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 Azreal13 wrote:
Evidence? I've seen no evidence.

Plenty of speculation about some things that could happen, but evidence would be some sort of health issue directly attributed to a resin recast, some sort of lab report confirming the toxicity (something we have the almost exact opposite of in fact) or some sort of confession from a recaster that they use a toxic product.

What we have is a total absence of evidence and very little clear reason for a motive.

The three instances of contaminated chinese products are evidence, which is what i was referring to about his comments that chinese products using cheaper materials are not problematic or safety concerns and toxic materials are more expensive, and that they have a vested interest not to use toxic materials. The three case studies contradict this. There's basically no refuting that. I posted 3 instances: one from 7 years ago with baby formula, one from 6 years ago with pet treats, and one from just a couple months ago with formaldehyde coming from laminate flooring. There's more. Shall i dig them up ? Further, other than anecdotal / circumstancial "i used to be a counterfeiter" evidence based on personal experience, what evidence did he post ? I can form a personal opinion framed in a personal experience narrative too. It doesn't foment opinion into fact.


If you're talking about toxic chemical exposure to resins, you have just as much evidence recasters are using safe resin that i have that they aren't. Which is zero sum logic.

Resin is a slightly to highly toxic material depending on type you're using and context. That requires no evidence, as it's a proven fact. There's MDS sheets supporting this (an example of which i gave in link format. Also noted a couple websites corroborating that, albeit a more toxic one).


This is what i'm referring to when i say "evidence". I'm refuting some of his claims, not necessarily saying there's evidence that recasters use gak resin. For the record, those in the "low risk" camp have no proof they aren't by the way.


As for motive, in my line of work i come in contact with resins for industrial use. Not unilaterally, but some of the nastier grades of resin in terms of exposure toxicity are amongst the cheapest you can get (and oldest, fair being fair). Profitability by substitution is a construction turn of phrase that says "i submit to the engineer on equipment i make the claim is just as good as his Basis of Design, but will cost me less money to buy. I then put that reduced cost in my pocket as i already bid the job."

The same holds true for any manufacturing: if i can reduce my material cost, i can increase my profit per unit, or i can increase my volume of sales by reducing overall price.

If i'm a one man show, its much less likely i'm going to do my due diligence to make sure what i'm using doesn't have consequences. Particularly if i'm engaging in ... if not "illegal" in my locale, internationally questionable practices to begin with that would have legal ramifications in other countries.




Also on the whole "GW forgeworld toxicity", i have already said (twice, in fact) in this thread, that Forgeworld's resin is safe to handle. I engaged on the topic with Peregrine. I even went so far as to surmise that if FW's resin was safe to handle, so probably is Finecast. Just so there's no insinuations to the contrary. I'm talking only about unregulated recasters with my skepticism as to the safety. I've actually seen an MDS sheet on forgeworld resin (but do not have a copy of it at my disposal). It's safe to handle once cured. I'd still wear a mask if cutting / filing / etc it, but just a mask. No respirator. I've also said I believe they don't use epichlorohydrin and the isocyanates they use in the curing process are contained once cured, ergo after curing the risk of inhalation exposure is essentially non-existant.

Those acknowledgements I would think would serve as agreement with Sigvatar's having the model's tested, and my not counter-pointing him, as I , ya know, agree with him.

What i have maintained, and unfortunately apparently i have to reiterate every time i post or i get quoted out of context, is that there are lots of cheap, readily available resins on the market that do not share these properties. It is NOT guaranteed recasters are using these. It is also NOT guaranteed they are not. Caveat Emptor.




So we don't have a total absence of evidence. We have three case studies of profitability by substitution of (highly regulated, even!) chinese products with cheap toxic filler.

We have a supposition that re-casters could do the same in their nigh unregulated environment.

We have a motive of profitability by substitution via the raw material vector.


What is so incredulous about this ?

You make a good point above post.

I have an issue with people calling people who buy recasts criminal scum or thieves myself, these same people who support human rights abuse, theft, no workers rights, animal abuse, slave labour and sweat shops by buying coke, mcdonalds, shopping at Walmart/asda, nike shoes etc. the list goes on, I mean these people can have double standards if they like, but they shouldn't sit on there high horses and somehow pretend to be more moral that others, its plain stupidity.

I freely admit I shop at these places and they are scum, id like it if the world didn't work this way, but that's a different topic for a different day.

