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Alright so I really wanna do a summon-centric Daemons list at a local 1500 pt tourney next weekend. Any thoughts before I fully commit?

CAD:
LoC: 2x Greater, 1x Lesser
Tz'erald: ML3, Exalted
Tz'erald: ML3
Tz'erald: ML3

13x Horrors: Irridescent
12x Horrors: Irridescent

12x Hounds

Allied Detachment
Daemon Prince (Nurgle): Wings, Armor, ML3, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser

12x Horrors

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Alright so I really wanna do a summon-centric Daemons list at a local 1500 pt tourney next weekend. Any thoughts before I fully commit?

CAD:
LoC: 2x Greater, 1x Lesser
Tz'erald: ML3, Exalted
Tz'erald: ML3
Tz'erald: ML3

13x Horrors: Irridescent
12x Horrors: Irridescent

12x Hounds

Allied Detachment
Daemon Prince (Nurgle): Wings, Armor, ML3, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser

12x Horrors

I would drop 1x Tz'erald, reduce all horrors to 11, and drop a few dogs to get the blue scribes and another unit of horrors (CAD instead of Allies so 2x troops).

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Alright so I really wanna do a summon-centric Daemons list at a local 1500 pt tourney next weekend. Any thoughts before I fully commit?

CAD:
LoC: 2x Greater, 1x Lesser
Tz'erald: ML3, Exalted
Tz'erald: ML3
Tz'erald: ML3
13x Horrors: Irridescent
12x Horrors: Irridescent
12x Hounds
Allied Detachment
Daemon Prince (Nurgle): Wings, Armor, ML3, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser
12x Horrors

It looks like you are going to depend on the Nurgle Prince and Hounds to do the heavy lifting, and have the Heralds and Horrors for a summoning engine ?

If so, the irridescents aren't going to do much, and you could replace them with standards, to keep your summons from wildly scattering.

shogun wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Alright so I really wanna do a summon-centric Daemons list at a local 1500 pt tourney next weekend. Any thoughts before I fully commit?

CAD:
LoC: 2x Greater, 1x Lesser
Tz'erald: ML3, Exalted
Tz'erald: ML3
Tz'erald: ML3

13x Horrors: Irridescent
12x Horrors: Irridescent

12x Hounds

Allied Detachment
Daemon Prince (Nurgle): Wings, Armor, ML3, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser

12x Horrors

I would drop 1x Tz'erald, reduce all horrors to 11, and drop a few dogs to get the blue scribes and another unit of horrors (CAD instead of Allies so 2x troops).

No double CAD allowed at this event, otherwise I would consider it.

adamsouza wrote:

It looks like you are going to depend on the Nurgle Prince and Hounds to do the heavy lifting, and have the Heralds and Horrors for a summoning engine ?

If so, the irridescents aren't going to do much, and you could replace them with standards, to keep your summons from wildly scattering.

Definitely need the Prince to do some heavy lifting, as well as the LoC. Hounds are more for forcing my opponent to shoot at them early on or risk their shooty stuff being tied up in combat for multiple rounds while I get the summoning ball rolling.

I slapped on some irridescents because I had 10 points left and I figured that they would provide a modicum of insurance against a result of 3 on the Warpstorm table. I'm not terribly worried about scatter because with 12 rolls minimum on Malefic, I should have at least one Cursed Earth, hopefully more.

I put the LoC in there instead of fatey because I felt like I really needed another beatstick. Without another (possible) close combat monster in the list, I'd be leaning really hard on the Nurgle Prince. Do you think it would be wise to skim some points from the Hounds to get Be'Lakor in there? Knowing all of telepathy is always nice.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

shogun wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Alright so I really wanna do a summon-centric Daemons list at a local 1500 pt tourney next weekend. Any thoughts before I fully commit?

CAD:
LoC: 2x Greater, 1x Lesser
Tz'erald: ML3, Exalted
Tz'erald: ML3
Tz'erald: ML3

13x Horrors: Irridescent
12x Horrors: Irridescent

12x Hounds

Allied Detachment
Daemon Prince (Nurgle): Wings, Armor, ML3, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser

12x Horrors

I would drop 1x Tz'erald, reduce all horrors to 11, and drop a few dogs to get the blue scribes and another unit of horrors (CAD instead of Allies so 2x troops).

