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 kencotter wrote:

 Gantoris wrote:
My understanding of the process is they are grabbed from the world of origin and put in massive barges for transit. They are stuck on these barges for a long time as they go where needed and this serves as the training center. They are defiantly cannon fodder but they are not just untrained muppets as you suggest, they would be no different from a modern infantry soldier in terms of training.

Any cheap way to make them more effective like drugs would be on the table because in the grimdark world no one cares about long term health issue.

you need to read the book fifteen hours its called that cause its the average lifespan of a guardsmen from enlistment to death its a great read and portrays what its really like to be in the guard

Would they not spend more then 15 hours in transit to anywhere? lol

i cant remember if the first transit they make is included or if its the time from when they hit the ground been awhile since i read it

 Gantoris wrote:
People going on about truescale marines and mutilating the minis to make these mutants is a real bugbear for me, it confuses the hell out of me. Space Marines are not giants they are 7-8foot tall fully armored which is tall but not any taller than people today can be (Basketball players ect...), you know what else tall and intimidating in the 40k universe? Everything!! The Orks your marines are on the table with are supposed to be huge scary things, Eldar are considered tall compared to Humans, Tyranids/Necrons are as tall as they want to be and your Chaos counterparts are also the correct height. In an effort to make Marines seem bigger compared to imperial guard people make them look wrong compared to every other mini that exists and wrong vs any army you will play against, especially crazy considering guard are supposed to be pretty strong/healthy examples of what a human can be.

Looking back i don't mean this to sound as bitchy as it probably does , i dont care what people do with their own minis but am curious about the thinking behind it since doesn't appear to be supported at all in lore yet i keep seeing horribly deformed spindly legged marines out there.

I agree with you. All sources say that Marine models are in the proper scale. I disagree about this in all cases though, as there will be certain situations where artistic license can look cool.

Personally, its not the height that is an issue with the marines "scale" but the proportions of legs to arm to abdomen ratio.

Most space marine models have stumpy legs and no abdomen to speak of. The same goes for guardsmen but its not as noticeable (for me at least). I cant stand gw scale space marines. However, properly scaled and proportioned marines still can look a bit strange to the eye when they are not in some, whacky squating pose. Those straight legs with the shoulder pads sticking out. My eyes dont agree with it but its correct! I also find the standard gw space marine helmet to be slightly too massive

The other reason people true scale/art scale/upscale or whatever the cool kids are callingit these days, is because its something different to try, I dont really play 40k much any more, im more into the modelling and painting side of things and upscaling the marines is just another thing to try. It beats just taking them out of the box and slapping them together (unless thats your thing)

In my upscaled marines (that i really should get back to finishing) The only real thing that needs adding is an abdomen. and then they look normal to me.

 kencotter wrote:

 Gantoris wrote:
Any cheap way to make them more effective like drugs would be on the table because in the grimdark world no one cares about long term health issue.

you need to read the book fifteen hours its called that cause its the average lifespan of a guardsmen from enlistment to death its a great read and portrays what its really like to be in the guard

Sounds like a great book, ive never read any of the 40k fiction mostly because every time i look i get completely baffled about where to start. I just consume fluff entries in codexs non stop and read wikis ect, am obsessed with GW lore prolly have both my fav Sci Fi and Fantasy universes. I did look it up on Lexicanum tho and in the plot description it says...

"After four months of basic training and seven weeks of Planetary transportation, seventeen year old Guardsman Arvin Larn of 6th Company, Jumael 14th Volunteers, embarks on his first campaign fighting against a rebel uprising. However, due to an error in communication, Trooper Larn finds himself fighting on the wrong planet in the wrong war zone at the city of Broucheroc"

So that's 4 months + 7 weeks (They train in transit this much i know) this is more training than modern soldiers receive (6 weeks basic if im not mistaken) and also plenty of time to pump them full of testosterone and steroids ect...

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
Personally, its not the height that is an issue with the marines "scale" but the proportions of legs to arm to abdomen ratio.

