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This may already be a topic but I'm gonna start my own I want to know what people think of the dark Angels both players and non players and I don't want the simple "they suck blah blah blah". I mean really think about them I just read the book "Angels of darkness" plus "ravenwing" and all the heresy books. (So far) do you think they are truly a corrupt chapter without even knowing it? There obsession with the Fallen slowly leading them to their own downfall. Many other chapters and many orders within the imperium do not trust or even like working with them. I play them on the tabletop and personally love them the lore behind them their primarch was a strategic genius and kind of a hot headed untrusting being. Also yes I'm in agreement that he did sucker punch Lemun Russ during their fight (sorry space wolves). But what do others think of this dark and sort of misunderstood order?

7000 3rd Battle company
3000 1st Company
2500 2nd Company

I think they're awesome. Like em or hate em, they decided to pretty much do what was important to them, beyond the bounds of what was important to the rest of the Imperium.

Let me clarify that some.

The codex Astartes is written and every legion told to split up. They're answer: "Yeah sure, we'll totally weaken our overall ability to wage war, that's a freakin great idea." Then they loyally split into 1000 man units called chapters and totally didn't bother to tell anyone they were still basically operating their chapters as a functioning legion. And honestly, screw those other guys, when is it okay for someone "else" as in anyone "not you" to tell you how strong you're allowed to be. Some would call that politics or even reckless social engineering. In a universe as grimdark as theirs, I applaud their foresight in simply ignoring the demands of the various highlords and primarchs demanding a staunch protocol for other peoples legions.

They're credited with simply walking away from battles with their allies to pursue their own agendas, something the rest of the Imperium sees as bad. I honestly can't think of a good way to portray that in a good light, but in the end, I don't actually have to. I can respect their strength. It clear other's need that strength if they're that dependant on it in a theatre of war, but the simple fact is, they are their own chapter and they make no bones about it. Hate it all you want, decry their actions if you will, but in the end, they aren't there to do their allies a solid. They're strong enough and free enough to walk away and be about their own business, because in the end, it's more important to them. On a further note, who says their business (hunting down their former kin) aren't actually just as vital? Anywhere their kin turn up, there's entire population centers that might be damned to chaos if the threat isn't stamped out. Who decides what right about ignoring that threat?

I think my favorite thing about em though is that during the Horus Heresy it's strongly rumored the reason they didn't show up for the final battle is that they were waiting to see which side won. Chaos forces doubtless don't give a fig one way or the other, but the Imperium would decry that as cowardly, as traitorous, and as blasphemous. I would decry that as smart. Hedge your bets, because in the end, one side is going to annihilate the other. But also, seriously, you want a legion to pick a side and just start killing their brothers? Is it that easy? It is not. Loyalty to the imperium is all well and good, but it clearly hasn't prospered any since then, and could be it's own worst enemy in many situations. I feel like they have a strong need to deal with the problems they already have internally before seeing to the needs of the petty political organ grinding theocracy the imperium has become.

Anyways, there's lots more I could say about them, but overall I love em. Are they strong? Yes. Do they put their needs before others? Yes. Do they have failings? Yes. Are they fully loyal? Probably not. But like any strong individual, others will always whine and cry about them not helping or what is "owed" them. They aren't team players. You have to remember that.

It is do to all of that, I would actually like to see the dark angels become renegades. It obviously would destroy their reputation with the rest of the imperium, but I feel like they could operate well enough on their own

I've always thought the dark angels secrecy was perhaps their most tragic aspect.

had they come out and been HONEST about the fallen, right at the get go, no one likely would have cared too much. there may have been some mild scrutiny but the dark angels are hardly the only Legion that had internal conflict. indeed. they may well have been enchouraged and given extra resources, to pursue the fallen. instead they keep it secret, deny the IoM knowledge of a threat, deny themselves resources (how much easier would the hunt have been if they had been working hand in hand with the Inqusition?) now if the secrect ever got out there would be a scandle. but it'd proably be a case of the true scandal being the cover up

