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Hey everyone,
I'm not sure where to ask this, so I figured that "general" made the most sense.

I would like to figure out a rules way to equip some unit of space marines with storm shields and power swords. I would like non terminators preferably, but it might have to be terminators. Essentially, when I was looking at the SoB codex and saw their "Crusader" fellow I got excited, because I thought: WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN A THING ALREADY!

But now I'm having a hard time figuring out how to put together such a unit. It doesn't appear impossible, just difficult. So how about it? What's the best way to build some space-marine crusaders?

(and then for funsies we can put them into a land-raider crusader! ...but that might be too much.)

Not sure but Vanguard Vets can take them I think, possibly Death Company?

Possibly some of the Bodyguard type units (Honour Guard etc) too.

Vanguard Veterans and Command Squad can both take Storm Shields. So can Dark Angel Veteran Squads. Death Company and Wolf Guard (surprised about them actually) can not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My bad actually. Space Wolves can in fact take Storm Shields. Any model with access to the Melee Weapon section can take Storm Shields so Wolf Guard can.

Oh wow: I totally missed out on the Vanguard Veterans! I even looked at their entry (*face palm*)

follow up question: Possibility of being effective? Like at all?

Very popular actually. In Blood Angels especially with Vanguard Veterans and a Priest to give FNP. Means that if a S8 AP3 blast hits, the Invulnerable Saves actually protect the majority of the squad. People here on Dakka have been swaying me over to the idea of them instead of my Tyranid tactic of 'let the little guys die'.

I just genuinely don't know if they'd be worth the price. You're paying about the same for terminators, which would have a 2+ instead of a 3+, and would have hammers instead of swords. Or, if you do want to stick with swords, can't you build SW termies with swords and shields? Which I think would be cheaper actually.

The only niche role I can really picture the unit filling is if you give them jump packs, at which point they're even more expensive. Other than packs their only real benefit is they can do sweeping advances. But you're still looking at a unit that only gets a 3+ save on T4, and that is only genuinely good against MEQ. Against armor 2 you're boned, and against any mob armies a sword is pointless.

They'd look sweet, seem pretty dangerous... but they'd be the first thing targeted, and are only really good at a killing a handful of units. For coolness sake I'd consider running them anyways, but don't expect miracles.

Yeah I really WANT to run some cause, as you said, coolness! ...but I'm concerned they might just be really pretty corpses.

(which probably means I'm totally going to run them anyway)

I don't find power swords really all that great. I think you're almost always better off with a combination of maces and axes. And if you want a shield, lightning claw is, strictly speaking, a power sword with shred for the same price. Shield allready denies bonus attacks, so LC is always better than a sword in this case.

Not that swords and shields can't work - it's just not optimal. Anywayz, you can always count them as LC. Or model them as wrist-mounted blades, for example.

Now if you simply get a Stormshield and leave your stock chainsword, it's all fine. Stormshield guyz tank ap3 or better wounds while power weapon guyz strike. Like in medieval wall-of-shields fights

 koooaei wrote:
I don't find power swords really all that great. I think you're almost always better off with a combination of maces and axes. And if you want a shield, lightning claw is, strictly speaking, a power sword with shred for the same price. Shield allready denies bonus attacks, so LC is always better than a sword in this case.

I think I'm probably missing something and maybe you can school me on it. I kinda thought the point of swords was that they strike at regular initiative, so they'd still be good against anything in less than Terminator armor? Is that bad? I was thinking a mix would be fine, as the shield bros would wipe up heavier armored foes with their hammers or axes, after the sword guys or LC guys got done in the initial part of the combat?

Or is it that the shield bros would actually "be" the ones using the swords? Is that it?

In either case, is a mix of faster and slower weapons okay, or would it make more sense to gear out the whole squad for one type of weapon attack?

The thing with a power weapon is that it costs almost like an extra guy. A power sword is 3 times more effective vs 3+ armored targets than a chainsword. However, when you factor in that there might be an invul save, the effectiveness goes down. And when you just take 2 guyz striking with chainswords against a target with just 5++, they're as effective as a power sword guy. But are 2 times more durable and can throw 1 extra nade in mellee when needed. Furthermore, if you run into a 2+ or, on the opposite, a horde with bad saves, you're better off with more chainswords. S: User ap3 is just too situational. And it focuses on killing targets that can allready be killed with chainswords effectively enough.