Can someone explain to me how some resin is toxic to touch after it sets? I was not aware of this.

If your just talking about sanding, that's most resin including forge world.

The only other way it's toxic is skin contact from uncured/lliquid resin.

I was not aware of toxic to touch resin.

 Haight wrote:

Spoiler:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Evidence? I've seen no evidence.

Plenty of speculation about some things that could happen, but evidence would be some sort of health issue directly attributed to a resin recast, some sort of lab report confirming the toxicity (something we have the almost exact opposite of in fact) or some sort of confession from a recaster that they use a toxic product.

What we have is a total absence of evidence and very little clear reason for a motive.

The three instances of contaminated chinese products are evidence, which is what i was referring to about his comments that chinese products using cheaper materials are not problematic or safety concerns and toxic materials are more expensive, and that they have a vested interest not to use toxic materials. The three case studies contradict this. There's basically no refuting that. I posted 3 instances: one from 7 years ago with baby formula, one from 6 years ago with pet treats, and one from just a couple months ago with formaldehyde coming from laminate flooring. There's more. Shall i dig them up ? Further, other than anecdotal / circumstancial "i used to be a counterfeiter" evidence based on personal experience, what evidence did he post ? I can form a personal opinion framed in a personal experience narrative too. It doesn't foment opinion into fact.


If you're talking about toxic chemical exposure to resins, you have just as much evidence recasters are using safe resin that i have that they aren't. Which is zero sum logic.

Resin is a slightly to highly toxic material depending on type you're using and context. That requires no evidence, as it's a proven fact. There's MDS sheets supporting this (an example of which i gave in link format. Also noted a couple websites corroborating that, albeit a more toxic one).


This is what i'm referring to when i say "evidence". I'm refuting some of his claims, not necessarily saying there's evidence that recasters use gak resin. For the record, those in the "low risk" camp have no proof they aren't by the way.


As for motive, in my line of work i come in contact with resins for industrial use. Not unilaterally, but some of the nastier grades of resin in terms of exposure toxicity are amongst the cheapest you can get (and oldest, fair being fair). Profitability by substitution is a construction turn of phrase that says "i submit to the engineer on equipment i make the claim is just as good as his Basis of Design, but will cost me less money to buy. I then put that reduced cost in my pocket as i already bid the job."

The same holds true for any manufacturing: if i can reduce my material cost, i can increase my profit per unit, or i can increase my volume of sales by reducing overall price.

If i'm a one man show, its much less likely i'm going to do my due diligence to make sure what i'm using doesn't have consequences. Particularly if i'm engaging in ... if not "illegal" in my locale, internationally questionable practices to begin with that would have legal ramifications in other countries.




Also on the whole "GW forgeworld toxicity", i have already said (twice, in fact) in this thread, that Forgeworld's resin is safe to handle. I engaged on the topic with Peregrine. I even went so far as to surmise that if FW's resin was safe to handle, so probably is Finecast. Just so there's no insinuations to the contrary. I'm talking only about unregulated recasters with my skepticism as to the safety. I've actually seen an MDS sheet on forgeworld resin (but do not have a copy of it at my disposal). It's safe to handle once cured. I'd still wear a mask if cutting / filing / etc it, but just a mask. No respirator. I've also said I believe they don't use epichlorohydrin and the isocyanates they use in the curing process are contained once cured, ergo after curing the risk of inhalation exposure is essentially non-existant.

Those acknowledgements I would think would serve as agreement with Sigvatar's having the model's tested, and my not counter-pointing him, as I , ya know, agree with him.

What i have maintained, and unfortunately apparently i have to reiterate every time i post or i get quoted out of context, is that there are lots of cheap, readily available resins on the market that do not share these properties. It is NOT guaranteed recasters are using these. It is also NOT guaranteed they are not. Caveat Emptor.




So we don't have a total absence of evidence. We have three case studies of profitability by substitution of (highly regulated, even!) chinese products with cheap toxic filler.

We have a supposition that re-casters could do the same in their nigh unregulated environment.

We have a motive of profitability by substitution via the raw material vector.


What is so incredulous about this ?

I really think you need to pay more attention to the differences between direct evidence, circumstantial evidence and pure supposition.

