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Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver






 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
While masculinity and femininity (gender) is based on the brain, male and female (sex) is based on genitals. While you can be whatever gender you want, you can't just say "I'm now female" if you have male genitalia (or "I'm now male" if you have female genitalia).

Most of them time I've been getting the impression that people have been talking about sex, not gender, but not making that entirely clear (though I could be wrong about that).




From the other thread, Im going to quote this again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome

Which sex you are can be pretty complicated and isnt necessarily based on what genitalia you have

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The whole issue seems to be nothing to do with sex or gender, and everything to do with social morals. The woman who complained didn't like someone she perceived as being a man in the changing room with her because her social morals tell her it is wrong. It's not about being raped, or sexual assault, but the same thing that keeps women only gym time going. I find it all very odd, given that there is far more likely to be someone who is lesbian than someone who is trans in the changing room with her.

Why do we have separate changing rooms for men and women? Nothing more than social morals and puritanism. Personally I think all gyms and swimming pools should have unisex, individual changing cubicals. Having to be naked in front of people puts the people who need to exercise off most.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/10 13:21:50


 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in ie
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

I'm still baffled at how backwards the UK/US is in regards to sex/nudity compared to the rest of the world, whilst being just as backwards about violence.

This wouldn't be an issue in, say, Germany or Eastern Europe, or India.

It would in Japan, but even they have a lot of unisex baths.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Herzlos wrote:
I'm still baffled at how backwards the UK/US is in regards to sex/nudity compared to the rest of the world, whilst being just as backwards about violence.

This wouldn't be an issue in, say, Germany or Eastern Europe, or India.

It would in Japan, but even they have a lot of unisex baths.


Wait, people in Europe take baths?
I'd think you'd have a problem in India. It would be a problem in the Americas and Africa.
And if it were in certain parts of the ME, it wouldn't be an issue either as the unfortunate would have already been pitched off a roof.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/10 13:29:06


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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North Carolina

 Frazzled wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
I'm still baffled at how backwards the UK/US is in regards to sex/nudity compared to the rest of the world, whilst being just as backwards about violence.

This wouldn't be an issue in, say, Germany or Eastern Europe, or India.

It would in Japan, but even they have a lot of unisex baths.


Wait, people in Europe take baths?
I'd think you'd have a problem in India. It would be a problem in the Americas and Africa.
And if it were in certain parts of the ME, it wouldn't be an issue either as the unfortunate would have already been pitched off a roof.


inorite? #firstworldproblems

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in ie
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

Every other month, whether we need one or not.

It's bizarre - in the UK/US - Nudity is seriously taboo but violence is fine, but in Germany/Japan nudity is no big deal at all but violence is censored.
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver






Herzlos wrote:
I'm still baffled at how backwards the UK/US is in regards to sex/nudity compared to the rest of the world, whilst being just as backwards about violence.

This wouldn't be an issue in, say, Germany or Eastern Europe, or India.

It would in Japan, but even they have a lot of unisex baths.


Parts of Eastern Europe maybe, but I imagine that transgender individuals would just be lumped in with homosexual individuals and not treated very nicely at all.

Having been in a park in Berlin and seen people, shall we say, "hanging out", you're probably ok with Germany.

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Outflanking

 Steve steveson wrote:
The whole issue seems to be nothing to do with sex or gender, and everything to do with social morals. The woman who complained didn't like someone she perceived as being a man in the changing room with her because her social morals tell her it is wrong. It's not about being raped, or sexual assault, but the same thing that keeps women only gym time going. I find it all very odd, given that there is far more likely to be someone who is lesbian than someone who is trans in the changing room with her.

Why do we have separate changing rooms for men and women? Nothing more than social morals and puritanism. Personally I think all gyms and swimming pools should have unisex, individual changing cubicals. Having to be naked in front of people puts the people who need to exercise off most.


Either this, or age-segregate them. Either way, lets avoid having to watch flabby 50-somethings stroll around in the buff.

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A: A Maniraptor 
   
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Greater Portland Petting Zoo

 lord_blackfang wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
The gym I go to has unisex changing rooms. It's glorious.


How does that work exactly?


There are naked college-age boobies everywhere and you pretend not to see them while you change. It is somewhat of an ordeal.


Good lord, that would be exhausting. I'd rather not have to walk around the, staring at the floor, repeating the mantra "don't get a boner, don't get a boner, don't get a boner.' feth, that sounds like high school all over again!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/10 14:25:09


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Herzlos wrote:
Every other month, whether we need one or not.

It's bizarre - in the UK/US - Nudity is seriously taboo but violence is fine, but in Germany/Japan nudity is no big deal at all but violence is censored.


