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 Steve steveson wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sucks to be a cop these days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want to go to far here but...isn't it reasonable to believe that a predominately black community is going to have more black traffic stops compared to white considering it is the predominant race?

Best to just ignore things like that and label all the cops as racists.

Our you could look at the facts... That are very easy to find.

From 2012 to 2014, 85% of people subject to vehicle stops by Ferguson police were African-American, 90% of those who received citations were black, and 93% of people arrested were black.

67% of the city's 21,000 residents are black, and 29% are white.

85% of people subject to vehicle stops are black. 12.7% are white.

The figures clearly show that this is not simply a matter of being a majority.

If you were looking further you'd have to pull out stops for expired registrations and vehicle damage (aka taillight out), and see what the stats are. Less wealthy classes routinely have higher pullover rates for those because-well frankly they don't have the money to waste.

Then you'd have to research local populations by economic status to see if there was a better correlation.

An interesting fly is that apparently Ferguson is on the mainline between the St. Louis airport and St. Louis. if true this mucks up a good analysis.

 d-usa wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

From 2012 to 2014, 85% of people subject to vehicle stops by Ferguson police were African-American, 90% of those who received citations were black, and 93% of people arrested were black.

67% of the city's 21,000 residents are black, and 29% are white.

85% of people subject to vehicle stops are black. 12.7% are white.

The figures clearly show that this is not simply a matter of being a majority.

Yes, they show that black people if Ferguson apparently commit more infractions than people from other races.

No, it shows that 67% of the city is black, and 85% of the people being stopped are black.

And that fact alone does not necessarily indicate racism.

I'm not sure how mixed race neighborhoods are/are not within the Ferguson PD jurisdiction, nor do I know what the crime rates in the various neighborhoods are. I could see one possible explanation is that LE resources are allocated to higher crime areas (and times) to weight the effort to where they believe it is most needed. It would then make sense that there would be more stops of all types in those areas with the most police. If those higher crime areas have a majority of the folks belonging to one race or another, I would then expect the folks of that race to be the subject of the majority of stops in those areas.

I have a relative who is a LEO in a pretty big city, and the neighborhood he is assigned to patrol has folks made up primarily of one race. It is no surprise that the majority of folks he stops in that area are members of that race.

Honest question, does anyone know how mixed the neighborhoods are in Ferguson? Or the crime rates in the neighborhoods?

EEssshhhhh sounds like everyone is in the mode "Us vs Them"

 Steve steveson wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Yes, they show that black people if Ferguson apparently commit more infractions than people from other races.

No it doesn't. Just because someone is stopped by the police does not mean they have done something wrong. In fact the evidence shows that the police are disproportionately targeting black drivers. If you read back you will see they are also twice as likely to be searched but 26% less likely to be found in possession of anything illegal.

They also say that 90% of those who received citations were black, and 93% of people arrested were black.

If a cop sees a guy committing an infraction they should stop him, not just let him keep going because they've already filled up their monthly 65% quota for traffic stops for black drivers.

 CptJake wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

From 2012 to 2014, 85% of people subject to vehicle stops by Ferguson police were African-American, 90% of those who received citations were black, and 93% of people arrested were black.

67% of the city's 21,000 residents are black, and 29% are white.

85% of people subject to vehicle stops are black. 12.7% are white.

The figures clearly show that this is not simply a matter of being a majority.

Yes, they show that black people if Ferguson apparently commit more infractions than people from other races.

No, it shows that 67% of the city is black, and 85% of the people being stopped are black.

And that fact alone does not necessarily indicate racism.

Very true.

In isolation is just shows that 67% of the city is black, and 85% of the people being stopped are black, and that 90something% of the people being arrested are black.
In isolation is doesn't show WHY the rates of stops and arrests are higher for the black population than the white population. That number doesn't show that the blacks in the city are more likely to be criminals than their white counterparts. That number doesn't show that whites commit less crimes. That number doesn't show that cops are a bunch of racists looking to stick it to the black community.

And the report didn't look at those numbers in isolation. It looked at procedures. It looked at departmental culture. It looked at many different variables, with the discrepancy of "% of blacks in city vs % of blacks stopped vs % of blacks arrested" being just one of those things.

When I read the report, I see exactly what I saw in person at my old fire department and I see the exact reason why I am no longer with that department.

The law enforcement in that area needs to clean up their act and the police need to police themselves better to get some healing.
The agitators in the community need to feth off and the community needs to police themselves better to get some healing.
The shooters need to be found, and I strongly hope that members of the community who know anything about this will step forward even at the risk of being branded Uncle Toms or something similar.

There is a ton of hurt, pain, and racial problems in that community (and that community is just one small place in our nation where problems like that still exist *looks down at those idiots in Norman, Oklahoma*). A ton of healing has to happen on both sides. We took steps backwards when cops during the initial protests pointed their guns at protesters and told them that they will kill them. We took a step forward with the release of the report that found that the feelings of the community were justified (not about the shooting, but the conditions that lead to the initial protests). Now we took a big step back with those idiots that shot the cops last night.