Thus, i think that a special weapon should do something more specialised. Like killing 2+ targets or tougher vehicles. Thus, a power axe or a power fist for non-characters are a prime choice imo. Mace has it's targets too. For example, ork bikers and 'ard boyz strongly dislike maces. And it's pretty fine vs vehicles too.

However, keep in mind that i'm all for boyz before toyz approach. I find a larger squad of barebones VV with a couple of shields and power axes/fists doing much better than a geared up squad with swords, LC, maces, axes, etc.

 koooaei wrote:
The thing with a power weapon is that it costs almost like an extra guy. A power sword is 3 times more effective vs 3+ armored targets than a chainsword. However, when you factor in that there might be an invul save, the effectiveness goes down. And when you just take 2 guyz striking with chainswords against a target with just 5++, they're as effective as a power sword guy. But are 2 times more durable and can throw 1 extra nade in mellee when needed. Furthermore, if you run into a 2+ or, on the opposite, a horde with bad saves, you're better off with more chainswords. S: User ap3 is just too situational. And it focuses on killing targets that can allready be killed with chainswords effectively enough.

Thus, i think that a special weapon should do something more specialised. Like killing 2+ targets or tougher vehicles. Thus, a power axe or a power fist for non-characters are a prime choice imo. Mace has it's targets too. For example, ork bikers and 'ard boyz strongly dislike maces. And it's pretty fine vs vehicles too.

However, keep in mind that i'm all for boyz before toyz approach. I find a larger squad of barebones VV with a couple of shields and power axes/fists doing much better than a geared up squad with swords, LC, maces, axes, etc.

Gotcha. I appreciate the explanation, that's very helpful

 koooaei wrote:
However, keep in mind that i'm all for boyz before toyz approach.

I'm not quite this viewpoint, but there is such a thing as throwing too many weapons on one guy. While it's sometimes nice to give an entire squad weapon upgrades, it's equally nice to only gear half of them and use those points elsewhere. There's nothing worse than taking a guy with a shield and then having him killed by non-AP weapons. And it's always nice to have a few guys in the squad that you can let die because they aren't carrying power weapons. It's part of the reason that it's bad that all terminators have to start with fists... inevitably, you're going to lose a few terminators before you get into melee, so it's a waste that the guys standing in the front of your squad were given the things, when they would have filled the exact same roll if they had no melee weapon at all equipped.

Oh, also, if you equip special weapons - take them on regular dudes and leave a sarge barebones. Regular dudes can't be challenged out. It's one of the things that goes in VV, Chosen or Nob'z favor.

One way to make it more effective for its points is to take the BA formation of 2 squads of 10 VVs (have to have jps), a squad of 10 sternies and a Raven. This formation gives free powerweapons for the VVs (and free combi-weapons for the sternies). Give the squads a priest, as mentioned above, and say, 5 storm shields. Costs 345pts. You have a 10 man unit, all with powerweapons and jps, 5 stormshields, plus a priest so you get +1ws and 5+fnp (and FC due to CT).

Wow! How come people are not abusing it yet?! Free power weapons on VV are very powerful. Pick a few shields and melta bombz and you're good to go!

Because the entire formation is nearly 1000pts naked and another CAD or Detachment is needed on top of that so still a two Troop choice tax in a codex that doesn't do Troops very well. And since Dante, who works VERY well in a list of that type, is another 220pts... It gets expensive FAST and very soon you're just out of points even at 2000. It's a huge investment and it leaves out some of the best models or better ways to use the models in favor of spamming Swords and such.

AND it doesn't have the Initiative 5 bonus that the normal Blood Angel Detachment has. That's the biggest downside right there. You can buy a Death Company squad all tooled up for 340pts with some Fists, Swords and FNP hitting BEFORE the enemy (in most cases and obviously not with the fists) or you can have just a regular Vanguard squad with toys. When you have access to Sanguinary Guard, 165pts for five with two S4 AP4 Assault shots, two handed Power Weapon standard, Jump Packs and 2+ Armor, who really cares about Vanguard? Also cheaper to actually purchase for some reason.

Yep, that has a point.

I'm fairly sure space wolves can do that with practically friggin everybody.

Every wolf guard, terminator,TWC, and lone wolf.