BrianDavion wrote:
I've always thought the dark angels secrecy was perhaps their most tragic aspect.

had they come out and been HONEST about the fallen, right at the get go, no one likely would have cared too much. there may have been some mild scrutiny but the dark angels are hardly the only Legion that had internal conflict. indeed. they may well have been enchouraged and given extra resources, to pursue the fallen. instead they keep it secret, deny the IoM knowledge of a threat, deny themselves resources (how much easier would the hunt have been if they had been working hand in hand with the Inqusition?) now if the secrect ever got out there would be a scandle. but it'd proably be a case of the true scandal being the cover up

This is W40k, being forth coming about it would've had serious questions and unneeded light on the DA. They would've been punished somehow and I bet Gulliman would've een sanctimonious against the Lion despite him being MIA officially and sleeping in reality. DA felt they failed the emperor with having some of their own who never interacted with Horus or his Chaos forces to fall to Chaos, thus shamed and their prior successes in the Crusade moot.

That being said I love the DA. The fluff is amazing as when they always take a leap forward they get knocked back three steps. I will agree that being not upfront with other IoM allies has been something to improve upon as in the Panodrax novel had Azreal kept his ego in check he would've helped Draigo get the Grey Knight psyker away from Abaddon.

I like them for the mystery/monastic theme, but also for their whole "1st Space Marines" idea as well. I would ideally like to see them have access to more ancient tech, relics, and such from the older ages of the Imperium, as I think that seems to fit their lore pretty well.

As one of the above folks said: it's also cool how they are still pretty much just a legion.

Only thing I've never cared about? The "Dark Angel Green"...uggh. Why can't you just make it black guys?

ajescorcia025 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I've always thought the dark angels secrecy was perhaps their most tragic aspect.

had they come out and been HONEST about the fallen, right at the get go, no one likely would have cared too much. there may have been some mild scrutiny but the dark angels are hardly the only Legion that had internal conflict. indeed. they may well have been enchouraged and given extra resources, to pursue the fallen. instead they keep it secret, deny the IoM knowledge of a threat, deny themselves resources (how much easier would the hunt have been if they had been working hand in hand with the Inqusition?) now if the secrect ever got out there would be a scandle. but it'd proably be a case of the true scandal being the cover up

They would've been punished somehow and I bet Gulliman would've een sanctimonious against the Lion despite him being MIA officially and sleeping in reality. D.

where's this idea that Gulliman's a dick come from? it's not borne out by ANY of the HH novels.

Fact is the White Scars had their own internal revolt to deal with? what happened to them? ohh right... NOTHING!

Had the Dark Angels said something originally when Luther turned to his own ideals I think they would have been spared. But now I know for a fact they cannot say anything the inquisition is far to set on "purifying the imperium" purging entire planets just cause someone mentioned the word daemon. Also true the Gulliman in the HH book "fear to tread" has my utmost respect but than again we don't really know what happens after the fall of the emporer and the second founding uet. As for the Lion waiting to see who won at the battle of terra I don't believe that either. I have a theory that he actually knew his legion would split. There's a short story in one of the HH novels (can't remember the name) where a watcher in the dark comes out and talks to the lion telling him he needs to return to Caliban to save his legion AND HE CHOOSES NOT TO but not for the reason you'd think. He's actually going to find his brothers Gulliman and sanguinious to tell them to stop trying to make their own empire and get their butts back to terra. This was the real delay I beleive as to why the lion didn't make it to the battle with his forces. I agree that the lion had trait issues after luthera first almost betrayel but he was always loyal and I think still is to this day. But being the honored first could also lead to why they don't want people to know the full truth and it is crazy there are layers within layers to knowing the truth behind the fallen. And indeed cypher how and why did the lions most loyal body guard someone who actually saved his life countless times during the assault on caliban turn against his "brothers"?