 Ouze wrote:

 whembly wrote:
race hustlers ginning up faux racism charges.

Those emails didn't really seem too "faux" to me. I mean, when you (to pick a single example) have a police supervisor sending racist jokes around the department, it's not exactly a far reach to think he might also police unprofessionally along those lines, and willing to overlook similar behavior in his subordinates.

I'm not defending that... but, to paint the whole PD? That's a wide brush.

Some numbers from that report:

From 2012 to 2014, 85% of people subject to vehicle stops by Ferguson police were African-American, 90% of those who received citations were black, and 93% of people arrested were black.

In 88% of the cases in which Ferguson police officers reported using force, it was against African-Americans. From 2012-2014 black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband.

I don't think there's any polishing that turd.

It is a pile of turd. But, not in the way this report is advocating.

The steaming pile of poo is the fact that there's actually policy to issue fines/infraction/asset seizure to maintain certain level of revenue.

Not because they're "picking on black people" or there's systemic racism.

Don't you have that one town where everyone knows you don't speed?

We'll... locally, we have about 10 towns that are like that... and most of them happens to be pre-dominantly black towns.

Yes sounds like Ferguson was a speed trap.

 CptJake wrote:

Honest question, does anyone know how mixed the neighborhoods are in Ferguson? Or the crime rates in the neighborhoods?

I do... what do you want to know?

There was a bit more to it than just some speeding tickets. and percentage of arrests.

Have a read of the 102 page report:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/04/politics/document-justice-department-ferguson-police/index.html

You read a 102 pd report from the DOJ? I'm so sorry for you.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sucks to be a cop these days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want to go to far here but...isn't it reasonable to believe that a predominately black community is going to have more black traffic stops compared to white considering it is the predominant race?

Its also reasonable when the black population accounts for a disproportionate amount of crime.

Really, the problem isn't cops disproportionately arresting people of a certain race, its the factors which have led to that race being responsible for more of the crime.

If so how many were the same individuals? As in repeats

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sucks to be a cop these days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want to go to far here but...isn't it reasonable to believe that a predominately black community is going to have more black traffic stops compared to white considering it is the predominant race?

Its also reasonable when the black population accounts for a disproportionate amount of crime.

Really, the problem isn't cops disproportionately arresting people of a certain race, its the factors which have led to that race being responsible for more of the crime.

Except in this case they are specifically targeting people of a certain race in the effort to raise revenue for the city.

Let's remember these police also arrested someone for having the same name of someone wanted for a crime, but his SSN didn't match up, nor did his DL #. That didn't stop them from arresting this innocent man, locking him up for the night, then beating him til he had to be taken to the hospital because he asked for a cot to sleep on. They then create a charge and charge him with destruction of government property, because they got his blood on their uniforms while they were beating him.

You can pretend they're not racists if you'd like, but the DOJ says otherwise. And have enough evidence to fill a 102 page report on just how racist these guys are.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
You read a 102 pd report from the DOJ? I'm so sorry for you.

the minecraft server is down and I'm a fast reader

110% of everyone in the Department is racist? Let's wait and see what DoJ does on restructure of personnel in the LE Department of Furgeson.

Good news, the Reichstag wasn't burned to the ground after all.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-shooting-police-officers-released-hospital/story?id=29573803

One thing to keep in mind that in the year 2015, racism isn't just the obvious "wear a white rope, fly the confederate flag, keep the blacks out of my neighborhood because n*****s are all criminals and we don't need their kind here" racism. And I think that the reason so many people get defensive about any accusation about racism is that they may also feel that this is the kind of behavior that they feel they are being accused of.

But racism isn't always obvious, and at times racism doesn't even have to be intentional. It can be a bias here, an off-handed remark there, a policy that affects one group more than the other, that when they are all combined can create a system and an environment that ends up targeting one group more than the other. You can declare that there are serious racial problems at the department, you could even say that it was a racist department, but that doesn't mean that every member of the department is racist.

It does however point to a leadership that at best was too weak to control the department and at worst was the source of these tendencies.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sucks to be a cop these days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want to go to far here but...isn't it reasonable to believe that a predominately black community is going to have more black traffic stops compared to white considering it is the predominant race?

Its also reasonable when the black population accounts for a disproportionate amount of crime.

Really, the problem isn't cops disproportionately arresting people of a certain race, its the factors which have led to that race being responsible for more of the crime.

Except in this case they are specifically targeting people of a certain race in the effort to raise revenue for the city.

Let's remember these police also arrested someone for having the same name of someone wanted for a crime, but his SSN didn't match up, nor did his DL #. That didn't stop them from arresting this innocent man, locking him up for the night, then beating him til he had to be taken to the hospital because he asked for a cot to sleep on. They then create a charge and charge him with destruction of government property, because they got his blood on their uniforms while they were beating him.

