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KillswitchUK wrote:
Where are you getting this from? I kmow you are on about joul humes list. I helped him design his new one and it is certainly not winning all the uk tournaments. Perhaps local 3 gane tourneys yes but thats it. Not taking discredit from joel his a solid player but you make out that the uk is being overrun with wolfstar....well its not. Cally there wasnt a wolfstar near the tip tables. Table 1 last game was myself with Tau and james with necrons. I dont recall a large tournement where wolves won it so calm this hysterical ranting lol!

The unit is solid in combat but all you do is shoot the feth out of it. Either that or fly around it. Daemons eldar and tau all dk this well. Daemons are the biggest threat to them and daemons ha e a huge presence in the scene. 9 hornets can crush all those fancy 2 plus saves. Dont forget UK tourneys rule twc as str 9 not 10.

Joel. Yep. (Well done helping him withthe list - it's a doozy) And Mike Collins won Battlefield Birmingham two weeks ago with his Wolfstar (different, possibly stronger build) also Norwich LazBlast was won by Andrew Humphris.

And yes. I'm painting up a second squadron of hornets to help deal with this (though I'd love to come up with a non Forgeworld solution).

During my brief time playing 40k most of the power builds have been based around shooting loads and loads and where a Deathstar has been involved it has been built around durability rather than crushing assault power. These pesky mutts go through your backlines.

What it's making me think about is that, yes: shooting is great, but mobility and deployment shenanigans with your shooty units are incredibly inportant against lists like this. I haven't beaten a decent Wolfstar yet (I've beaten TWC, but not these combined up FNP builds backed up with allied comboing. I've put two units of broadsides and a unit of hornets and three riptides into it for two turns and ALMOST killed it.but the. They are all stuck in a corner. And that was a version that did not have Scout! Anyway. I think you're right: lots of shooting, but mobile and/or outflanking seems like a good idea...

Centurian stars that are powered up will put a serious dent in that unit. Also just like any opponent that build a massive super unit, many objective secured units beats this with skilled generalship.

Um. No. Cent star not great against actually. The unit is average armour save 4+ due to all the wolves. And then tanking on a Stormshield probably with FNP. All of those tournament winners I'm talking about beat Centurions either podding or with Draigo and chums.

Anyway. Take X unit isn't really tactical advice. What's the knack with te good generalship?

Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

Ad Lance is super overrated. Iron Priests smash Knights. And all those ablative wounds! You need lucky sixes. As I said, if you are shooting with cents, you probably get one turn before your cents get ate. Lynx would hurt it. It's designed to go through a wave serpent spam army though.

Bring a blob of guards, conscripts and priests. Tarpit them all game. Have another 800+ points spent elsewhere.

Bloodthirsty vikings? Riding on enormous wolves? Send in the next wave, i say!

Low ap is best when they only get 3++ saves. Irontides with 2 shot fusion blasters are good for shooting then jumping away. Grav cents that are 20 to 24 inches away should get 2 roynds of shooting which hurt them a lot.

KillswitchUK wrote:
Low ap is best when they only get 3++ saves. Irontides with 2 shot fusion blasters are good for shooting then jumping away. Grav cents that are 20 to 24 inches away should get 2 roynds of shooting which hurt them a lot.

TWC more 12" and ignore difficult terrain like bikes and have Fleet. They will catch Centurions at 20". Only at 24" will it get tricky.

Personally, hosing them down with high S shots is the way to go. TWC of all kinds fall to massed Serpent fire, Broadside Missile spam, Warp Spiders and pretty much everything that has high frequency shooting with at least S5.

dark_red wrote:
It's a very strong unit, I've played vs it a few times now each time with a slightly different loadout. Strongest was 3 iron priests 5twc and a wolf lord. It hurt but luckily I had loads of strength 10 that day. Luck the draw

I tend to play BA or Ig or both together. As other people have said fast vindicators are very good but if the sw list is balanced they will normally pod meltas near your s10 tanks so you need multiples. Ig wise manticores work OK but the ap4 hurts a little but least you have range.

My favourite although sometimes a mad tactic is meeting them head on, mephiston with iron arm endurance, force and forwarning ideally with a group of ss th terminators works really well. Once you have them held charge in some dc and some dc dreads and you will see some carnage

If all else fails take three vultures with punishers and fire 60 S5 tl shots each turn. Weight of fire wins

Manticores have a minimum range and are not permitted to fire within that minimum which means that Scout likely means you cannot even fire the Manticores once!

they can fire inside the 24" min range but always scatter. On a big pack of twc I found this doesn't really matte. when I have run 1 it usually gets a few kills

dark_red wrote:
they can fire inside the 24" min range but always scatter. On a big pack of twc I found this doesn't really matte. when I have run 1 it usually gets a few kills

Manticores cannot direct fire. They have a special rule preventing it, which means minimum absolute range of 24".

