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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:01:20
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Europeans tend to say their guys can do it.
Maybe they can. Our cops can't shoot the broad side of a barn, and thats before nonsense like NY's 13lb Glock trigger pulls.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:38:36
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Frazzled wrote:Europeans tend to say their guys can do it.
Maybe they can. Our cops can't shoot the broad side of a barn, and thats before nonsense like NY's 13lb Glock trigger pulls.
Europeans may believe that because IIRC the LEOs over there that are actually issued firearms are supposedly well trained. It always baffles me the way so many PDs here in the US spend so little time, money and effort on weapons training. The cops I know who are good shots learned that skil primarily with their own time and money.
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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:40:02
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Prestor Jon wrote: Frazzled wrote:Europeans tend to say their guys can do it.
Maybe they can. Our cops can't shoot the broad side of a barn, and thats before nonsense like NY's 13lb Glock trigger pulls.
Europeans may believe that because IIRC the LEOs over there that are actually issued firearms are supposedly well trained. It always baffles me the way so many PDs here in the US spend so little time, money and effort on weapons training. The cops I know who are good shots learned that skil primarily with their own time and money.
Weapons training is not cheap. It costs a lot of money. Police departments routinely aren't given enough money to do frequent training, and then when they take other measures to gather funds... well we get discussions like this.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:41:39
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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djones520 wrote:Prestor Jon wrote: Frazzled wrote:Europeans tend to say their guys can do it.
Maybe they can. Our cops can't shoot the broad side of a barn, and thats before nonsense like NY's 13lb Glock trigger pulls.
Europeans may believe that because IIRC the LEOs over there that are actually issued firearms are supposedly well trained. It always baffles me the way so many PDs here in the US spend so little time, money and effort on weapons training. The cops I know who are good shots learned that skil primarily with their own time and money.
Weapons training is not cheap. It costs a lot of money. Police departments routinely aren't given enough money to do frequent training, and then when they take other measures to gather funds... well we get discussions like this.
Is it really a lack of funds or is it a lack of priority in the allocation of funds? A lot of govt depts claim they lack funds but when you look at their budgets is amazing what they choose to spend money on.
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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:43:41
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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I tried to have my friend, who was arguing shoot the leg. I was ten feet away and gave him a BB gun to shoot me with.
I stood, not moving, in the cross position. He couldnt hit me.
Then I told him to hit my chest. And he could.
at ten feet AWAY. Imagine farther, or moving.
Now he is arguing "Use a Tazer"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:44:11
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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hotsauceman1 wrote:I tried to have my friend, who was arguing shoot the leg. I was ten feet away and gave him a BB gun to shoot me with.
I stood, not moving, in the cross position. He couldnt hit me.
Then I told him to hit my chest. And he could.
at ten feet AWAY. Imagine farther, or moving.
Now he is arguing "Use a Tazer"
Post the video please.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:47:42
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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We didnt record it.
Im not stupid.
I mean, it is anecdotal with someone who only ever shot a lasertag gun, but when he was told center mass, he hit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:48:18
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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hotsauceman1 wrote:We didnt record it.
Im not stupid.
I mean, it is anecdotal with someone who only ever shot a lasertag gun, but when he was told center mass, he hit.
I was referring to the taser. You're going to go through the same steps with a taser, right?
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:48:54
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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No......and if i do, he is on the recieving end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:49:31
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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A real man would follow through.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:52:49
Subject: Re:Ferguson police shot during protest
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Take it the the wood line. What happens in the wood line stays in the wood line. Also drink water. Figure I mention something before you two whip out something to measure
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:55:09
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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If its between getting not getting shcoked for SCIENCE and being a man
*Hands in Man Card"
But in all seriousness. What is the effective range of a tazer? and, if they are holding a gun, with finger on the trigger, cant the finger involuntarily clamp up?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:56:06
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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djones520 wrote:Prestor Jon wrote: Frazzled wrote:Europeans tend to say their guys can do it.
Maybe they can. Our cops can't shoot the broad side of a barn, and thats before nonsense like NY's 13lb Glock trigger pulls.
Europeans may believe that because IIRC the LEOs over there that are actually issued firearms are supposedly well trained. It always baffles me the way so many PDs here in the US spend so little time, money and effort on weapons training. The cops I know who are good shots learned that skil primarily with their own time and money.
Weapons training is not cheap. It costs a lot of money. Police departments routinely aren't given enough money to do frequent training, and then when they take other measures to gather funds... well we get discussions like this.
I think we did the math on here once during one of the "X federal agency gets 500,000 9mm rounds, why do they need that many rounds" discussion a few years back. Once we actually counted how many LE officers they had the giant pile of bullets was enough to let all of them shoot something like 25 rounds a month at the range.