That there are cases of substitution is beyond doubt. However, in the milk powder case, for instance, there was both a clear motive to do so (they were cutting it with something much cheaper and the product itself had a high street price) and it wasn't an attempt to build any sort of repeat business, it was simply an attempt to earn a quick buck out of the prevailing situation of supply and demand.

Neither of these factors really applies here. You cite that there are cheap resins available that aren't as safe, which is fine, but unless they're substantially cheaper than normal resin, which unlike in the case of pretty much any substitution of raw material story, is already pretty cheap, and also a lot more toxic, once cured, to the degree it poses a risk to your average hobbyist in the quantities and timescales they'll be exposed, there's no real motive to make that substitution nor any real risk if it is.

I'm sorry, but making inferences based on other products substituted by other people is like me accusing you of a gun crime simply because you've got an American flag by your name. There is no link, circumstantial or direct, clear or tenuous, between either the personnel or product we're discussing and those you cite as evidence, in essence, you're saying "these Chinese people are prepared to do bad things, therefore all Chinese people must be!"

You're also making comparisons between people actively participating in criminal behaviour (I'm pretty sure putting poison in foodstuffs is highly illegal, even in China) and people who are ostensibly making/supplementing an income participating in something which is a much more normalised part of the culture.

You're right FW resin isn't classed as toxic, that doesn't make it safe, there are, in principle at least, still potential risks to health if handled incorrectly over the long term and in quantity (again, I'm of the mind that a typical hobbyist will seldom be exposed sufficiently for this to be a consideration) and the only direct evidence we have with regard to the relative toxicity of Chinese resin is a resounding "not enough to concern anyone."

If we're going to cite circumstantial and anecdotal evidence too, then I'll cite all the people who have apparently bought recast models and not died, or indeed, suffered any ill effects at all.

I firmly believe this idea of toxic resin is something that was thrown at people by GW staffers and the like when the topic of recasts came up in order to justify their own prices and discourage people from trying to buy them, but, as an idea, it is just credulous enough, and enough people are sufficiently paranoid about their health that it has really gained traction.


We're arguing in circles though, because unless you're able to present an example of resin from a recast that's been tested as dangerously toxic, then, beyond Sigvtar's test, all we've both really got is supposition and maybe.

That said, I still believe the most likely explanation is they're just using normal resin, but I can't prove a belief.

 Haight wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Evidence? I've seen no evidence.

Plenty of speculation about some things that could happen, but evidence would be some sort of health issue directly attributed to a resin recast, some sort of lab report confirming the toxicity (something we have the almost exact opposite of in fact) or some sort of confession from a recaster that they use a toxic product.

What we have is a total absence of evidence and very little clear reason for a motive.

The three instances of contaminated chinese products are evidence, which is what i was referring to about his comments that chinese products using cheaper materials are not problematic or safety concerns and toxic materials are more expensive, and that they have a vested interest not to use toxic materials. The three case studies contradict this. There's basically no refuting that. I posted 3 instances: one from 7 years ago with baby formula, one from 6 years ago with pet treats, and one from just a couple months ago with formaldehyde coming from laminate flooring. There's more. Shall i dig them up ? Further, other than anecdotal / circumstancial "i used to be a counterfeiter" evidence based on personal experience, what evidence did he post ? I can form a personal opinion framed in a personal experience narrative too. It doesn't foment opinion into fact.


If you're talking about toxic chemical exposure to resins, you have just as much evidence recasters are using safe resin that i have that they aren't. Which is zero sum logic.

Resin is a slightly to highly toxic material depending on type you're using and context. That requires no evidence, as it's a proven fact. There's MDS sheets supporting this (an example of which i gave in link format. Also noted a couple websites corroborating that, albeit a more toxic one).


This is what i'm referring to when i say "evidence". I'm refuting some of his claims, not necessarily saying there's evidence that recasters use gak resin. For the record, those in the "low risk" camp have no proof they aren't by the way.


As for motive, in my line of work i come in contact with resins for industrial use. Not unilaterally, but some of the nastier grades of resin in terms of exposure toxicity are amongst the cheapest you can get (and oldest, fair being fair). Profitability by substitution is a construction turn of phrase that says "i submit to the engineer on equipment i make the claim is just as good as his Basis of Design, but will cost me less money to buy. I then put that reduced cost in my pocket as i already bid the job."

The same holds true for any manufacturing: if i can reduce my material cost, i can increase my profit per unit, or i can increase my volume of sales by reducing overall price.