Most space marine models have stumpy legs and no abdomen to speak of. The same goes for guardsmen but its not as noticeable (for me at least). I cant stand gw scale space marines. However, properly scaled and proportioned marines still can look a bit strange to the eye when they are not in some, whacky squating pose. Those straight legs with the shoulder pads sticking out. My eyes dont agree with it but its correct! I also find the standard gw space marine helmet to be slightly too massive

The other reason people true scale/art scale/upscale or whatever the cool kids are callingit these days, is because its something different to try, I dont really play 40k much any more, im more into the modelling and painting side of things and upscaling the marines is just another thing to try. It beats just taking them out of the box and slapping them together (unless thats your thing)

In my upscaled marines (that i really should get back to finishing) The only real thing that needs adding is an abdomen. and then they look normal to me.

Spoiler:

Admitidly my putty skills are on par with that of a 5 year old child but you get the idea (not even close to gogsnik's skill!)


Please forgive the whacky legs. Still getting the hang of it



And to put my upscaled marine up against a standard gw

I agree that its an interesting challenge and must say your one is one of the best attempts i have seen but this goes back to what we were saying before, marines are not deformed thay are in a cartoon style on purpose. All of there proportions are perfectly fine compared to eachother because stylistically it all goes together and nearly always when people truescale it breaks the inherent look of the mini and the result is awful. Trying to forcibly change the artistic vision of a piece is to me mind a fools errand, esspecially considering that the problem only exists vs 1 of the many factions.

I much prefer true scale marines. Especially compared to squating pose marines.

If you don't like them that's fine but to say you destroy the artistic vision in doing them or that you are crazy to want to do them just seems a little stupid to me. Sometimes people like something you don't and that's ok. True scaling / tall scaling a marine doesn't destroy the artistic vision of the model any more than any other conversion does.

I genuinely don't mean to seem like im passing some sort of judgement on people or telling them what to do with their own minis. I just disagree with you and wanted to chat about it, mebe learn the thinking behind it.

When im talking about "Ruining the artistic vision" i perhaps don't mean it as seriously as it sounds but i get frustrated when people talk about how standard marines look "Deformed" or whatever. They are Cartoonish on purpose, that is the chosen style of all GW stuff so making little changes to try and fight that seems futile.

If you could make your WoW toon (assuming you play/played it) look photo realistic using all the latest graphics potential of PC's would it look good Vs the rest of the game or would you look horribly out of place and ruin the look of the game world?

My personal biggest beef is marines aren't even in scale with other marine models.

Terminator armor is bulkier, but it doesn't somehow make the marine taller. Why a marine donning terminator armor somehow grows like a foot and arms extend an extra foot in length eludes me.

It's always amusing to see what aspect of our toy soldiers hobby gets people hot under the collar. For some people it's gee-dub's, err, 'interesting' scaling.

Personally I'm not a fan of true scale marines as more often than not they just end up looking like marshmallow men in power armour with even worse proportions than the original models. Even the very best examples still end up looking a bit off imo (probably due to being so used to regular sized marines).

But, you know, different strokes for different folks and all that. If people want to spend the time and money on true-scaling their marines and like the results then let them.

Being a 'nid player, I am really amused by the complaints in this thread when it comes to people making true scale marines. If there's any one army that's horribly off when it comes to scale on the table, it's tyranids. Making true scale 'nids....GOOD LUCK.

Personally, I don't care. If you want to make true scale marines, go for it. I probably won't be super thrilled if you try to play with a complete army of them, but since it would take you forever and a day to do that, well....

As for the WoW comment, I know there were pictures floating around a few months back...Blizzard redid quite a few of the character models, and overall they look quite a bit less cartoony now, with some horrifying results.

I still haven't gotten around to reading 40k fiction (I have so many other books I keep reading instead), but the advice given is typically start with the horus heresy. Otherwise Dan Abnett, and Graham McNeill, are widely considered to be the best authors for warhammer fiction, so you can always start with some of the books they've written. Or, pick your main army and go with some of the books for your faction.

 CShaffer wrote:

 kencotter wrote:

 Gantoris wrote:
My understanding of the process is they are grabbed from the world of origin and put in massive barges for transit. They are stuck on these barges for a long time as they go where needed and this serves as the training center. They are defiantly cannon fodder but they are not just untrained muppets as you suggest, they would be no different from a modern infantry soldier in terms of training.