Ammo can run up the budget fast. I know what I spend when I go to the range, and I'm not a department full of officers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:57:42
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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hotsauceman1 wrote:
If its between getting not getting shcoked for SCIENCE and being a man
*Hands in Man Card"
But in all seriousness. What is the effective range of a tazer? and, if they are holding a gun, with finger on the trigger, cant the finger involuntarily clamp up?
Firstly, you never bring a taser to a gun fight. If you do, well... you probably won't live long enough to worry about finger clamping, range, etc...
The taser is a less lethal option to use in a situation where the risk of deadly force is not present. Automatically Appended Next Post: d-usa wrote: djones520 wrote:Prestor Jon wrote: Frazzled wrote:Europeans tend to say their guys can do it.
Maybe they can. Our cops can't shoot the broad side of a barn, and thats before nonsense like NY's 13lb Glock trigger pulls.
Europeans may believe that because IIRC the LEOs over there that are actually issued firearms are supposedly well trained. It always baffles me the way so many PDs here in the US spend so little time, money and effort on weapons training. The cops I know who are good shots learned that skil primarily with their own time and money.
Weapons training is not cheap. It costs a lot of money. Police departments routinely aren't given enough money to do frequent training, and then when they take other measures to gather funds... well we get discussions like this.
I think we did the math on here once during one of the "X federal agency gets 500,000 9mm rounds, why do they need that many rounds" discussion a few years back. Once we actually counted how many LE officers they had the giant pile of bullets was enough to let all of them shoot something like 25 rounds a month at the range.
Ammo can run up the budget fast. I know what I spend when I go to the range, and I'm not a department full of officers.
Just for everyone elses knowledge, 25 rounds a month is nothing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/13 20:58:51
Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 20:58:57
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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But that is what people dont understand. They think a tazer is just like a gun, stops someone cold/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 21:02:12
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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hotsauceman1 wrote:But that is what people dont understand. They think a tazer is just like a gun, stops someone cold/
Well, if everyone was possessed of that mystical thing called sense, this world would be a much better place.
There is a very simple rule that all parents should teach your children. When a man with a firearm tells you to do something, do it. Whether or not the shooting ends up being justified, the chance of a shooting actually happening will plummet if you don't antagonize that person.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 21:03:39
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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djones520 wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:But that is what people dont understand. They think a tazer is just like a gun, stops someone cold/
Well, if everyone was possessed of that mystical thing called sense, this world would be a much better place.
There is a very simple rule that all parents should teach your children. When a man with a firearm tells you to do something, do it. Whether or not the shooting ends up being justified, the chance of a shooting actually happening will plummet if you don't antagonize that person.
That is what I tell people. Dont resist arrest or insult the officers. It the arrest is unlawful, you can take their buts to court and get reprimations.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 21:03:48
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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Prestor Jon wrote:Reuters has reported that the two cops that were shot were not part of Ferguson PD but were officers from other departments that had been sent to augment the police presence in Ferguson because of the large protest that was occurring there.
That sucks :-/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 21:04:52
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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Now the other PD can hold it over their heads.
"Oh, you dont want to help me move my couch? WHAT ABOUT THE TIME I TOOK A BULLET FOR YOU"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 21:05:41
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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RiTides wrote:Prestor Jon wrote:Reuters has reported that the two cops that were shot were not part of Ferguson PD but were officers from other departments that had been sent to augment the police presence in Ferguson because of the large protest that was occurring there.
That sucks :-/
Yup.
The unrest has over-taxed the Ferguson PD, such that the area departments are "filling in" as much as they can.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 21:20:27
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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hotsauceman1 wrote:I tried to have my friend, who was arguing shoot the leg. I was ten feet away and gave him a BB gun to shoot me with.
I stood, not moving, in the cross position. He couldnt hit me.
Then I told him to hit my chest. And he could.
at ten feet AWAY. Imagine farther, or moving.
Now he is arguing "Use a Tazer"
The effective range of a taser issued to a LEO is 35 feet (civilian version is 15 feet). I can't find a good source as to the accuracy of the taser, but it is worth nothing that it is a one shot device and would need reloaded if the intended target was missed. Given the short effective range if you intended target has a knife (much less a firearm) then missing may have very serious repercussions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 21:44:26
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I am a big advocate for all the less-lethal options out there, but it is important to realize the limitations.
1) Less-lethal doesn't always work.
2) Less-lethal isn't always appropriate and lethal options will have to be used.
3) Less-lethal can in fact be lethal.
It's another tool. No more, no less.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 22:45:43
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: cincydooley wrote:"Why didn't he just shoot him in the leg?"
That's the gak we've really got to get out of these narratives.
Shooting to wound has been debunked to the point of nausea. It seems to linger on as a Hollywood myth
Yeah, sometimes I wish Mythbusters would do an episode on this.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 23:37:00
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Stubborn Hammerer
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Trolling confirmed.