Thats what happens when you get the kicked out of you by the Mighty US of HURR!!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Herzlos wrote:
I'm still baffled at how backwards the UK/US is in regards to sex/nudity compared to the rest of the world, whilst being just as backwards about violence.

This wouldn't be an issue in, say, Germany or Eastern Europe, or India.

It would in Japan, but even they have a lot of unisex baths.


Ah, yes. India. That noted bastion of women's rights.
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





India, the shining country of legal rape and actual rape verdicts blaming women for seducing men o/

   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Relapse wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
I'm still baffled at how backwards the UK/US is in regards to sex/nudity compared to the rest of the world, whilst being just as backwards about violence.

This wouldn't be an issue in, say, Germany or Eastern Europe, or India.

It would in Japan, but even they have a lot of unisex baths.


Ah, yes. India. That noted bastion of women's rights.


Yeah, I read that and snickered. I have a hard time considering a country with legalized marital rape as forward-thinking on sexuality.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I think there's something to be said for the woman here... most of this thread has been somewhat focused on the purportedly "trans" person...

I would imagine that if I were a woman and a member of a gym with locker rooms, and I walked in to shower/change before/after my workout and saw a real life penis hanging out for the "world" to see, I'd probably be a bit freaked out too. Obviously, there's the bit about how Western society apparently brain washes women into believing that if there's ever a man in a changing room he has ill intent, or that people are out to get them; But aside from that, I think there's got to be a bit of the "Surprise!" factor going on.

Anyone seen the youtube clips of the bathroom prank? (a guy walks into the "mens" restroom, and someone outside swaps the signs... the guy who's walked in is "visually assaulted" by women in towels, bathing suits etc., so he walks out, looks at the sign, and embarrassedly walks into the other room, for it to be repeated)

Think of that, only a bit more extreme (due to our Puritan obsession with skin being so icky)



Personally, I am with the actual woman who complained here. I've seen so many articles online about "decency" and modesty" everything from mothers in the US breastfeeding in public to this gym thing, and the common comment is "cover up because it respects OTHERS" Well, if it's really about respect, then perhaps Trans folks should "respect" others and not change in a semi-public place, or do so in such a way that NO ONE is any the wiser.

The gym I go to has no changing room per se. It has two restrooms that are "single occupant" (though there's space for more people) of a similar size to many roadside gas station restrooms, so roughly... 6x8? 8x10? I go straight from school to the gym, change in the restroom, and i go straight home after working out... so really there could be very little problem with this sort of situation in the OP.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I would imagine that if I were a woman and a member of a gym with locker rooms, and I walked in to shower/change before/after my workout and saw a real life penis hanging out for the "world" to see, I'd probably be a bit freaked out too.


Sure, but that's not all she did. She complained to the local management, and they told her what the situation was. The problem was that, instead of dropping the issue there, she insisted on escalating her complaint to people higher up the chain as well as "warning" other customers.

I've seen so many articles online about "decency" and modesty" everything from mothers in the US breastfeeding in public to this gym thing, and the common comment is "cover up because it respects OTHERS"


That's one point of view, but it's not the only one. Some of us think that the "COVER UP OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN" reaction is entirely inappropriate and it's not a big deal if a breastfeeding mother isn't quite 100% out of sight.

Well, if it's really about respect, then perhaps Trans folks should "respect" others and not change in a semi-public place, or do so in such a way that NO ONE is any the wiser.


So where are they supposed to go, if there isn't a private single-person area to use?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 04:26:29


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I would imagine that if I were a woman and a member of a gym with locker rooms, and I walked in to shower/change before/after my workout and saw a real life penis hanging out for the "world" to see, I'd probably be a bit freaked out too.


Sure, but that's not all she did. She complained to the local management, and they told her what the situation was. The problem was that, instead of dropping the issue there, she insisted on escalating her complaint to people higher up the chain as well as "warning" other customers.



Sorry mate, but "don't judge" is NOT an appropriate response to the situation, which from everything I've personally read, is exactly what Planet Fitness did... And further, rather than investigating the matter as most other places would do to validate/invalidate the woman's claims, they simply got rid of her paid membership because she broke the rule of "not judging people"


   
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It's either get gak from people who are for this thing, or the lgbt comunity. Which one is scarier and louder

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Sorry mate, but "don't judge" is NOT an appropriate response to the situation, which from everything I've personally read, is exactly what Planet Fitness did...


Why not? Do you actually have any evidence that there was any inappropriate behavior happening, or are you just assuming that there needs to be judgement for the sake of judgement?