No double CAD allowed at this event, otherwise I would consider it.

Then I think you should drop one Tz-herald and drop all horrors to 11, and get a khorne herald on a bloodcrusher with instant kill axe and icon (hatred). Maybe you should also switch that LOC for B'lakor. I think that LOC could get killed to easily if the grimoire fails. With B'lakor you always get that 2+ coversave just like the Nurgle Daemon Prince and always got the possibility to cast invisibility on the hounds. Thats really important when facing Necron Wraiths. B'lakor also does a better job at killing Imperial knights (S7 armourbane versus S8 staff of change).

At 1500 points I would also consider switching to a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (heavy support) because then you free up a HQ-slot to get the blue scribes (drop a Tz'erald).

I have enough Pink Horrors, Heralds on foot, and Greater Daemons to get by for now, and I'm looking to what I should buy next. Trying to keep to purchases of $100 or less at a time to keep my wife from murdering me in my sleep.

What gives the most bang for your buck with Summoning/Incusion ?

I know Nurgle Plague Drones are popular, and I need models for Incusion, but $60 per casting of Incusion, that's a really expensive option.

Screamers cost half as much, are stupidly fast, and get a d3 attacks per model on a unit they turbo boost over.

I can't see the appeal of Fiends of Slaanesh. Is there something I'm missing to justify the $75 a pop price tag ?

Bloodcrushers of Khorne appear to be the Marine Killer Choice, but if I'm going to sepnd $55 I might as well spend $60 and get the Plague Drones. Also, I just don't care for Khorne units in general.

Flamers are cheapest option, at only $20 a summons, with 3 AP4 Template attacks, they'd probably be great against, Orks, Tau, and Nids. I'll definitely pick some up, even though I'm most likely going to face Marines and Necrons.

Daemonettes have always been on my to do list. $29 per summons, rending and +3 on the run

Seekers are also spectacular with a ton of rending attacks and the ability to run pretty far (I mean, not screamer far but you do get more wounds per summon, and they get +6" to their run)

Plague drones are good but work best supported IMO. As in, I'd prefer to start them in my army vs summoning them. They are still good with touch of rust and the cavalry unit type, plus their jet pack assault move.

Can't go wrong with screamers. AP 2 armorbane OP.

Those are definitely the top three, but flesh hounds aren't bad (the most wounds) and bloodcrushers have some good points (wounds), but both of those units need support more than plague drones because they tend to want to try and win combat, which can be tough for them in low numbers like summoning tends to give. The other units are all about just scooting over the board, with specific uses for each that can be effectively accomplished even in small numbers

Yeah Heralds of Slaanesh aslo make great reserve summoners as thy can outflank come on board and summon.

luke1705 wrote:Seekers ...Plague drones...Can't go wrong with screamers....Those are definitely the top three...

I'll have to read into Seekers a bit more, at first glance they didn't do anything for me.
Plague Drones are probably getting pushed to back of the list. They're expensive, Nurgle, and I don't want to rework the rest of my list to support them.
Screamers look like they are at the top of my shopping list. They seem the most cost effective.

Hollismason wrote:Yeah Heralds of Slaanesh aslo make great reserve summoners as thy can outflank come on board and summon.

OoOoh, I may have to swap one of my heralds of Tzeentch for a Herald of Slaanesh and give that a try. At $22.50 a pop, I might just buy a box of Daemonettes and convert one

 adamsouza wrote:

luke1705 wrote:Seekers ...Plague drones...Can't go wrong with screamers....Those are definitely the top three...

I'll have to read into Seekers a bit more, at first glance they didn't do anything for me.
Plague Drones are probably getting pushed to back of the list. They're expensive, Nurgle, and I don't want to rework the rest of my list to support them.
Screamers look like they are at the top of my shopping list. They seem the most cost effective.

Hollismason wrote:Yeah Heralds of Slaanesh aslo make great reserve summoners as thy can outflank come on board and summon.