If i'm a one man show, its much less likely i'm going to do my due diligence to make sure what i'm using doesn't have consequences. Particularly if i'm engaging in ... if not "illegal" in my locale, internationally questionable practices to begin with that would have legal ramifications in other countries.




Also on the whole "GW forgeworld toxicity", i have already said (twice, in fact) in this thread, that Forgeworld's resin is safe to handle. I engaged on the topic with Peregrine. I even went so far as to surmise that if FW's resin was safe to handle, so probably is Finecast. Just so there's no insinuations to the contrary. I'm talking only about unregulated recasters with my skepticism as to the safety. I've actually seen an MDS sheet on forgeworld resin (but do not have a copy of it at my disposal). It's safe to handle once cured. I'd still wear a mask if cutting / filing / etc it, but just a mask. No respirator. I've also said I believe they don't use epichlorohydrin and the isocyanates they use in the curing process are contained once cured, ergo after curing the risk of inhalation exposure is essentially non-existant.

Those acknowledgements I would think would serve as agreement with Sigvatar's having the model's tested, and my not counter-pointing him, as I , ya know, agree with him.

What i have maintained, and unfortunately apparently i have to reiterate every time i post or i get quoted out of context, is that there are lots of cheap, readily available resins on the market that do not share these properties. It is NOT guaranteed recasters are using these. It is also NOT guaranteed they are not. Caveat Emptor.




So we don't have a total absence of evidence. We have three case studies of profitability by substitution of (highly regulated, even!) chinese products with cheap toxic filler.

We have a supposition that re-casters could do the same in their nigh unregulated environment.

We have a motive of profitability by substitution via the raw material vector.


What is so incredulous about this ?

I dont really understand what the point is. are you saying you will get sick just being in the presence of the product?

wear gloves if youre going to work with it, sand it underwater, cut off mold lines outside then vacuum it up. as long as youre not an idiot about it, how bad can it really be? Are you suggesting its going to slowly kill you as it sits on the shelf fully painted? I find it a little hard to believe.

You're right FW resin isn't classed as toxic, that doesn't make it safe, there are, in principle at least, still potential risks to health if handled incorrectly over the long term and in quantity (again, I'm of the mind that a typical hobbyist will seldom be exposed sufficiently for this to be a consideration) and the only direct evidence we have with regard to the relative toxicity of Chinese resin is a resounding "not enough to concern anyone."

this is not really true. I was reading on here some guy developed a sensitivity to superglue because he was sitting around gluing stuff all day. if youre sitting around all day with the windows closed working on some massive resin army you better believe that the quantity will be sufficient enough to mess you up.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yes, I was referring to you.

When I mentioned we had almost the exact opposite of a report saying the resin was toxic.

That's why we had it tested - if it was toxic in any way, then we'd never keep that stuff around our daughter.

kb305 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Haight wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Evidence? I've seen no evidence.

Plenty of speculation about some things that could happen, but evidence would be some sort of health issue directly attributed to a resin recast, some sort of lab report confirming the toxicity (something we have the almost exact opposite of in fact) or some sort of confession from a recaster that they use a toxic product.

What we have is a total absence of evidence and very little clear reason for a motive.

The three instances of contaminated chinese products are evidence, which is what i was referring to about his comments that chinese products using cheaper materials are not problematic or safety concerns and toxic materials are more expensive, and that they have a vested interest not to use toxic materials. The three case studies contradict this. There's basically no refuting that. I posted 3 instances: one from 7 years ago with baby formula, one from 6 years ago with pet treats, and one from just a couple months ago with formaldehyde coming from laminate flooring. There's more. Shall i dig them up ? Further, other than anecdotal / circumstancial "i used to be a counterfeiter" evidence based on personal experience, what evidence did he post ? I can form a personal opinion framed in a personal experience narrative too. It doesn't foment opinion into fact.


If you're talking about toxic chemical exposure to resins, you have just as much evidence recasters are using safe resin that i have that they aren't. Which is zero sum logic.

Resin is a slightly to highly toxic material depending on type you're using and context. That requires no evidence, as it's a proven fact. There's MDS sheets supporting this (an example of which i gave in link format. Also noted a couple websites corroborating that, albeit a more toxic one).


This is what i'm referring to when i say "evidence". I'm refuting some of his claims, not necessarily saying there's evidence that recasters use gak resin. For the record, those in the "low risk" camp have no proof they aren't by the way.