The police got exactly what it wanted. A justification for all their past and future actions. Sounds convenient to me.
Describing people being shot for what they're wearing as 'convenient' is a good way to alienate people from your cause.
Honestly, your comments are more convenient for people trying to make sure nothing changes than this development.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/13 23:53:18
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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djones520 wrote:
Just for everyone elses knowledge, 25 rounds a month is nothing.
gak, I'm not sure I'd even waste my time at the range if I was going to fire anything less than around 200 pistol rounds.....
Less if I'm shooting clays, obviously. I put 200 through between 4 rounds of skeet and 4 rounds of trap one day last fall; needless to say I won't be doing that again.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/14 00:01:51
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion
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If you think someone is trolling, report it. Further accusations in thread (which are both OT and rude) will result in a warning
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I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/14 00:42:57
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Stubborn Hammerer
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Roger that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/14 01:28:25
Subject: Ferguson police shot during protest
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Until they do;
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/08/mike-mcdaniel/shooting-wound-selling-popcorn/
Robert recently posted an article on a question posed to a guest by CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer:
“On Thursday, CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer asked guest [lawyer] Jeffrey Toobin why police weren’t instructed to ‘shoot to injure, instead of kill,’ talkingpointsmemo.com reports. “Blitzer’s questions arose during a discussion on the unfurling conflict in Ferguson, Mo. over the fatal police shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown. ‘They often shoot to kill,’ Blitzer said of police. ‘Why do they have to shoot to kill? Why can’t they shoot a warning shot in the air, scare someone off if they think they’re in danger. Why can’t they shoot to, injure, shall we say? Why do they have to shoot to kill?’”
Blitzer’s question is, sadly, all too common . . .
Americans are treated to a steady stream of good guys purposely and casually wounding bad guys, usually in the shoulder. On TV and in the movies, such beyond-Olympic-level shooting always disarms and incapacitates the bad guy, and when the good guy is similarly wounded, they are barely inconvenienced and heal with amazing speed.
Not only is this sort of shooting incredibly dangerous to good guys and innocent bystanders, it’s almost always legally disastrous. In addition, any survivable gunshot wound may have life-long health implications. As regular readers may remember from an earlier article, one shoots to stop an attacker, to immediately–to whatever degree that is possible–cause them to cease the hostile actions that made the use of deadly force legally permissible. For the purposes of this article, we’ll assume that all legal burdens have been met. The good guy, under the laws in force when and where he has to shoot, is legally in the right when he pulls the trigger. But how is he going to accomplish his purpose: stopping the bad guy?
There are three primary means of stopping a human being:
Neural damage
Breaking the skeleton
Exsanguination
There are, however, many other considerations.
1) Neural Damage: causing trauma to the brain usually causes immediate cessation of hostile action. In fact, SWAT marksmen try for a brain stem shot whenever possible. They try to hit a hostage-taker exactly where the brain and brain stem meet, at the base of the rear of the skull. If properly placed, a bullet to this spot will cause the potential killer to drop as though a light switch had been thrown. Even if they have their finger on the trigger of a gun, they will not be able to pull it.
Unfortunately, this area is a very small target. In fact, relatively speaking, the human head is also a small target, particularly if it’s moving at all. Notice too that I’m talking about a highly trained marksman making the shot with a scoped, highly accurate rifle, almost always with the benefit of a spotter and from a supported position. Accurately shooting a handgun at the same target, even at close range, is much more demanding.
In addition, the target will seldom present the back of his skull to the shooter and stand still long enough for a perfect shot to be made. Marksmen commonly have to estimate where that tiny spot is while shooting from the front, side, above or below, or various angles of the same.
2) Breaking the skeleton: while breaking a femur or the pelvis, for example, will cause most people to drop to the ground, they may very well still be capable of pulling a trigger. And if so, have merely been rendered less mobile, not stopped. Making such shots with any degree of reliability with a handgun is exceedingly difficult, not only because such targets are small, but also because people move more or less constantly and the precise location of a major, load-bearing bone in a given person’s leg may be difficult, at best, to determine. It’s also particularly difficult because, compared with rifle ammunition, most handgun ammunition lacks the power to reliably break large bones.
3) Exsanguination: someone shot in an artery, or even the heart, may have up to three minutes of useful consciousness if they are truly determined to kill you regardless of the damage they suffer in the attempt. However, once sufficient blood is lost, the resulting drop in blood pressure will inevitably lead to unconsciousness and ultimately death.
Of course, a combination of these three primary effects may be more effective and faster in stopping hostile action.
