at 24" = 2 shots, not TL

Rapid Fire would seem to be at least as good as Combi-bolters. Didn't run stats. Preserving the secondary Assault 2 profile just prevents non-Relentless units from being unable to charge. You could add (Assault 2, twin-linked) if it was still a little weak.

Bharring wrote:
What platforms are struggling? Tac Termies, sure, but is a storm bolter buff really the right fix?

Most PAGK and non-GK Terminators (so everything that has a storm bolter as default and isn't a GK Terminator or a Purifier).

A storm bolter fix isn't essential (cost reductions are more important), but it'd certainly help.

It's basically two bolters, so just make it TL Assault 2.

Storm Bolters were, until very recently, much more powerful in the game mechanics than they are in the fluff.

Shuriken Catapults are equal or better than Storm Bolters in every way in the fluff, including range.

So, no, your proposition does not fit the fluff.

SGTPozy wrote:
Since they're essentially submachine guns, shouldn't they be:

18" Str4 Ap5 Assault 3?

OR

18" Str4 Ap5 Assault 2 Pinning (so the bolt equivalent of the pulse carbine).

What do you think? Does this better represent them in the fluff? Does it make them more useful in game?

As many people in this thread have pointed out, Stormbolters are not SMG equivalents. They are, by far, more comparable to a Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). I'd classify them as such primarily due to the fact that in the background SBs are fully compatible with all of the usual Bolter magazine options, allowing munitions to be easily shared out in the squad if a Tac Sarge takes an SB- fluff-wise, at least.

I've mentioned my thoughts on the matter, which I'll repost here:

Whiskey144 wrote:
New Trait: Tearing To-Wound rolls of "1" may be re-rolled; To-Wound rolls of "6" are also Pinning. All Bolt weapons have the Tearing trait.

New Trait: Storm Each successful To-Hit roll counts as two hits, rather than just one.

Stormbolters would then have the following profile:

Range 24" Assault 3 S4 AP5 Tearing, Storm

While it does introduce a few extra rules, which is potentially complicating, I feel that this would vastly improve SB firepower, making it viable in every application that Stormbolters are available for. Of course, this upgrade Stormbolter would potentially be far more useful than a Heavy Stubber, which means we'd need to fix that too, and GKs would have some enormous ripple effects from this, the nature and magnitude of which I have no idea.

Flipside, however, is that any Marine/SoB squad leader/character now has a tough choice to make between a Stormbolter and a combi-weapon (if you're kitting up a shooty squad), while SoB players now have a viable ranged anti-infantry special weapon. Something I see a lot of people forget is that, for whatever reason, Stormbolters are a special weapon choice for the SoB army. This change would certainly make a Stormbolter a competitive choice when weighed against a flamer or meltagun.

natpri771 wrote:
*blithering about Salvo Stormbolters

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
*more blithering about Salvo Stormbolters

How many people does it take to realize that Salvo cuts your range in half if you move an inch. Almost every single time I see a "Stormbolters should be Salvo" comment, it's always "Salvo 2/whatever". I say "2/whatever", because your stationary RoF is irrelevant when you consider that your moving RoF is identical to a Rapid Firing Bolter and cannot fire past 12"- unlike that Bolter.

How about some examples of Salvo weapons, so we can see which are actually good on non-Relentless/SnP models, and which are most definitely not:

Case Study: DE Splinter Cannons

DE Splinter Cannons are basically a Splinter Rifle pumped up on whatever bizarre eldritch things the DE like to snort. The weapon offers a vast increase in firepower against targets which you want to fire Splinter Rifles at. Being Salvo 4/6 and 36" of range means that on the move it's half-range value is 18", and it still provides twice as many shots when in the 12" Rapid Fire range of Splinter Rifles. Not only that, but it even offers a 6" band where it provides 300% more shots than a Splinter Rifle, even if it's followed by the 18-24" band where Splinter Rifles can still fire and a moving, non-Relentless Splinter Cannon can't. If you do sit still, then the Cannon gets 50% more range, and from 0-12" you have 200% more shots, from 12-24" you have 500% more shots, and from 24-36" you would have infinity more shots as the Splinter Rifle then runs out of range.

Cannon Pros: more dakka at almost every range band, and longer overall range.
Verdict: VIABLE

Case Study: IG Hotshot Volley Guns

The HSVG is a Salvo 2/4 gun with 24" of range. It's accompanying rifle is the Hotshot Lasgun, at Rapid Fire 18". HSVGs also have +1S in comparison to the HS Lasgun. When on the move, the HSVG offers slightly better performance in the 0-9" band where the Lasgun can double tap, thanks to the HSVG's +1S benefit. From 9-12", the edge of on-the-move Salvo range, you get 100% more shots and +1 Strength. If you are moving, then you do have a somewhat large band of 12-18" where the HSVG can't fire due to being out of range, however, sitting still offers an enormous increase in performance.

The HSVG isn't quite as good of a Salvo weapon as the Splinter Cannon- the range and RoF differences aren't really that great if your mans are walking around, but the HSVG does offer +1S compared to the HS Lasgun, so that gives it a little bit better of an edge in comparison to the latter.

HSVG Pros: +1S, slightly better range, better RoF when camping.
Verdict: USABLE

Case Study: SM Grav Guns

Grav Guns seem to break most of the rules that are starting to form about Salvo weapons- that in order to be decent and usable they have to offer better RoF, better range, and/or some other trait that makes them better than the basic infantry weapon a unit carries. Grav Guns, however, cheat around this by being AP2 and having a special rule to wound on the same roll as the target's armor save. The flipside is that Grav Guns fulfill a different role compared to the basic infantry weapons; they excel at murdering 2+ save anything, particularly if you manage to get them into range of say, a Riptide (nearly impossible, but would have spectacular effect on target).