OoOoh, I may have to swap one of my heralds of Tzeentch for a Herald of Slaanesh and give that a try. At $22.50 a pop, I might just buy a box of Daemonettes and convert one

I know a lot of people like their seekers (I've never actually used them as I don't own any either, so take this with a grain of salt), but after many glances, they still haven't really done anything for me. They're fast, they're killy, but at T3 and 1W it just seems like they will die to the first thing that glances at them. Couple this with the fact that when Summoning, the vast majority of the time I'm just looking to tarpit something until my big hitters can get around to it, they're just not that attractive of an option. To accomplish that, I'll take Plague Drones, Hounds, or plain old Daemonettes any day. Fiends fulfill basically the same role as summoned seekers, but are T4 and have almost twice as many wounds, albeit at the price of less attacks and WS4 compared to WS5. Granted, if you are going for cost efficiency in terms of $$$ then hellll no I had no idea Fiends cost that much. I have 5 from when I bought my Daemons wholesale from a guy. Maybe that's why we haven't seen too many Fiendstars.

The ability to summon most of the unit choices available in the codex gives the Chaos Daemons general the ability to summon the right unit for the job, but encourages a ludicrously large collection of models to able to do so. Eventually, I'll most likely get a few units of basically everything, some little part of my brain treats 40K models like Pokemon and I gotta chach'em all, but for right now price per unit matters.

2 units of Plague Drones are pretty solid tarpit, but if that's all I have in my collection to summon, then I could probably get more mileage out of Battleforce (10 Plaguebearers, 3 Nurglings, 10 Bloodletters, 5 Seekers and 3 Screamers).

Right now I'm relying on summoning pink horrors in the way as speed bumps, while I summon more heralds, to hopefully sacrifice for more Greater Daemons.

Random Thought, and I don't have the books with me at the moment,

When the Portalglyph summons/brings forth 1d6 Daemons, do they get the free Champion, Musician, and Icon Bearer upgrades like a regular summoned unit does ?

No. Sacrifice is the only time that this happens

 luke1705 wrote:
No. Sacrifice is the only time that this happens

You mean Summon and Incursion ? Sacrifice gives you a herald with 30 points of upgrades.

Where are you seeing the free unit upgrades for summoning? I meant sacrifice gives you 30 pts of upgrades but the portapglyph explicitly disallows any upgrades.

It is in the section of the BRB for Conjurations, not in the power itself. Any spell that summons Daemons that can upgrade for a character, icon or musician may do so for free.

The Portalglyph does not have this wording, so you do not get those free upgrades

 Galef wrote:
It is in the section of the BRB for Conjurations, not in the power itself. Any spell that summons Daemons that can upgrade for a character, icon or musician may do so for free.

BRB pg 27 "If a conjuration power creates a unit from codex: Chaos Daemons and that unit's army list entry includes an option to take an Icon of Chaos, an Instrument of Chaos, and/or the option to upgrade one model to a character, you may take any of these options for free provided you have the appropirate model available. Unless stated otherwise, the unit can not take any further upgrades or options."

The Portalglyph does not have this wording, so you do not get those free upgrades

Thanks, I didn't have the codex with me. Yeah, it specifically says they have no upgrades.

 adamsouza wrote:

luke1705 wrote:Seekers ...Plague drones...Can't go wrong with screamers....Those are definitely the top three...

I'll have to read into Seekers a bit more, at first glance they didn't do anything for me.

Seekers are Demonettes that move 12", can Outflank and have an extra attack plus Hammer of Wrath, for 3pts more. They're very well costed, so much so that you're probably better off buying them as Fast Attack rather than Summoning - especially since you only summon units of 5 Seekers, whereas you get 10 Demonettes per summon.

I think it's the fact that they remind me of Sea Horses with legs that has always prejudiced me againt them. Looking at the what they can do makes them a bit more appealing.

The fact that they are 3x bigger than a Space Marine, yet still only 1W at T3 is what kills Seekers for me.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

Definitely need the Prince to do some heavy lifting, as well as the LoC. Hounds are more for forcing my opponent to shoot at them early on or risk their shooty stuff being tied up in combat for multiple rounds while I get the summoning ball rolling.

I slapped on some irridescents because I had 10 points left and I figured that they would provide a modicum of insurance against a result of 3 on the Warpstorm table. I'm not terribly worried about scatter because with 12 rolls minimum on Malefic, I should have at least one Cursed Earth, hopefully more.