 Kholzerino wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

Ad Lance is super overrated. Iron Priests smash Knights. And all those ablative wounds! You need lucky sixes. As I said, if you are shooting with cents, you probably get one turn before your cents get ate. Lynx would hurt it. It's designed to go through a wave serpent spam army though.

Fair enough on adlance it was a poor example. Cents your off base on. Two rounds min isn't hard to pull off just by shooting the front off after which they still aren't guaranteed anything due to gate. If they do reach combat against an invisible unit packing initiative order ID weapons it's still not a great match for what's left and they got 1 phase to make it count. They can't splinter off either because individual elements can't handle opposing stars. Grav also allows speed bump units to be effective by reducing init to 1 for h&r tests.
And again where's the storm shields? I'm seeing max 4 cmd models and the wolf hq (I've seen dual wgbl) if they want fnp, one more if they forego scout. That's not enough to protect the unit and the unit needs scout for reasons above. That star runs 1150 min and easily reaching 1300+ if going with TWC based no fnp.

It's a cool concept but it's not the first. It's a meq remake of the beast pack only more killy but without unit wide invulns, fortune/invis and susceptible to grav. Beast pack was better IMO because it cost half as much.

wtnind wrote:

dark_red wrote:
they can fire inside the 24" min range but always scatter. On a big pack of twc I found this doesn't really matte. when I have run 1 it usually gets a few kills

Manticores cannot direct fire. They have a special rule preventing it, which means minimum absolute range of 24".

Didnt they do away with minimum range in 7th? along with pinning (WTF)

It sounds like a tough cookie for sure.

It seems the best way to deal with them is to go for the juggular and straight D weapon them from range and hope for the best.

Otherwise getting inside combat with them with an even more insane star though the H&R is a big annoyance.

 Desubot wrote:

wtnind wrote:

dark_red wrote:
they can fire inside the 24" min range but always scatter. On a big pack of twc I found this doesn't really matte. when I have run 1 it usually gets a few kills

Manticores cannot direct fire. They have a special rule preventing it, which means minimum absolute range of 24".

Didnt they do away with minimum range in 7th? along with pinning (WTF)

It sounds like a tough cookie for sure.

It seems the best way to deal with them is to go for the juggular and straight D weapon them from range and hope for the best.

Otherwise getting inside combat with them with an even more insane star though the H&R is a big annoyance.

They did not do away with it, but rather changed it around so that you can only direct fire within your minimum range. Which requires you to have Line of Sight, or in the manticore's case, is prohibited.

dominuschao wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

Ad Lance is super overrated. Iron Priests smash Knights. And all those ablative wounds! You need lucky sixes. As I said, if you are shooting with cents, you probably get one turn before your cents get ate. Lynx would hurt it. It's designed to go through a wave serpent spam army though.

Fair enough on adlance it was a poor example. Cents your off base on. Two rounds min isn't hard to pull off just by shooting the front off after which they still aren't guaranteed anything due to gate. If they do reach combat against an invisible unit packing initiative order ID weapons it's still not a great match for what's left and they got 1 phase to make it count. They can't splinter off either because individual elements can't handle opposing stars. Grav also allows speed bump units to be effective by reducing init to 1 for h&r tests.
And again where's the storm shields? I'm seeing max 4 cmd models and the wolf hq (I've seen dual wgbl) if they want fnp, one more if they forego scout. That's not enough to protect the unit and the unit needs scout for reasons above. That star runs 1150 min and easily reaching 1300+ if going with TWC based no fnp.

It's a cool concept but it's not the first. It's a meq remake of the beast pack only more killy but without unit wide invulns, fortune/invis and susceptible to grav. Beast pack was better IMO because it cost half as much.

Lots of good points. The things that are better about this than Beastpack:
lots of str 10 Attacks. Think it's 5 each on the charge from the iron priests. So 20. WS 5 T 5. Plus all the wolves and runs priests.

Tougher. T 5. Better saves. No it doesn't have unit wide invulnerables. It has some, which are better than demon saves or Farseer saves and need to be placed appropriately based on the enemy and it has multiple 2+ armour saves (whilst keeping a majority 4+ vs gravs).