As for motive, in my line of work i come in contact with resins for industrial use. Not unilaterally, but some of the nastier grades of resin in terms of exposure toxicity are amongst the cheapest you can get (and oldest, fair being fair). Profitability by substitution is a construction turn of phrase that says "i submit to the engineer on equipment i make the claim is just as good as his Basis of Design, but will cost me less money to buy. I then put that reduced cost in my pocket as i already bid the job."

The same holds true for any manufacturing: if i can reduce my material cost, i can increase my profit per unit, or i can increase my volume of sales by reducing overall price.

If i'm a one man show, its much less likely i'm going to do my due diligence to make sure what i'm using doesn't have consequences. Particularly if i'm engaging in ... if not "illegal" in my locale, internationally questionable practices to begin with that would have legal ramifications in other countries.




Also on the whole "GW forgeworld toxicity", i have already said (twice, in fact) in this thread, that Forgeworld's resin is safe to handle. I engaged on the topic with Peregrine. I even went so far as to surmise that if FW's resin was safe to handle, so probably is Finecast. Just so there's no insinuations to the contrary. I'm talking only about unregulated recasters with my skepticism as to the safety. I've actually seen an MDS sheet on forgeworld resin (but do not have a copy of it at my disposal). It's safe to handle once cured. I'd still wear a mask if cutting / filing / etc it, but just a mask. No respirator. I've also said I believe they don't use epichlorohydrin and the isocyanates they use in the curing process are contained once cured, ergo after curing the risk of inhalation exposure is essentially non-existant.

Those acknowledgements I would think would serve as agreement with Sigvatar's having the model's tested, and my not counter-pointing him, as I , ya know, agree with him.

What i have maintained, and unfortunately apparently i have to reiterate every time i post or i get quoted out of context, is that there are lots of cheap, readily available resins on the market that do not share these properties. It is NOT guaranteed recasters are using these. It is also NOT guaranteed they are not. Caveat Emptor.




So we don't have a total absence of evidence. We have three case studies of profitability by substitution of (highly regulated, even!) chinese products with cheap toxic filler.

We have a supposition that re-casters could do the same in their nigh unregulated environment.

We have a motive of profitability by substitution via the raw material vector.


What is so incredulous about this ?

I dont really understand what the point is. are you saying you will get sick just being in the presence of the product?

wear gloves if youre going to work with it, sand it underwater, cut off mold lines outside then vacuum it up. as long as youre not an idiot about it, how bad can it really be? Are you suggesting its going to slowly kill you as it sits on the shelf fully painted? I find it a little hard to believe.

You're right FW resin isn't classed as toxic, that doesn't make it safe, there are, in principle at least, still potential risks to health if handled incorrectly over the long term and in quantity (again, I'm of the mind that a typical hobbyist will seldom be exposed sufficiently for this to be a consideration) and the only direct evidence we have with regard to the relative toxicity of Chinese resin is a resounding "not enough to concern anyone."

this is not really true. I was reading on here some guy developed a sensitivity to superglue because he was sitting around gluing stuff all day. if youre sitting around all day with the windows closed working on some massive resin army you better believe that the quantity will be sufficient enough to mess you up.

Erm?

Sorry, but a typical hobbyist doesn't sit around all day in an unventilated room surrounded by huge piles of resin huffing CA fumes. At least, not in my experience. That would be an atypical hobbyist IMO, one who chooses to disregard all best practice and safety guidelines.

Equally, people don't typically develop sensitivities to a product unless they're allergic from the get go or get exposed to it in large doses, not that it can't happen, but we're talking in general terms here, and specific doesn't really trump general in this sort of circumstance.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, if they are copies, how can their detail be better? I can imagine the same, but not better.

That is because the "recasters" are starting to improve upon the casts. . Some of the higher tier recasters are editing the molds so that when they cast they come out better.

The thing you have to realize is that in the Eastern mindset "Improvement" or "Perfection" is king. They have a much greater tendency to take an idea and constantly rework it to enhance the product and production process. Western Culture has more emphasis on "Creation" or "Conception". Its why the two cultures really work together quite well. Western culture will be more likely to come up with a new idea and Eastern Culture will refine it. Both have there advantages and disadvantages. In competition between the cultures it comes down to who can do it faster. Western Culture will create the idea then Eastern culture will race to better it before Western culture creates something that obsoletes the now "old" idea.