Grav Guns are, however, 18" range and Salvo 2/3, so giving them to a Tactical or Sternguard Marine is kind of limiting- if you have them move around, it'll only have 9" of range, and Grav weapons are pretty bad at killing light infantry. This being said, Grav weapons do excel at killing things that a bolter-toting squad usually has trouble with, so it does offer increased capability. Alas, Grav Guns are pretty terrible on anything that isn't either Bikers or DevCents, since Bikers are Relentless and DevCents are SnP.

Grav Gun Pros: murdering 2+ armor anything, AP2
Verdict: VIABLE on select units (Bikers/DevCents); PASSABLE on everything else

Case Study: GK Psycannons

And here we come to one that is borderline useless if you're not Relentless. Psycannons are Salvo 2/4, 24" range. Oh, hey, the exact same RoF+range combination that's often suggested for Stormbolters to 'fix' them. The only redeeming qualities of Psycannons on non-Relentless models (IE, PAGKs) is that Psycannons are S7 and Rending.

That's it. That's the only thing they have going for them. Granted, the current meta of 7th is to spam as many S6/7 weapons as you can, which theoretically makes Psycannons the absolute bomb given you can get them on almost everything in a GK list... except for that range if you want to move around.

Stormbolters, OTOH, would not have the almost-redemptive qualities of S7/Rending.

Verdict: TERRIBLE unless you're Relentless. Then they're pretty chill.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Bharring wrote:
What platforms are struggling? Tac Termies, sure, but is a storm bolter buff really the right fix?

Most PAGK and non-GK Terminators (so everything that has a storm bolter as default and isn't a GK Terminator or a Purifier).

A storm bolter fix isn't essential (cost reductions are more important), but it'd certainly help.

AnomanderRake is mostly right, as I would amend his sentiment to be "almost anything that can take a Stormbolter". Often times the options are "combi weapon OR Stormbolter". Guess what never gets picked?

Then there's vehicles, where a Stormbolter is almost invariably passed over unless you just want a cheap spare gun to soak Weapon Destroyed results. Which is about the only use vehicles have for Stormbolters these days.

I feel like the posts about salvo storm bolters have a fair amount of merit. I mean, of course the content is really weak and hard to respect. However, sometimes posting in proposed rules isn't about earnestly seeking good rules, it's about quacking. So maybe those are very successful posts.

When I'm trying out new rules, it is somewhere that uses house rules, obviously. So I always value Martel732, because the ideal rule, even if it is fluffy or narrative, functions perfectly in a non-fluffy, non-narrative competition.

What I get from that principle, is that if you take a storm bolter and make it assault 4, shred, and pinning, you have done effectively nothing. Even a full, ten model tactical squad upgraded to these weapons is not worth additional points, because its power is against a narrow group of low-priority targets that are often entirely absent from the opposing army.

You have a straight up tactical squad with bolters, and your new weapon traits, or straight up shred and pinning, but the problems are that first, the point of the squad is still theoretically to deploy a plasma gun, or melta gun, or missile launcher, and second, if you are facing mechanized-anything, or Necrons, or MEq anything, your bolters are exercises for you dice hands, if you use them at all.


Speaking of exercises, Tearing adds an additional set of dice to roll to the shooting of every single unit in the army, even though it doesn't add any new capability, e.g. penetrating vehicles, piercing armor, wounding MCs, to the gun. I like rules like gauss or bladestorm, that do allow new things, but use the same dice rolls that would be made with regular las rifles.


Ok, it is a mistake to change the storm bolter without considering that all bolt guns can change. However, I want to use the same dice rolls, and I want to do something new. E.g.: Rolls to wound of six count as a strength 8 weapon. You can wound wraithknights, you can pen most FNP and WBB, you can ID. Like I say though: "example;" that try has some problems.

Fixing Storm Bolters. ......

Done. See what I did just then? the answer is nothing which is what would fix a storm bolter.

Its 2 bolters strapped side by side and it gets assault 2 instead of rapid fire. Furthermore its only two points more expensive then a twin linked shoota which is AP6 and 18inch range. So garbage compared to a storm bolter. Stop complaining about every aspect of terminators.

No, the storm bolter is perhaps the worst part of terminators.

for how cheap it is its amazing. your idea of equipping everyone with assault cannons would break the game.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
for how cheap it is its amazing. your idea of equipping everyone with assault cannons would break the game.

Hardly. Eldar run around with that kind of firepower and no one bats an eye. On fast platforms to boot.

Yes but they don't run around DS and having 5 of them lumped into a single unit. not to mention the high leadership and 2+ save and 5+ invul

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Yes but they don't run around DS and having 5 of them lumped into a single unit. not to mention the high leadership and 2+ save and 5+ invul

Warp spider's mobility is more valuable than 2+/5++. Especially for the price difference. Even if you give them assault cannons, they are completely inferior to grav cents. That tells you how bad they are now.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Yes but they don't run around DS and having 5 of them lumped into a single unit. not to mention the high leadership and 2+ save and 5+ invul

Warp spider's mobility is more valuable than 2+/5++. Especially for the price difference. Even if you give them assault cannons, they are completely inferior to grav cents. That tells you how bad they are now.

your right, being able to move closer to the gunz that are mowing you down is way more valuable then being able to save the number of wounds your getting.