More fast units that can split off to score. Possibly seven. And they're all beastly!

If you are going to assume that you get Invisibility off on your cent star I will get Endurance off on the Wolfstar. Anyway. Yes. Centstar with Draigo, a kitted out GK Librarian and Tiggy and five cents is a powerful build. And if you are a good player, I'm sure you can do well with it against this list. But I saw wolfstar go through that list at a tournament last week. Correction. It was Loth, not Tiggy. And That wolfstar army was still fitting in two sicarans and a drop pod full of centurions too.

Instead of low AP weapons (that are usually low shots) why not just high Str & high number of shots?

Like lots of Multi-Las / HB Chimeras, Punishers, Splinter Cannons, Burst Cannons, etc.

Just force them to take a hundred saves.

 Kholzerino wrote:

dominuschao wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

Ad Lance is super overrated. Iron Priests smash Knights. And all those ablative wounds! You need lucky sixes. As I said, if you are shooting with cents, you probably get one turn before your cents get ate. Lynx would hurt it. It's designed to go through a wave serpent spam army though.

Fair enough on adlance it was a poor example. Cents your off base on. Two rounds min isn't hard to pull off just by shooting the front off after which they still aren't guaranteed anything due to gate. If they do reach combat against an invisible unit packing initiative order ID weapons it's still not a great match for what's left and they got 1 phase to make it count. They can't splinter off either because individual elements can't handle opposing stars. Grav also allows speed bump units to be effective by reducing init to 1 for h&r tests.
And again where's the storm shields? I'm seeing max 4 cmd models and the wolf hq (I've seen dual wgbl) if they want fnp, one more if they forego scout. That's not enough to protect the unit and the unit needs scout for reasons above. That star runs 1150 min and easily reaching 1300+ if going with TWC based no fnp.

It's a cool concept but it's not the first. It's a meq remake of the beast pack only more killy but without unit wide invulns, fortune/invis and susceptible to grav. Beast pack was better IMO because it cost half as much.

Lots of good points. The things that are better about this than Beastpack:
lots of str 10 Attacks. Think it's 5 each on the charge from the iron priests. So 20. WS 5 T 5. Plus all the wolves and runs priests.

Tougher. T 5. Better saves. No it doesn't have unit wide invulnerables. It has some, which are better than demon saves or Farseer saves and need to be placed appropriately based on the enemy and it has multiple 2+ armour saves (whilst keeping a majority 4+ vs gravs).

More fast units that can split off to score. Possibly seven. And they're all beastly!

If you are going to assume that you get Invisibility off on your cent star I will get Endurance off on the Wolfstar. Anyway. Yes. Centstar with Draigo, a kitted out GK Librarian and Tiggy and five cents is a powerful build. And if you are a good player, I'm sure you can do well with it against this list. But I saw wolfstar go through that list at a tournament last week. Correction. It was Loth, not Tiggy. And That wolfstar army was still fitting in two sicarans and a drop pod full of centurions too.

While the success of the power isn't guaranteed the access is. Not so for endurance plus the warp charge difference. Meh anyway I like the list although I would gravitate a little more towards msu support in this case.

Have you seen such an army go up against a full gun battery like ig or ia13 wyvern/artie spam or even orks can throw down? Massed barrage with a smattering of low ap will shred that unit pretty handily, especially protected by 4++ or 4+ fnp blobs or counter assaulting mobs.

No. Been considering the 12-15 broadside unlike for a while now. On a friend's recommendation. I think that would be problematic for this. Especially with counterfire and supporting fire combo.

I haven't played against a fully kitted cent star for a bit. (just luck of the draw) - do you think they are problematic in games where there is a tonne of terrain?

They are. They can move around without much care but getting to them becomes harder. Both sides benefit from cover but they can pull perfect timing. I rarely play on terrain lite boards so I dint really have a baseline for that.

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

When I played against it it had support in 5 drop pods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Bring a blob of guards, conscripts and priests. Tarpit them all game. Have another 800+ points spent elsewhere.

Bloodthirsty vikings? Riding on enormous wolves? Send in the next wave, i say!

You cannot Tarpit it if they have hit and run... which they almost always will, at least that's is the focus of this thread.

The two ways iv been beaten and have beaten twc lists is two ways, mass fire or s10.