And further, rather than investigating the matter as most other places would do to validate/invalidate the woman's claims, they simply got rid of her paid membership because she broke the rule of "not judging people"


You're right, she broke the rule. She went beyond voicing her concern about an unexpected situation and crossed the line into judging people. And the gym decided that her violation of the rule was enough to justify declining to do business with her. So what exactly is the problem here?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Personally, I am with the actual woman who complained here. I've seen so many articles online about "decency" and modesty" everything from mothers in the US breastfeeding in public to this gym thing, and the common comment is "cover up because it respects OTHERS" Well, if it's really about respect, then perhaps Trans folks should "respect" others and not change in a semi-public place, or do so in such a way that NO ONE is any the wiser.


How is it respecting others? I don't like seeing fat people or ugly people (I don't actually feel this way, just making a point). Perhaps they should wear a balaclava or ban fat people from wearing Lycra int he gym so I don't have to see it? (Again, I don't actually care, just making a point).

It is not about respecting others, but arbitrary lines people have made in what should and should not be seen in public. If there is an objective reason then fine. "I don't want to see that" is not objective. I'm borderline on public nudity, but in a gym changing room? Welcome to the modern world where transsexuals exist.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Sorry mate, but "don't judge" is NOT an appropriate response to the situation, which from everything I've personally read, is exactly what Planet Fitness did... And further, rather than investigating the matter as most other places would do to validate/invalidate the woman's claims, they simply got rid of her paid membership because she broke the rule of "not judging people"


No they wouldn't. Most businesses would do exactly what this gym did. Tell the woman making the complaint that she was wrong then throw her out if she carried on making a fuss. I don't know the details of US law, but it wouldn't surprise me if discrimination laws also affected this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 11:49:09


 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas



No they wouldn't. Most businesses would do exactly what this gym did. Tell the woman making the complaint that she was wrong then throw her out if she carried on making a fuss. I don't know the details of US law, but it wouldn't surprise me if discrimination laws also affected this.


Please show me the discrimination law she violated.
The other side is that, yep they got good press for people who are disposed to the issue, but they also got bad press for everyone else.

More people are uneasy with this situation.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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Fort Campbell

 Frazzled wrote:


No they wouldn't. Most businesses would do exactly what this gym did. Tell the woman making the complaint that she was wrong then throw her out if she carried on making a fuss. I don't know the details of US law, but it wouldn't surprise me if discrimination laws also affected this.


Please show me the discrimination law she violated.
The other side is that, yep they got good press for people who are disposed to the issue, but they also got bad press for everyone else.

More people are uneasy with this situation.


Exactly.

I know a transgender, a male who identifies as female, and now says that they are a lesbian. So, they have all the body parts, and sexual inclination of a heterosexual male, but something in their head says they are female.

Why should other women be comfortable about this? Simply because people say they should be? Your a bad person if you don't just shut up, and accept that a man can be in the locker room with you? I don't buy it.

Now that being said, what do we do about it? The transgender person has as much right as anyone to use a gym locker room. I can't come up with a perfect fix. Maybe some privacy stalls could be put in place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 12:45:23


Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in ie
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

unisex changing rooms with privacy stalls and you're sorted. Or even just privacy stalls in split-sex rooms, though to be fair they usually have shower cubicles and that won't do much for anyone elses unease.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 Frazzled wrote:


No they wouldn't. Most businesses would do exactly what this gym did. Tell the woman making the complaint that she was wrong then throw her out if she carried on making a fuss. I don't know the details of US law, but it wouldn't surprise me if discrimination laws also affected this.


Please show me the discrimination law she violated.
The other side is that, yep they got good press for people who are disposed to the issue, but they also got bad press for everyone else.

More people are uneasy with this situation.


It a almost like you are just grandstanding and don't know that "laws" are different from "agreements" and "contracts".

She agreed to terms, she violated these terms, the agreement was terminated. She is now free to join a gym that keeps trans women out of her locker room. Hurray free market and minimal government regulations.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 d-usa wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


No they wouldn't. Most businesses would do exactly what this gym did. Tell the woman making the complaint that she was wrong then throw her out if she carried on making a fuss. I don't know the details of US law, but it wouldn't surprise me if discrimination laws also affected this.


Please show me the discrimination law she violated.
The other side is that, yep they got good press for people who are disposed to the issue, but they also got bad press for everyone else.

More people are uneasy with this situation.


It a almost like you are just grandstanding and don't know that "laws" are different from "agreements" and "contracts".

She agreed to terms, she violated these terms, the agreement was terminated. She is now free to join a gym that keeps trans women out of her locker room. Hurray free market and minimal government regulations.


You're not good at reading this morning. The post stated he thought she might have violated discrimination laws.
Apology accepted.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

Don't post before morning coffee...
   