 Haight wrote:
Except that there's lots of evidence to suggest otherwise, BeAfraid.

Maybe you could post a link to said evidence.

I could look into it the next time I go back to LA at the UCLA Library.

But.... having read your posts, you seem to be tremendously paranoid, and have an overly Hollywood biased imagination regarding criminals.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, if they are copies, how can their detail be better? I can imagine the same, but not better.

1) Buy a model just after it is released, so that the Master used is from an early casting off the production mold.
2) Then have a modeler go over the casting to clean it of ALL mold lines, flash, and casting errors.
3) Then have the modeler go over the casting to repair any flaws, and sharpen details (this is what anyone would do in terms of paint prep anyway).
4) Then make the mold using a micrometer spacer that offsets mold shrinkage of the model.
5) Then use harder resin than the original to cast.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lockark wrote:
Can someone explain to me how some resin is toxic to touch after it sets? I was not aware of this.

If your just talking about sanding, that's most resin including forge world.

The only other way it's toxic is skin contact from uncured/lliquid resin.

I was not aware of toxic to touch resin.

There isn't any unless it is intentionally adulterated with a toxic volatile. Doing this would be terrifically expensive, as it would require a resin designed specifically to suspend the volatile in a matrix. Typical resins will not do this.

This is just an example of the paranoia I am referencing concerning the "Evidence" claimed about this issue.

MB

Off course those professional hobbyist are dropping like flies, but it is not in the news because of resin conglomerate cover-up.

I think there is danger but it is less than what some people think.

I can't help but feel that a good portion of this "toxic paranoia" comes from the fact that some people simply can't believe a recaster can offer the same or better product than FW for half (or less) the price. In the eyes of those people, there must be something terribly wrong with recasts.

As it's been explained to death before, recasts are not cheap products. A recasted world eaters dreadnought (with no arms) is still a pretty chunk of resin for almost 20$. The problem is that the official product costs more than 40$ and you have no guarantees it'll be better (or even as good) as the recasted model.

Recasters thrive because the official product pricing is madness.

 Peregrine wrote:
Sure, but what I'm saying is people seem to expect $5 shipping for a heavy box of models, and that's just not realistic. Paying $15 for shipping on a $100 tank seems pretty reasonable when USPS is demanding $50+ for the same box.

I don't expect $5 shipping, but if I order 4x squads of Space Marines, which weigh (on the sprue in the bag with gates attached) .08oz each / 16oz for 20, I expect to pay the £14.95 / $22.USD that the Royal Mail price calculator generates for shipping to my house from Nottingham for a package that size (no more than 11"x11"x11") and that weight (up to 2kg).

Forge World, however, would simply charge me $53 for that package because that represents 15% of the order total, and pocket the rest.

I don't see that - or order cost percentage based vs weight based shipping - as particularly defensible.

But don't worry, VAT is included! (even though it isn't applicable to you in your US location... but the excuse is that they don't subract it but instead use it to "subsidize" the shipping cost).

I don't think it's unreasonable for a subsidiary of a multimilliondollar multinational corporation to offer shipping rates commensurate with what 2 and 3 man shops from Poland offer.

Weirdly enough, they seem to get by without essentially double-charging international, non-VAT customers part of the shipping costs for VAT customers

 Korinov wrote:


Recasters thrive because the official product pricing is madness.

Precisely. And it's a problem that causes far bigger waves than it should. People used to refrain from buying stuff from China / Asia in general because they feared it being of low quality or toxic. With FW immensively overcharging their products, however, recasters can offer their wares at 1/3 of the original price (or less!) and that giant gap is big enough to overcome those fears. As a consequence, more and more people buy recasts and realize that they aren't bad in any way, but rather come at a high quality level. This positive experience will spread and might lead to more and more people buying recasts even with lower price gaps. And while we don't care for FW / GW at all (after all, they chose to overcharge so much), the problem starts with smaller companies having trouble to compete with recasters despite asking for fair prices.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Korinov wrote:


Recasters thrive because the official product pricing is madness.