Any cheap way to make them more effective like drugs would be on the table because in the grimdark world no one cares about long term health issue.

you need to read the book fifteen hours its called that cause its the average lifespan of a guardsmen from enlistment to death its a great read and portrays what its really like to be in the guard

Would they not spend more then 15 hours in transit to anywhere? lol

The full title of the book is:
Basic Training: Four Months, Planetary Transportation: Seven Weeks, Life Expectancy...
FIFTEEN HOURS

The core rule book for Only War has a good insight into the average IG's training, from snatch to drop. There's a guardsman's diary appears in segments throughout - things like training on the journey are touched upon, from which end of the gun to told, to servitors using live rounds, etc.
For the sake of plot, the guard survives the duration, but his wide eyed attitude changes to one of resolve and futility.
It's not perfect, but it's a bottled look.

 Schlyne wrote:
Being a 'nid player, I am really amused by the complaints in this thread when it comes to people making true scale marines. If there's any one army that's horribly off when it comes to scale on the table, it's tyranids. Making true scale 'nids....GOOD LUCK.

Nids can be whatever size the choose to be surely? They cant really not be in scale, same for the Necrons tbh.

 Gantoris wrote:
I genuinely don't mean to seem like im passing some sort of judgement on people or telling them what to do with their own minis. I just disagree with you and wanted to chat about it, mebe learn the thinking behind it.

When im talking about "Ruining the artistic vision" i perhaps don't mean it as seriously as it sounds but i get frustrated when people talk about how standard marines look "Deformed" or whatever. They are Cartoonish on purpose, that is the chosen style of all GW stuff so making little changes to try and fight that seems futile.

I understand that they are cartoonish on purpose but in my senile old age the look of the space marine model doesn't match my ideas of what space marines look like. I personally want my space marines (I don't game with them remember) to look realistic or close to what I think they should look like. There's no denying that astartes models are deformed/cartoonish but some of us just can't stand it. I've been looking into making some 1:32 scale imperial guard and when U browse through historical minis. The flaws in gw design scream out at you more and more.

IG models don't bother me nearly as much as astartes models but im starting to notice it more and more. I tried making a guard squad armed to the teeth but all the extras (grenades, pouches, knives etc) are just so huge that the models start to look silly. I've yet to try with marines but I bet it looks even more out of place on them.

If U have only ever played with gw minis then maybe U won't notice but start using others that are correctly proportioned then it becomes irksome.

I can't remember if these are 28mm but they better represents my vision of a correctly proportioned space marine (even though its a little off in some areas)

I hear ya, and to me doing it purely for display purposes is different to when folks do it for tabletop and put them next to the now midget looking orks the will be fighting. Tho this collecting minis and never playing the game business is something else ill never understand!

I guess my problem is when the original purposefully cartoonish style is just dismissed as a flaw, i love that 2000ADish comic book look. They scream the British 80s culture behind their conception loud and proud and it gives them a really nice unique feel compared the competition. Any person on this forum would recognize a citadel mini a mile away, the style is part of what makes them so special.

 Gantoris wrote:
I hear ya, and to me doing it purely for display purposes is different to when folks do it for tabletop and put them next to the now midget looking orks the will be fighting. Tho this collecting minis and never playing the game business is something else ill never understand!

I guess my problem is when the original purposefully cartoonish style is just dismissed as a flaw, i love that 2000ADish comic book look. They scream the British 80s culture behind their conception loud and proud and it gives them a really nice unique feel compared the competition. Any person on this forum would recognize a citadel mini a mile away, the style is part of what makes them so special.

DOnt get me wrong I do play 40k occasionally just not smXD

I think one of the other reasons is its at the point where the 80's style is totally alien to a lot of gamers today. I'm 26 and missed out on all the badassness of rogue trader, early 40k. D&D (ok im no stranger but its not as popular as it used to be im told).

I look at some of the early artwork from gw and personally find it horrible but at the same time its kind of cool.

Reading some of the books and playing some of the pc games make it out to be super duper Sci fi serious. I always try to relate it to starwars to ease some of my pain. Back then cheese was the in thing. Gw needs to get with the times XD some of the recent art has the grimness of the 41st millenium but the models dont. well some do. Its like they can't decide weather to keep the 80's style or do a major overhall so we end up with a mix of models with varying sculpts.