Fortunately, such matters are not only physical, but psychological. Many people, upon receiving even an easily survivable gunshot wound, immediately drop and cease hostile action due to the “OMG! I’ve been shot!” response. Others–thankfully relatively few–may absorb ridiculous numbers of bullets which might slow, but not stop them, as they try to continue their deadly attacks. This is frequently assisted by drugs present in their system. Such people eventually succumb to one or more of these effects, but “eventually” is not helpful or comforting if they are attacking you.
The best course of action is to aim for “center mass,” or the part of the torso at or around the sternum, and fire enough rounds to force the attacker to stop. It’s the cumulative affect of blood vessel damage, neural shock, and psychological shock that will have the greatest effect, therefore more than one round may be necessary.
Keep in mind that it is always a good idea, even if you cannot avoid or escape a potential deadly force situation, to do your best to avoid shooting. Always remember that when the justification to shoot ends, the shooting immediately ends.
You must never think about “shooting to wound,” let alone try to do it. The law doesn’t require it, and it will be highly likely to backfire for several significant reasons. Obtaining the desired stopping effect with a shot that inflicts only a non-mortal wound is highly unlikely and could conceivably enrage an attacker who will then press an attack he might have otherwise abandoned. The necessary physical damage and psychological effect is simply not there, and making such a shot accurately is highly unlikely.
In fight-or-flight situations, among the first abilities human beings lose–which accompany time distortion, tunneling and hearing loss–is fine muscle control. This makes it very difficult, perhaps even impossible, to formulate the intention to shoot someone effectively in a small portion of the body so as to immediately disable them, to say nothing of actually carrying out that intention. For most people, it’s simply physically impossible. There are many documented incidents of police officers–people supposedly highly trained in marksmanship and the use of deadly force–emptying their handguns at criminals doing the same from ridiculously close range. When the gunsmoke cleared, both weren’t touched; every round missed. Hitting center mass will be more than hard enough, but with proper training and practice, attainable.
An additional concern is that in the heat of battle, many people suffer serious wounds, but are unaware of it until the danger has passed. Despite suffering multiple gunshot wounds that might eventually kill them, they didn’t so much as feel the bullets hit them. Some people may be so high on drugs they’re incapable of feeing anything. Shooting an arm or leg will likely do nothing more than make a dangerous felon who’s intent on killing you somewhat less mobile, but no less deadly. Hitting center mass will maximize the probability of quickly stopping a dangerous attacker—whether they feel it or not.
Also, substantial legal liability may attach. If you were so cool and detached that you could shoot someone in the knee, did you really have sufficient reason to shoot them in the first place? If you really thought that you were in mortal danger, why did you take the time to shoot them someplace that any reasonable person should know wouldn’t reliably stop them?
Yes, stopping them will likely result in their death, but you didn’t intend to cause their death. You intended only to stop them from causing yours. That they subsequently died is regrettable, but they made that choice and forced it upon you. You aren’t the attacker, but an innocent victim who will be affected for the rest of your life by the action they brutally forced on you.
In all cases, if you shoot at all, you shoot to stop, and you accomplish this by delivering a sufficient volume of accurate fire to that part of the body most likely to cause them to stop. When the threat has stopped, you immediately stop.
At this point, you may find yourself experiencing some degree of revulsion. If so, good for you. You have a conscience. I can’t say often enough that no moral, rational human being wants to harm or kill another. Violence is cruel, nasty, hateful and bloody, but the choice is simple and stark: do you prefer to be alive and unharmed, or bleeding, perhaps dying on the ground, at the mercy of someone cruel and inhuman enough to attack you? Which alternative would you prefer for those you love? Which of these outcomes is morally superior?
Deadly force encounters aren’t scripted scenes in movies. They’re as deadly serious as any human interaction can be, and the loser frequently winds up assuming ambient temperature. Leave shooting to wound to the movies. An action hero’s job is to sell popcorn, and they don’t have to aim and shoot under pressure. They can afford the luxury of shooting to wound. You can’t, regardless of what Wolf Blitzer thinks.
Other useful links;
http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/127235-Special-Force-Science-series-Why-shooting-to-wound-doesnt-make-sense-scientifically-legally-or-tactically/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/14 01:33:42
Subject: Re:Ferguson police shot during protest
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Its always interesting when people get shot in the shoulder and its treated like a non-dangerous wound in film.
You've got a major artery in your shoulder that leads to your arm, its right where people usually get shot in movies too. You can bleed out incredibly fast if that's where you get shot.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/14 02:05:00
Subject: Re:Ferguson police shot during protest
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Kid_Kyoto
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Grey Templar wrote:Its always interesting when people get shot in the shoulder and its treated like a non-dangerous wound in film.
You've got a major artery in your shoulder that leads to your arm, its right where people usually get shot in movies too. You can bleed out incredibly fast if that's where you get shot.
I think this explains it nicely.
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