Precisely. And it's a problem that causes far bigger waves than it should. People used to refrain from buying stuff from China / Asia in general because they feared it being of low quality or toxic. With FW immensively overcharging their products, however, recasters can offer their wares at 1/3 of the original price (or less!) and that giant gap is big enough to overcome those fears. As a consequence, more and more people buy recasts and realize that they aren't bad in any way, but rather come at a high quality level. This positive experience will spread and might lead to more and more people buying recasts even with lower price gaps. And while we don't care for FW / GW at all (after all, they chose to overcharge so much), the problem starts with smaller companies having trouble to compete with recasters despite asking for fair prices.

True only to a certain degree, I guess. If the small 3rd party companies keep their prices reasonable, I don't think they have much to fear from recasters.

I have an armless FW chaos dreadnought and I intend to outfit it with two thunderclaws from the Puppetswar range. The pair costs 15€ iirc (well, 13.5€ at their current 10% discount offer). It's mostly in line with what recasters tend to ask for FW dreadnought arms (between 6 and 8$ each). And Puppetswar walker arms are designed to be easily magnetized, thus swapping weapon options is easy as hell (the also sell the weapons separatedly for 5€ the pair, I think).

Not to mention they look incredibly cool.

Kromlech stuff is already being recast. But they are pretty much the most expensive 3rd party "40k" items.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Kromlech stuff is already being recast. But they are pretty much the most expensive 3rd party "40k" items.

More expensive even than Scibor? Wow.

There is the brittle crap with so much styrene smell that the thought of opening the box during Apocalypse Now 'I love the smell of napalm in the morning' moment for the sake of immersion crossed my mind. Still looks good though heh.

There's also the beautiful, sharp, neither brittle nor smelly beautiful type of recast. I saw bare minis where I looked for faults and didnt find any, just perfect.

I have a few of both but no more, I decided that I prefer a single original FW model over a few recasts. Not a question of morality for me, crossing the speed limit by 20km/h is worse imo and almost everybody does it at times, I bet including all the anti counterfeit crusaders. I just want FW doing more sculpts and I pay for that, also I like them tbh and that's how it works with me and original stuff heh.

@Haight - good informed posts man but if you want to get into outgasing, look at your carpet first, or a brand new tv or gfx card. The chemical fumes like ones from cheap resin are here to stay and we adapt or die tbh. Still it's better to have safer products ofc but there's only so much you can control, minis sure can be toxic but you seal them and it's not really that much of a surface in total, I doubt that, let's say a 1500 pts painted recast army is significantly hazardous (I mean more than, let say everyday breathing of big city air). Correct if wrong.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
There is the brittle crap with so much styrene smell that the thought of opening the box during Apocalypse Now 'I love the smell of napalm in the morning' moment for the sake of immersion crossed my mind. Still looks good though heh.

There's also the beautiful, sharp, neither brittle nor smelly beautiful type of recast. I saw bare minis where I looked for faults and didnt find any, just perfect.

I have seen some of the smelly recasts, which had such a strong plastic smell, that even through a paintjob, simply playing against it for a game caused me to get a headache. I have worked with dozens of resins and poured resin, I have never had a model which smelled like those. The guy said he thought the smell would go away but it wasn't seeming to go away.

eBay doesn't yet have the ability to let you smell an item yet. So while both look good, you have to roll the dice to see if you get smelly smelly smelly recast or not.

Just want to chime in here, agreeing with the 'smell' issue these recasts have.

Just like nkelsch I have worked on a lot of resins models from many manufacturers (DP9, Maxmini, Forgeworld, 3rd Party), and made my own casts of custom parts.

Where this is relevant for the topic of recasters is.. sadly I bit the bullet and could not resist expanding my Forgeworld collection so... easily, perhaps? I have purchased from many different sellers to test quality, and I can without a doubt mention that many of them sell products that REEK to high heavens with a foul 'off gassing' chemical odor.

This brings up a good question to ask ones self, is it worth damaging your lungs and health, and the health of those you game with just to save a couple bucks?

More than 6 months later, and I still have a super heavy tank that smells like fresh industrial byproduct even after being washed in warm soapy water several times.

The toxic smell 'should' lessen over time.

You're conflating a "chemical" smell with something toxic.

It isn't necessarily the same thing (it isn't necessarily not the same thing either, of course) but there are plenty of other things that smell that we, as hobbyists, use on a regular basis that, used properly, pose no significant risk to health - glues, paints (alcohol rather than acrylic, although I've used some pretty funky smelling water based acrylic!) varnishes, aerosols of multiples of the above, paint stripper etc etc.