The style and the dark humor are kinda separate tho, i mean im mostly with you when it comes to tone. I love the that the lore has evolved into what it is, the Grimdarkness of the far future is probably by far my fav sci fi universe. The word cartoon is not really adequate to what i mean because it seems childish, this is why i try to use comic book instead.

Many animated "Cartooney" things can be dark and serious, i could cite many examples of Japanese animation that demonstrate this but im sure you are probably familiar with them. 2000AD which is very stylistically similar to Old Skool GW had its serious moments to.

In a perfect world the humor side of GW could have lived on in the smaller fun games like Blood Bowl, but alas thats not to be. They have always remained true to that "Comic Book" look tho, which i admit is a matter of taste but it is what sets Citadel's work apart.

 Gantoris wrote:
People going on about truescale marines and mutilating the minis to make these mutants is a real bugbear for me, it confuses the hell out of me. Space Marines are not giants they are 7-8foot tall fully armored which is tall but not any taller than people today can be (Basketball players ect...),

Yeah... about that "basketball players" comment...



The issue isn't that just IG are out of scale but frankly everything is if marines are really 8ft tall (which is their height in their power armor) and marines aren't just bigger in a single dimension (height) in the fluff. Truescale brings the minis closer to what they're actually supposed to be. The current marines are way too small next to everyone but orks. Those other models have their own issues about various parts of them being "heroic" scaled like the giant IG hands and head but either the marines dimensions are completely off or everyone else is. I chose the simpler option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
Being entirely honest, I agree with you. Put a Space Marine mini next to an Eldar, Necron, Tau or SoB mini and they are perfectly in scale. The issue is the ape-proportioned Guardsmen, swap them out for properly scaled infantry (Mantic, Forge World, Vic Minis) and the problem goes away.

However, Truescaling does have a place, and that is when minis go beyond gaming pieces to become artistic displays. There are some amazing things done with TS Marines as part of dioramas or such.

See the above image. Also, the one below... Sisters in the art are not particularly taller beyond what their ridiculuous stripper fetish high heels give them so would generally come in at 6ft as above putting them roughly the same height as IG. The height of those human models is in scale with each other (even if the features on the guardsmen are "heroic"/freakish like their hands and head) but they don't mesh at all with marine models. The standard GW and FW marines simply don't convey the 8ft tall steroid freak in power armor look that accurately describes what marines are in the fluff. Truescaling them (via on of the multiple methods) does succeed in doing that. It may not be perfect but you get the appropriate sense of scale/size when doing so. Of course, I am biased as the weedy size of space marines is a particular pet peeve of mine that largely convinced me to make some truescale marines.



From L to R:

Normal human
Normal human in power armor (so an SOB equivalent)
Astartes in Power armor
Normal human in terminator armor
Astartes in Terminator armor

It's not perfect obviously but IMO it's better than the scale differences in the official models. YMMV.

I agree they could be a bit taller compared to guard but disagree vs everything else, Tyranids, Deamons, Necrons can be any size they want so scale is relative there (them all suddenly looking puny to marines is still silly tho) and both Orks and Eldar should be taller than an average human and thus similar enough to SMs not to need any changes. Chaos Marines are obviously supposed to be the same as normal marines and this leaves only the Tau who to be honest im am quite unfamiliar with.

And as i have argued i think its reasonable to assume the average height/bulk of an IG soldier is noticeably above today's average height.

 Gantoris wrote:


And as i have argued i think its reasonable to assume the average height/bulk of an IG soldier is noticeably above today's average height.