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





 Frazzled wrote:


You're not good at reading this morning. The post stated he thought she might have violated discrimination laws.
Apology accepted.


No it didn't. Perhaps before being passive aggressive about reading you should make sure you have understood what was written correctly.

I didn't say she had broken discrimination laws, I said "discrimination laws may have affected this". I was referring specifically to the actions of the gym, not her actions. With US law being such a complex mix of federal, state county and city law I don't know exactly what the discrimination laws are where the gym is, just postulating that there is a chance that discrimination laws may make it illegal for the gym to force a trans person to use a changing room other than the one that matches their gender identity. In some US jurisdictions there are laws in place protecting a trans gender persons right to use the bathroom (which would be an equivalent situation) that matches their gender identity, in others there is not. No idea about Michigan.

 d-usa wrote:
Hurray free market and minimal government regulations.


Which does nothing more than enforce the views of the majority and allow discrimination.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/03/11 14:07:46


 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Steve steveson wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


You're not good at reading this morning. The post stated he thought she might have violated discrimination laws.
Apology accepted.


No it didn't. Perhaps before being passive aggressive about reading you should make sure you have understood what was written correctly.

I didn't say she had broken discrimination laws, I said "discrimination laws may have affected this". I was referring specifically to the actions of the gym, not her actions. With US law being such a complex mix of federal, state county and city law I don't know exactly what the discrimination laws are where the gym is, just postulating that there is a chance that discrimination laws may make it illegal for the gym to force a trans person to use a changing room other than the one that matches their gender identity. In some US jurisdictions there are laws in place protecting a trans gender persons right to use the bathroom (which would be an equivalent situation) that matches their gender identity, in others there is not. No idea about Michigan.

 d-usa wrote:
Hurray free market and minimal government regulations.


Which does nothing more than enforce the views of the majority and allow discrimination.

EDIT: Good point. I did not see that.

To your point:
What law? What violation?
"AH there's a man in the girl's room! Call the police!"
Is not a violation of anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 14:55:40


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 Steve steveson wrote:


 d-usa wrote:
Hurray free market and minimal government regulations.


Which does nothing more than enforce the views of the majority and allow discrimination.


It's hard to argue that the free market and minimal government regulation enforces the views of the majority and allows discrimination when you are making that argument in a thread that is the result of exactly the opposite happening.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Frazzled wrote:


What law? What violation?
"AH there's a man in the girl's room! Call the police!"
Is not a violation of anything.


In Maryland, it would be illegal to ask a transgendered person to use a different bathroom or locker room than their gender identity.

If a place feels strongly and wants an exemption, they would have to:

If an establishment that is a place of public accommodation has a private facility on its premises that they want to be exempt, such as a locker room, the establishment is required to provide “equivalent space” for transgender patrons. This is defined as a space that is “functionally equivalent to the space made available to other users.”


And for the chicken little people who are using the spectre of mass rape or stalking by transgender to justify bigotry.

Does this mean that men will be able to dress up as women and use the women’s room?

No. This law does not entitle a person whose core identity is male to use the women’s room, or whose core identity is female to use the men’s room. Even if a man dresses up as woman, if his sincerely held, core identity is male, he cannot use the women’s room. This Act does not change that.

Moreover, this law does not change or weaken Maryland’s criminal laws in any way. If someone goes into a restroom to ogle or expose themselves or harass or assault someone, what they are doing is illegal and they will be prosecuted – regardless of how they are dressed or what their sex is or what their gender identity is.



Under this law, will girls be exposed to male genitalia in the bathroom?

No. This law does not change the current criminal laws in our state. It is already illegal for a man to come into a women’s bathroom and expose his penis. That would continue to be the case. Most transgender women (whose assigned sex at birth was male) currently use the women’s bathroom. We want people to be able to use the bathroom that matches how they look on the outside. This is what makes sense and is safest for the transgender person and the other people using the bathrooms. There is no evidence of any incident like this happening either here in Maryland or elsewhere in the country.


So at least in my state, it would have been illegal for the Gym to make the transgender woman use the male bathroom, and it would have been illegal for them to ban her from the gym. And as soon as the woman was making a 'scene' she was justifiably thrown out. If she actually had an issue like someone intentionally waving their genitals around or assaulting her, she would be able to file criminal charges... But since none of that happened and nothing the transgendered woman did was illegal, sounds like everything is working as intended.

Most of the 'oogies' people in this thread express and actions they suggest by forcing people to 'go where their parts say' is already illegal and discrimination in many states.

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The Great State of Texas

Please list the number of states where its illegal. This should be interesting in its brevity.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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