First off I am relatively new to Warhammer 40,000 after being a WFB Ork player about 30 years ago I returned to the hobby around 9 or so months back with the intent of building a Chaos Warriors army. After several visits to Games Workshop and inquiring about all this 40K stuff I became totally blown away with all the lore behind the universe and became captivated with the story of a very secretive Space Marine legion and their Primarch. I couldn't get enough- making excuses to visit GW to further these conversations with the store manager who was only too pleased to share his enthused knowledge with me. The whole DA backstory is astounding, I particularly like to soak up all things Cypher - anything to do with the hunt is right up my street. I quickly dumped my growing 600pt CW WFB army and began building my Dark Angels army and my own successor chapter -The Lion's Pride - a more codex astartes organised chapter (mainly so I could field some of the things that are not available to my DA's -Centurions anyone! lol)
I like the fact they put their own agenda before anything- someone said that they should have come clean- no one would have bothered- I sincerely doubt that- in fact I believe that had Terra found out they would have had them all branded heretics and offed! I also find it rather amusing any mention of the Inquisition dispatching their agents to the Rock and subsequently disappearing- what could have possibly happened to them? lol Then as if that wasn't enough we have the badass Deathwing and the uber cool Ravenwing on top of our already CAF mighty 1st legion regulars...sorry I mean chapter -right. I couldn't see me playing any other SM chapter with the same passion- even though I have found some pretty great background stories for many of our brethren. Well thats about all I can come up with off the top of my head so early on a cold Saturday morning. I'm off to begin basecoating a Rhino with my brand new Patriot 105 - cant wait to do the coms panel for the interiour.

Stalked21 wrote:
Had the Dark Angels said something originally when Luther turned to his own ideals I think they would have been spared. But now I know for a fact they cannot say anything the inquisition is far to set on "purifying the imperium" purging entire planets just cause someone mentioned the word daemon. Also true the Gulliman in the HH book "fear to tread" has my utmost respect but than again we don't really know what happens after the fall of the emporer and the second founding uet. As for the Lion waiting to see who won at the battle of terra I don't believe that either. I have a theory that he actually knew his legion would split. There's a short story in one of the HH novels (can't remember the name) where a watcher in the dark comes out and talks to the lion telling him he needs to return to Caliban to save his legion AND HE CHOOSES NOT TO but not for the reason you'd think. He's actually going to find his brothers Gulliman and sanguinious to tell them to stop trying to make their own empire and get their butts back to terra. This was the real delay I beleive as to why the lion didn't make it to the battle with his forces. I agree that the lion had trait issues after luthera first almost betrayel but he was always loyal and I think still is to this day. But being the honored first could also lead to why they don't want people to know the full truth and it is crazy there are layers within layers to knowing the truth behind the fallen. And indeed cypher how and why did the lions most loyal body guard someone who actually saved his life countless times during the assault on caliban turn against his "brothers"?

I think the dark angels would avoid being destroyed if it came out now but they'd definatly be censored.

I mean, at the very least the dark angels have omited to inform the relevent authorities about the existance of a potential threat to the IoM.

I suspect the dark angels would be dismayed at how much the inqusition actually knows. the Grey Knights used some info related to it to basicly blackmail the dark angels to render aid at Pandorax, and I suspect the Inqusition knows far more then the Grey Knights do.

BrianDavion wrote:


I think the dark angels would avoid being destroyed if it came out now but they'd definatly be censored.

I mean, at the very least the dark angels have omited to inform the relevent authorities about the existance of a potential threat to the IoM.

I suspect the dark angels would be dismayed at how much the inqusition actually knows. the Grey Knights used some info related to it to basicly blackmail the dark angels to render aid at Pandorax, and I suspect the Inqusition knows far more then the Grey Knights do.

Entirely possible that they do indeed know more. I think in my mind that's one of the reasons I like that the DA kept acting on a more Legion strength oriented communications line with all their successor chapters. Even if the Inquisition or Grey Knights or anyone else for that matter really wanted to take them to task over it, they wouldn't be simply starting something with the DA, they'd in reality being picking a fight with the remnants of the First Legion. In the end, the inquisition probably just decided to let sleeping Lions lie. See what I did thar?

Man, what a story arc that would be though. *shivers* Damn. They'll need a good rules update before I play through that narrative though.