I put the LoC in there instead of fatey because I felt like I really needed another beatstick. Without another (possible) close combat monster in the list, I'd be leaning really hard on the Nurgle Prince. Do you think it would be wise to skim some points from the Hounds to get Be'Lakor in there? Knowing all of telepathy is always nice.

Be'lakor is good, but he can't summon. You also don't have any particularly amazing targets for Invisibility, especially considering you want to throw 6-8 dice at it (ie, 1 summons worth of dice) to ensure it is successful. His other great spell is shrouding when combined with Screamers, but you don't have those either. With the list you have, I probably wouldn't take him, unless you use him in a melee role.

I'd definitely take an icon or two if you can. Every dice you waste casting cursed earth is one less dice to summon with. Even just to get the ball rolling with your first summoning, then you start bringing in icons anyway.

Have you considered using a CSM Nurgle Daemon Prince + Cultists instead for your allies? With a spell familiar, they summon as reliably on 5 dice as your other caster do on 7 - this is equivalent to another 100pts worth of horrors right there.

Remember that when you're summoning, it takes 300pts worth of Horrors to summon on 100pts worth of Daemons (if you're lucky). You do get the element of surprise and flexibility to tailor your army mid game, but just remember that tradeoff that you're making there - is it better to simply take a 20-strong squad of Flesh Hounds instead of more horrors?

Personally I've found that trying for 1 sacrifice and 2 summons per turn is about the maximum you can pull off while still maintaining credible threats. Thats around 15 dice, base, plus whatever you get from warpstorm.

If you want to go real heavy summoning, I've found the Nurgle Circus the best (GUO, 2xTzerald, 2xHorrors, 3x Nurgle DP). You get 22 dice base while having 3 relatively durable combat monsters if you need them - enough for 3 summons + a sacrifice. Trying to do the same with Tzeetch seems to leave me with roughly the same number of dice but less durable combat potential.

 adamsouza wrote:
I think it's the fact that they remind me of Sea Horses with legs that has always prejudiced me againt them. Looking at the what they can do makes them a bit more appealing.

Hippocampus Erectus? Come on, it sounds so slaanesh.

Trasvi wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:

Definitely need the Prince to do some heavy lifting, as well as the LoC. Hounds are more for forcing my opponent to shoot at them early on or risk their shooty stuff being tied up in combat for multiple rounds while I get the summoning ball rolling.

I slapped on some irridescents because I had 10 points left and I figured that they would provide a modicum of insurance against a result of 3 on the Warpstorm table. I'm not terribly worried about scatter because with 12 rolls minimum on Malefic, I should have at least one Cursed Earth, hopefully more.

I put the LoC in there instead of fatey because I felt like I really needed another beatstick. Without another (possible) close combat monster in the list, I'd be leaning really hard on the Nurgle Prince. Do you think it would be wise to skim some points from the Hounds to get Be'Lakor in there? Knowing all of telepathy is always nice.

Be'lakor is good, but he can't summon. You also don't have any particularly amazing targets for Invisibility, especially considering you want to throw 6-8 dice at it (ie, 1 summons worth of dice) to ensure it is successful. His other great spell is shrouding when combined with Screamers, but you don't have those either. With the list you have, I probably wouldn't take him, unless you use him in a melee role.

I'd definitely take an icon or two if you can. Every dice you waste casting cursed earth is one less dice to summon with. Even just to get the ball rolling with your first summoning, then you start bringing in icons anyway.

Have you considered using a CSM Nurgle Daemon Prince + Cultists instead for your allies? With a spell familiar, they summon as reliably on 5 dice as your other caster do on 7 - this is equivalent to another 100pts worth of horrors right there.

Remember that when you're summoning, it takes 300pts worth of Horrors to summon on 100pts worth of Daemons (if you're lucky). You do get the element of surprise and flexibility to tailor your army mid game, but just remember that tradeoff that you're making there - is it better to simply take a 20-strong squad of Flesh Hounds instead of more horrors?

Personally I've found that trying for 1 sacrifice and 2 summons per turn is about the maximum you can pull off while still maintaining credible threats. Thats around 15 dice, base, plus whatever you get from warpstorm.