I can't think of a single thing in the fluff that I've ever seen that would support that. Could some IG from a low grav planet be on average taller (but then also thinner)? Sure. Could particularly rich regiments like Vostroyans be taller due to good nutrition throughout their lives? Sure, but humans on average are not currently getting taller as we're pretty much in western countries at the max average. In the past, the majority of the reasons for shorter average height was actually due to chronic malnutrition rather than actual changes in height. This is backed up from studies done comparing asian heights from 3rd world nations to immigrants born and raised in 1st world ones from the same region. While some IG may indeed be taller than modern humans, there is nothing to indicate that the "average" height/bulk of an IG is noticeably above todays's soldiers average height. If anything, the regiments from poorer planets like hive worlds would bring that average down due to malnutrion. Sorry but if you want to consider your IG as on average 7ft tall ballers that's fine but GW and the 40k universe don't agree. If anything, the grimdark universe supports that life on average throughout the Imperium is pretty bad (hence the grimdark) and I'd guess that the average height is actually lower. Of course, that is just a guess with no actual facts from GW to back it up. I do however have a copy of the IG primer book GW came out with so I'll have to see tonight if they comment on height in there.

 warboss wrote:

 Gantoris wrote:


And as i have argued i think its reasonable to assume the average height/bulk of an IG soldier is noticeably above today's average height.

I can't think of a single thing in the fluff that I've ever seen that would support that. Could some IG from a low grav planet be on average taller (but then also thinner)? Sure. Could particularly rich regiments like Vostroyans be taller due to good nutrition throughout their lives? Sure, but humans on average are not currently getting taller as we're pretty much in western countries at the max average. In the past, the majority of the reasons for shorter average height was actually due to chronic malnutrition rather than actual changes in height. This is backed up from studies done comparing asian heights from 3rd world nations to immigrants born and raised in 1st world ones from the same region. While some IG may indeed be taller than modern humans, there is nothing to indicate that the "average" height/bulk of an IG is noticeably above todays's soldiers average height. If anything, the regiments from poorer planets like hive worlds would bring that average down due to malnutrion. Sorry but if you want to consider your IG as on average 7ft tall ballers that's fine but GW and the 40k universe don't agree. If anything, the grimdark universe supports that life on average throughout the Imperium is pretty bad (hence the grimdark) and I'd guess that the average height is actually lower. Of course, that is just a guess with no actual facts from GW to back it up. I do however have a copy of the IG primer book GW came out with so I'll have to see tonight if they comment on height in there.

The average guardsman is above and beyond the average soldier in the Imperium, those being PDF troopers. I feel it's safe to assume then that their average girth/height is larger than an average civilians. The most physically capable humans today are much larger than the average person, but the guardsmen minis are a little wonked.

I do not believe that I have ever read fluff supporting Imperial Guardsmen being physically finer specimens of humanity than any other citizenry, soldier or otherwise. Codex Astra Militarium under Infantry Platoons - Conscripts reads:

"Conscripts are raised in times of desperation, barely trained masses of esxpendable bodies best employed manning fortifications or impeding the foe's movements"

it's worth noting that while Conscripts are less skilled (WS2/BS2 versus 3 for Guardsman), they are all S3 T3 1W I3. IG Infantry Platoons are also describd as being "perhaps even cheaper for the Munitorum to replace [than the lasguns with which they are armed]".

That being said, the fluff does support certain Imperial Guard regiments being more warrior-like than others; for instance, Cadians are all battle-trained from youth, and one could assume that all that warrior breeding would result in bigger, stronger adults -- a la Sparta.

I could agree that cadians would be leaner but likely not "bigger" due to the constant war status of the planet. It would be more like an 1980's beastmaster physique and not a schwarzeneggar one or god forbid a Game of Thrones "mountain" one that the OP is proposing as the standard IG human. It's hard to get all those vitamins, minerals, protein, and calories when perpetually at war; there isn't anything to indicate that has changed in the grimdark future and certainly isn't the case in the present. The only fluff that says any IG regiment that I know of is "bigger" is for Catachan regiments that are modelled and described as 80's action stars ala the team from the first predator movie.

In any case, the biggest catachan would still be dwarfed by the average astartes... and in the 40k model range (to bring the thread a big back on track), every IG is modelled like the biggest catachan. Sorry, OP, but your thread title's tone is needlessly aggressive and a huge (pun intended) exaggeration. It's more accurate to say it's "insane" to think that marines are well scaled as is. Truescaling though does present in game issues especially if you mount them on 40mm cinematic bases that better fit the models. If you don't bulk up the marines, you can still use the 25/30mm ones without an issue but if you use the terminator parts instead (the other easier route that requires less sculpting by the modeller) then you'll definitely have overhang on 25mm and probably on 30mm (don't own any of those so can't say for sure).