Don't get why people are saying low ap is good vs a unit with ss on most of not all models. I was beaten last night by a guard and gk player who had a funny list, he had two Lots of 2 russ punishers and 2 vultures vultures. Weight of fire destroyed me me. Didn't help he had a couple of rounds fire 2 wyvern. Hammer and anvil cost me big time time.
Second way iv used manticores or get mephiston th terminators with a gk lib casting hammer hand into combat. You won't always win but will kill a decent amount

Your talking about a different build. The one being discussed has few shields but fnp.

So I'm curious ... does anyone have the lists that recently won in the UK? I've seen a centurion squad in a wolfwing list but not a centstar ... just three cents as an almost late addition ... I also would be curious as to what people believe to be the common iteration of the build. I've seen wolfwing played with Canis, WGBL and RPs joining fen wolves as the star and the T-Wolves seperate to the rest ...
so 2x 10 Fen wolves as troops, 3x T-woldf squads as backup. No FNP or hit and run on the squad.

So how you beat the star really depends on the rest of the list. A player around here uses an IK in his list always. So if you are thinking - hmm ... I want to go after a star which is 10 fen wolves, six cyberwolves and characters ... you still need to deal with the IK and three squads of T-Wolves ...

Ik would be a good idea imo.

Take a paladin and blast it with battlecannons as it advances, get rid of as many shields as you can, then get stuck in. If (when) you die, you stand a good chance of crippling the squad in the explosion.

Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

But would the wolfstar want to charge something that, when it dies, can ID every model in the unit.

Can = Likely. Most things are theoretically possible, but part of the game is weighing the odds and going with what is likely.

Sometimes it doesnt work out and the knight rolls three D stomps. But you cant bank on that, you have to play the probability game(notice I did not say odds)

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

But would the wolfstar want to charge something that, when it dies, can ID every model in the unit.

All Guts no Brains. I don't play TWC star lists, but I do play TWC a lot (usually lances and shields) I don't care what im going to charge in on big or small

Don't forget vanilla TWC pack leaders get cheap melta bombs, as well as rending on all of our attacks. Tarpits either get eaten by claws or swept up, and relics add a whole new level of synergy by giving them all Furious charge and the bearer rage. I hate seeing only one unit from my dex get used like this (Im not a fan of stars in general)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And unless im forgetting something TWC have 2 wounds a piece not 1 idk where someone had that idea earlier.

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks.

For reference: Space wolf characters are initially S4, doubled to s8 and then add +1 for thunderwofl (so s9). Thunderwolf calvary are base s5 doubled to s10. It doesn't really matter much, except if you have toughness 5 guys and they don't have rad grenades.

Would it be possible to get a more detailed description of the supporting elements of the lists, or the lists themselves that are winning?

I've seen white scar lists take the champions detachment for one character and 2 priests with wolves. I've seen lists with smaller stars backed by knight titan(s). A list backed by centurions, or bikers, or fliers, or knights, or drop pod spam would be handled differently.

Two rune priests - telepathy to try to get invisibility or biomancy for iron arm - would radically change what might work if they manage to roll the power they need (far from guaranteed), and at that level (4+d6) you might expect to have enough dice to deny their buffs.

Broadside s7 ap4 shooting would be very painful for this list, as would volume of fire from wave serpents and the like. Wyvreens and volume ordnance, especially anything that lets you pick off the apothecary would really put a dent in the survivability of the unit. If you can maneuver your firing arks it's going to be very tricky for them to always have the right armour save in the right position at which point you can probably start picking them off. With scout they're likely charging you second turn.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

But would the wolfstar want to charge something that, when it dies, can ID every model in the unit.

All Guts no Brains. I don't play TWC star lists, but I do play TWC a lot (usually lances and shields) I don't care what im going to charge in on big or small

Don't forget vanilla TWC pack leaders get cheap melta bombs, as well as rending on all of our attacks. Tarpits either get eaten by claws or swept up, and relics add a whole new level of synergy by giving them all Furious charge and the bearer rage. I hate seeing only one unit from my dex get used like this (Im not a fan of stars in general)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And unless im forgetting something TWC have 2 wounds a piece not 1 idk where someone had that idea earlier.

That someone was me and if you read all the OPs comments you'd know his problems stem from a bike command squad based star (ws/rw), not twc based. This build can only access shields on 1 wound cmd members outside of the wolf hq (if not using rp's) and possibly the allied hq (if not using khan/sammael/libbys).I also stated that above. There's basically 2 types both use attached priests + cyber wolves. We're discussing the fnp cmd squad type although the other is good, probably better IMO. Of course someone could include multiple hq's from both detachments but then the star is pushing 1500 pts.