If you want to go real heavy summoning, I've found the Nurgle Circus the best (GUO, 2xTzerald, 2xHorrors, 3x Nurgle DP). You get 22 dice base while having 3 relatively durable combat monsters if you need them - enough for 3 summons + a sacrifice. Trying to do the same with Tzeetch seems to leave me with roughly the same number of dice but less durable combat potential.

Hey thanks for the input.

I do have a couple of counter points though:

Why does Be'lakor need to summon? There's no way I'd ever have enough warp charges to throw at every summoning power available to my list so there's no real need to summon with him. I am using him in a combat role in the games I've played with this list, and I feel that either Be'lakor himself or the Nurgle Prince are perfectly valid beneficiaries of Invis. I think of it as Grimoire Insurance in the same way as Fateweaver is in most lists, except that I get a credible combat threat out of Be'lakor over Fateweaver.

I can't agree with your assessment that casting Cursed Earth is wasting dice. In a list like mine where I have sizable blobs of infantry in the back, buffing all those saves to a 4+ AND pinpointing deepstrikes is worth at least 4 dice.

I have toyed around with the idea of a CSM Prince since they can take a spell familiar, but I like the redundancy of the greater rewards table combined with rolling on Biomancy too much to have tried it yet. Maybe in the future.

I like the Nurgle Circus you suggested, but its around 1700 pts (assuming maxing out on rewards for GUO and Princes) and I'm making a list for a 1500 pt tourney. I've got 21 dice to that list's 22 so plenty of summoning for a 1500 pt game (I hope), and a little bubble wrap/pressure unit in the form of hounds.

Be'lakor slapping Shrouded on himself and a couple of Tzeentch Daemon Princes within 6"

Jink the Princes for a 2+ cover rerollable. Only works when your enemy doesn't have ignore cover weapons. But then again, so do Nurgle Daemon Princes.

but remember nurgle princes cant run or sweep, limiting their usefulness.

 Hansisaf wrote:
Be'lakor slapping Shrouded on himself and a couple of Tzeentch Daemon Princes within 6"

Jink the Princes for a 2+ cover rerollable. Only works when your enemy doesn't have ignore cover weapons. But then again, so do Nurgle Daemon Princes.

And also remember that Tzeentch D-Prince still got that reroll-ones. Wave serpent shields and ignore cover tau missile's still gives them more resilience compared to a Nurgle-D-Prince.

I do have trouble getting on the Nurgle DP train when Be'Lakor just does so much more (not to mention he might even be CHEAPER)

I was looking for something to use for a Nurgle Herlad on a palaquin

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/tot/latest/50145
Dr. Totenkranz ($12.99)

I'd of course throw some random nurglings all over it.

Could get 2 of these and a box of Nurglings for the price of Epidemius $49.50 . It doesn't appear that GW makes a Generic Nurgle Herals on a palaquin.

 luke1705 wrote:
I do have trouble getting on the Nurgle DP train when Be'Lakor just does so much more (not to mention he might even be CHEAPER)

That's why you bring both Fully decked out Nurgle Prince is 5 pts less than Be'la (whoopee) and with even a decent combination of greater rewards and Biomancy powers can be quite the monster. Obviously Be'lakor has the set psychic powers, guaranteed EW, and his S7 fleshbane armorbane going for him, but the Balesword can be invaluable some games and the Prince stands a really good chance of being able to take on targets that would make even Be'lakor squeemish. I mean if I could take 3 Be'lakors then why not, but I can only have 1 and that's why comparing Be'lakor to a prince isn't all that great of an analogy.

The real debate would be Tzeentch vs Nurgle DP. I'm in the Nurgle camp as they are they best independent operators, but I'm sure Tzeentch can be quite good if played well. I'm just not a fan of having to group my MCs

I like to think of Tzeentch units being scalpels and Nurgle troops being Mallets. It's easy, and fun, to play whack a mole with Nurgle, but Tzeentch units need to be used with surgical precision. Blunt force or finesse, if you will.

I decided the next upgrades to my Daemon Hordes should be some screamers, herlads on discs, and maybe even some screamers pulling some heralds on discs