 Gantoris wrote:
Yeah but i don't think the scale difference between IG and SM is as big as people think it is so ultimately you do more harm than good stretching Marines, smaller Guard is defiantly the way to go if this is a huge problem for someone. And i still don't agree IG are just utterly green hopeless civilians, they are cannon fodder for sure but they are trained and equipped en-route over a decent amount of time. And it really isn't much of a stretch to think they probably get performance enhancing drugs, steroids and testosterone during this period because it would be a very cheap way to increase performance of your ground army. This explains perfectly the chunky body builder look of GW imperial guard and further negates the problem with height vs Space Marines.

I stand by this assumption, they get months of training and no one cares about the long term health of these men. I have always just assumed the body builder buff look of guard was due to extreme training regime and performance enhancing chemicals. This fits the design choices and is perfectly reasonable to imagine in the lore.

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
Personally, its not the height that is an issue with the marines "scale" but the proportions of legs to arm to abdomen ratio.

Most space marine models have stumpy legs and no abdomen to speak of. The same goes for guardsmen but its not as noticeable (for me at least). I cant stand gw scale space marines. However, properly scaled and proportioned marines still can look a bit strange to the eye when they are not in some, whacky squating pose. Those straight legs with the shoulder pads sticking out. My eyes dont agree with it but its correct! I also find the standard gw space marine helmet to be slightly too massive

The other reason people true scale/art scale/upscale or whatever the cool kids are callingit these days, is because its something different to try, I dont really play 40k much any more, im more into the modelling and painting side of things and upscaling the marines is just another thing to try. It beats just taking them out of the box and slapping them together (unless thats your thing)

In my upscaled marines (that i really should get back to finishing) The only real thing that needs adding is an abdomen. and then they look normal to me.

Spoiler:

Admitidly my putty skills are on par with that of a 5 year old child but you get the idea (not even close to gogsnik's skill!)


Please forgive the whacky legs. Still getting the hang of it



And to put my upscaled marine up against a standard gw

They're good, I just get the feeling like the torso is stretched just a little too much though.

My initial response is... lol, look at the guardsman, he looks like he's thinking ;'what the hell am I looking at' as he looks at the marine to his right >.>

"Truescale" is pointless and isn't even true scale.

 Melissia wrote:
"Truescale" is pointless and isn't even true scale.

You are a brave man to speak such heresy!

I personally took a personal artistic choice destined to make my own toy soldiers look better until I decide to smash/sell them because their pointlessness bothers me too much.

but to each his own, I don't even care about GW in general, much less their fluff so I am free to do what I want.

Anyway, Melissia is right, truescale is pointless, so are many other things, that doesn't mean some people will not choose to keep doing them.

 Melissia wrote:

"Truescale" is pointless and isn't even true scale.

+1
I could see the appeal of a correctly scaled universe ~ but trying to fix pieces purposefully scaled 'wrong' is futile. One would need to start from the ground up and resculpt the entire lot. As pointed out in the thread, the marines arent even the worst offenders, its the human that is being compared to which is far more twisted out of proportions.
And its making the 10 men in a Rhino joke even more ridiculous.

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
"Truescale" is pointless and isn't even true scale.

man

Er we go

HairySticks wrote:


+1
I could see the appeal of a correctly scaled universe ~ but trying to fix pieces purposefully scaled 'wrong' is futile. One would need to start from the ground up and resculpt the entire lot. As pointed out in the thread, the marines arent even the worst offenders, its the human that is being compared to which is far more twisted out of proportions.
And its making the 10 men in a Rhino joke even more ridiculous.

I agree. Though at a bigger scale like the old inquisitor stuff i think it kinda matters.

 aldo wrote:
I personally took a personal artistic choice destined to make my own toy soldiers look better until I decide to smash/sell them because their pointlessness bothers me too much.

but to each his own, I don't even care about GW in general, much less their fluff so I am free to do what I want.

Anyway, Melissia is right, truescale is pointless, so are many other things, that doesn't mean some people will not choose to keep doing them.

Gotta love that Nihilism, nothing really matters so who cares!