You can pretend they're not racists if you'd like, but the DOJ says otherwise. And have enough evidence to fill a 102 page report on just how racist these guys are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You read a 102 pd report from the DOJ? I'm so sorry for you.

the minecraft server is down and I'm a fast reader

I believe necessity is the ruling factor in most peoples lives. Most people, cops included, need their jobs to provide for themselves. To jeopardize their jobs for some "racist feelings" they have just doesn't make sense with that. There is literally no benefit to targeting blacks, in fact, if you want to make money for your police department you should target white people - they are more likely to pay and they are less likely to resist.

This is true. All points are true here.

Using police as tax collectors is BS and its not the police dept's fault (unless they are getting the money then its corrupt).

Institutional racism results from top down.

While disparate impact is not exclusive evidence, it is a point of data that may lead to more evidence.

Shooting at cops is bad, unless they try to touch your TexMex.

Zombie cops would never meet their ticket quotas.

sirlynchmob wrote:


You can pretend they're not racists if you'd like, but the DOJ says otherwise.

Well if the DOJ says it, it MUST be true.

 Xenomancers wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sucks to be a cop these days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want to go to far here but...isn't it reasonable to believe that a predominately black community is going to have more black traffic stops compared to white considering it is the predominant race?

Its also reasonable when the black population accounts for a disproportionate amount of crime.

Really, the problem isn't cops disproportionately arresting people of a certain race, its the factors which have led to that race being responsible for more of the crime.

Except in this case they are specifically targeting people of a certain race in the effort to raise revenue for the city.

Let's remember these police also arrested someone for having the same name of someone wanted for a crime, but his SSN didn't match up, nor did his DL #. That didn't stop them from arresting this innocent man, locking him up for the night, then beating him til he had to be taken to the hospital because he asked for a cot to sleep on. They then create a charge and charge him with destruction of government property, because they got his blood on their uniforms while they were beating him.

You can pretend they're not racists if you'd like, but the DOJ says otherwise. And have enough evidence to fill a 102 page report on just how racist these guys are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You read a 102 pd report from the DOJ? I'm so sorry for you.

the minecraft server is down and I'm a fast reader

I believe necessity is the ruling factor in most peoples lives. Most people, cops included, need their jobs to provide for themselves. To jeopardize their jobs for some "racist feelings" they have just doesn't make sense with that. There is literally no benefit to targeting blacks, in fact, if you want to make money for your police department you should target white people - they are more likely to pay and they are less likely to resist.

their jobs are not in jeopardy though, if they follow the recommendations from the DOJ, they will receive training and keep their jobs. If some cops continue to show "racist feelings" after that, then it will be up to the new chief to fix them. I'm not even sure if a police chief can fire officers, anyone know? So far other than the chief, they fired a clerk. The problem isn't just the police though, it's also in the courts as well.

White people are also more likely to lawyer up and not just pay the fines. Then the city loses money after a court case which based on the report would be tossed out for any number of unconstitutional practices. so the city pays legal fees & no revenue from fines.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Good news, the Reichstag wasn't burned to the ground after all.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-shooting-police-officers-released-hospital/story?id=29573803

Throwing the Nazi label pretty freely eh

 Jihadin wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Good news, the Reichstag wasn't burned to the ground after all.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-shooting-police-officers-released-hospital/story?id=29573803

Throwing the Nazi label pretty freely eh

Indeed. What the is that supposed to mean exactly?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Good news, the Reichstag wasn't burned to the ground after all.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-shooting-police-officers-released-hospital/story?id=29573803

Disgusting...

"Round Up the usual suspects"

I see the term "African American" thrown around a lot, is there something about first generation African immigrants I don't know about?

On the other hand, this is inexcusable. The race baiters like Eric Holder and Al Sharpton should be brought up on charges for incurring this whole mess to begn with.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
How convenient.

I get that the Ferguson police are the instigators and should be held accountable for what they've done.


But you are not helping anything.


Like at all.


(also IIRC the policemen shot were not Ferguson officers but adjacent force members)

They keep saying pistol but Jebus from the distance they're saying its sounds like a rifle. Even the live "video" they showed and from the sharp crack of the weapon discharging it sounds like a rifle


Edit

One M4 did get looted in that area

Both Obama and Holder have made statements about the incident

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31853547

The shooting of two police officers in Ferguson, Missouri, was a "heinous assault" that could undermine police reforms, said the US attorney general.

Two officers were seriously injured early during protests following the resignation of the police chief after a damning report about racial bias.

Such violence was "repugnant", Attorney General Eric Holder said.
. . .
Describing the assault, Mr Holder said: "Such senseless acts of violence threaten the very reforms that non-violent protesters in Ferguson and around the country have been working towards for the past several months."

He later added that the shooting "turned his stomach" with disgust.

President Barack Obama tweeted "violence against police is unacceptable" adding "Path to justice is one all of us must travel together".

Did he really just say "non-violent protesters in Ferguson and around the country have been working towards for the past several months"???

 whembly wrote:
Did he really just say "non-violent protesters in Ferguson and around the country have been working towards for the past several months"???

Did you really just imply that there were no non-violent protesters