Only in a very limited minority of cases where people have some sort of pre-existing sensitivity to the active ingredients in these things is there any real danger to health (again, pre-supposing sensible precautions.)

I've encountered the smell mentioned on some recasts, but, frankly, on that experience, I have trouble believing they were that obnoxious unless the game took place in a cupboard. I guess they could have been really really smelly and large models or something.

But if we start treating anything that smells strongly as if it were toxic, we'd have to quarantine every teenage boy who's just discovered body spray. (Which is probably a good idea for numerous other reasons, but not simply because they smell strongly of chemicals!)

That smell inset the resin, well if it is then its transferred onto other products from other sellers, before miniatures I was buying my daughter shoes and they'd arrive with that same smell.

If smell was an indication of toxicity, using a toilet would be a grimdark and deadly endeavour, goodbye honey kiss the children from me Im going. In case of recast, the styrene for example is hazardous but it is has yet to be proven to be cancirogenic, not to mention the world around us is full of it anyway afaik. Im not saying that those are healthy but in my case the smell dimnished to acceptable levels (opening the box though was something, smelled like primary school heh. Dont ask) and I dont know what they'd have to use to poison you through acrylic paints, polonium, corrosive gas?

I stumbled upon a few supposed MSDSs for various recasters resins, will try to find them. Those are not confirmed though so nearly worthless but checking properties one can draw some conclusions maybe. Im tempted to send one of my pieces to the lab but Glotkin and fw possesed come first heh.

nkelsch wrote:
eBay doesn't yet have the ability to let you smell an item yet. So while both look good, you have to roll the dice to see if you get smelly smelly smelly recast or not.

Well that's why you buy direct not on ebay heh. And the smelly ones, 1st world kids want to toy with Nurgle but you dont want to get your hands dirty eh? Papa will get you anyway.

 Ouze wrote:
I don't think it's unreasonable for a subsidiary of a multimilliondollar multinational corporation to offer shipping rates commensurate with what 2 and 3 man shops from Poland offer.

Weirdly enough, they seem to get by without essentially double-charging international, non-VAT customers part of the shipping costs for VAT customers

Even in the UK the shipping is 12%. If I were to spend £200 on Forgeworld I'd be hit with £24 postage. For what??? £200 of Forgeworld would weigh ounces, it's one of their Heresy bundles (20 marines or so) and a rhino. It wouldn't cost much more for me to drive to Nottingham and back from London to pick it up in person!

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Even in the UK the shipping is 12%. If I were to spend £200 on Forgeworld I'd be hit with £24 postage. For what??? £200 of Forgeworld would weigh ounces, it's one of their Heresy bundles (20 marines or so) and a rhino. It wouldn't cost much more for me to drive to Nottingham and back from London to pick it up in person!

That's because you're subsidizing the cost of shipping outside the UK, especially all of those free shipping orders and free shipping replacement parts. Thanks for doing your part to keep my models semi-affordable!

Opts to buys cheap product to keep costs down, then springs for expensive tests.... somehow I don't see that happening. If you were going to throw money at the models wouldn't one just buy FW to begin with?

Well, calling someone out as a liar (which is essentially what you're doing, whether intentional or not) isn't a particularly classy move, but, nevertheless, surely you can grasp the concept of a one time expense paying dividends over multiple future purchases?

One of the supposed resins

http://www.gongchang.com/YCRESIN_8017AB_Fast_Cast_Polyurethane_Casting_Resin_-dp16518667/

 Peregrine wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Even in the UK the shipping is 12%. If I were to spend £200 on Forgeworld I'd be hit with £24 postage. For what??? £200 of Forgeworld would weigh ounces, it's one of their Heresy bundles (20 marines or so) and a rhino. It wouldn't cost much more for me to drive to Nottingham and back from London to pick it up in person!

That's because you're subsidizing the cost of shipping outside the UK, especially all of those free shipping orders and free shipping replacement parts. Thanks for doing your part to keep my models semi-affordable!

You realise that in order to get overseas "free" shipping you need to be paying £250.00 or more. So that's £50.00 (US$75/68 EUR) in VAT that we pay that they don't pass on to HMRC which is actually paying for the "free" shipping? FW is also a small part of GW PLC (they're inside the same building as the studio, etc) so they would be paying a very friendly negotiated rate from UPS rather than "retail" for their shipping.