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Wraiths have no CCW mentioned in their profile, therefore when naked, they count as having one close combat weapon.

The wording in the rulebook says "If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon".

If you purchase Whip coils, which have the Melee type, and since in the Wraith entry it doesn't say "replace ccw with whip coils", does that mean that the model counts as having 2 CCW for the purposes of having an extra attack, or is it considered that the whip coils replace the imaginary ccw?

Same goes for the pistol. Since it's a pistol, does it count as CCW + pistol = extra attack, or does it replace the imaginary ccw?

Thx.

If there isn't one stated in the wargear originally, then when striking, they count as having one. If you purchase a weapon, it uses that Weapon. So no, Wraiths can't dual wield.

 krodarklorr wrote:
If there isn't one stated in the wargear originally, then when striking, they count as having one. If you purchase a weapon, it uses that Weapon. So no, Wraiths can't dual wield.

I see. Is there any source for this? Not doubting you, would just like to check.

 Mavlun wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
If there isn't one stated in the wargear originally, then when striking, they count as having one. If you purchase a weapon, it uses that Weapon. So no, Wraiths can't dual wield.

I see. Is there any source for this? Not doubting you, would just like to check.

You cited it. If they don't have a CCW, they use the default one.
A Wraith with Whip Coils has a CCW and therefore doesn't use the default one.

 Mavlun wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
If there isn't one stated in the wargear originally, then when striking, they count as having one. If you purchase a weapon, it uses that Weapon. So no, Wraiths can't dual wield.

I see. Is there any source for this? Not doubting you, would just like to check.

I don't have my rulebook on me, as I'm at work. But I remember there was huge debate about models (Praetorians with Rods) being treated as having CC weapons if they have no other one. I'll double check when I get my rulebook.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
If there isn't one stated in the wargear originally, then when striking, they count as having one. If you purchase a weapon, it uses that Weapon. So no, Wraiths can't dual wield.

I see. Is there any source for this? Not doubting you, would just like to check.

I don't have my rulebook on me, as I'm at work. But I remember there was huge debate about models (Praetorians with Rods) being treated as having CC weapons if they have no other one. I'll double check when I get my rulebook.

Cool, thanks a bunch. Ah, the debate about the ranged/melee profiles and that rule about use one or the other. Yeah, fun times.

All models are treated as having a CCW if one isn't listed in their profile. If you have a whipcoil, you have a CCW, therefore you do not use the CCW given to those without weapons listed.

A simpler answer might be are whip coils pistols?

No. Then no extra attack. They are coils that tangle your opponent up and give you swift strike.

Lungpickle wrote:
A simpler answer might be are whip coils pistols?

No. Then no extra attack. They are coils that tangle your opponent up and give you swift strike.

Whip Coils being pistols or not has no bearing on whether the unit would gain an extra attack from having 2 CCWs.

The actual rule is...

"If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon."

So, as soon as you give the model a melee weapon, it no longer fulfills the requirement to get a CCW. In other words, giving a model a melee weapon creates a scenario where the model IS specifically stated as have a weapon with the Melee type. The special rule above ceases to have effect and the model is no longer treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

 Kriswall wrote:
The actual rule is...

"If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon."

So, as soon as you give the model a melee weapon, it no longer fulfills the requirement to get a CCW. In other words, giving a model a melee weapon creates a scenario where the model IS specifically stated as have a weapon with the Melee type. The special rule above ceases to have effect and the model is no longer treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

But then, ironically, is now treated as having a single close combat weapon (because you gave him one).

Mavlun wrote:Wraiths have no CCW mentioned in their profile, therefore when naked, they count as having one close combat weapon.

The wording in the rulebook says "If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon".

You literally quoted it.
If the whipcoils are a melee weapon, then they won't have an "invisible" CCW.
Otherwise, you've given them this "invisible" CCW when they have a melee weapon and/or pistol, therefore breaking the rules.

 NightHowler wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The actual rule is...

"If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon."

So, as soon as you give the model a melee weapon, it no longer fulfills the requirement to get a CCW. In other words, giving a model a melee weapon creates a scenario where the model IS specifically stated as have a weapon with the Melee type. The special rule above ceases to have effect and the model is no longer treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

But then, ironically, is now treated as having a single close combat weapon (because you gave him one).

If you give them Whip Coils, they have Whip Coils. They most certainly are no longer treated as having a CCW. Whip Coils are NOT the same thing as a CCW. Whip Coils are basically CCWs with Swiftstrike.

So then if you get the Pistol though, the rule wouldn't be invoked, as a Pistol does not have the Melee type, but counts as a close combat weapon, so if you get the Pistol, you get the extra attack.

 Mavlun wrote:
So then if you get the Pistol though, the rule wouldn't be invoked, as a Pistol does not have the Melee type, but counts as a close combat weapon, so if you get the Pistol, you get the extra attack.

You can spend 2 points per model to give CSMs a close combat weapon. They are stock armed with a Bolter and a bolt pistol. Are they dual wielding already then?

 Mavlun wrote:
So then if you get the Pistol though, the rule wouldn't be invoked, as a Pistol does not have the Melee type, but counts as a close combat weapon, so if you get the Pistol, you get the extra attack.

Since a Pistol counts as a close combat weapon and uses the profile give in the rulebook (this profile does have the 'Melee' type) you would not benefit from the 'No Specified Melee Weapon' rule if all you have is a Pistol weapon.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
So then if you get the Pistol though, the rule wouldn't be invoked, as a Pistol does not have the Melee type, but counts as a close combat weapon, so if you get the Pistol, you get the extra attack.

Since a Pistol counts as a close combat weapon and uses the profile give in the rulebook (this profile does have the 'Melee' type) you would not benefit from the 'No Specified Melee Weapon' rule if all you have is a Pistol weapon.

The rulebook rule states "If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon."

Neither the Particle caster (specific case for this discussion), nor the Bolt Pistol in the example in the rulebook on pg. 42 have the Melee type, so as far as I see you still get the CCW, and together with the pistol, the +1 attack.

Am I missing something?

And when used in close combat, a Pistol weapon uses the profile given in the book which does have the Melee type. So if you have a Pistol, you do not benefit from the 'No Specified Melee Weapon' rule.

 Ghaz wrote:
And when used in close combat, a Pistol weapon uses the profile given in the book which does have the Melee type. So if you have a Pistol, you do not benefit from the 'No Specified Melee Weapon' rule.

Which profile that has the melee type? I can't see it anywhere...

FFS

CSM have bolt pistol + bolter. You pay 2pts to get a pointy stick which then gives you +1 attack since you have a ccw (pointy stick) and pistol (bolt pistol)

For wraiths - are whipcoils weapons or equipment?
If they are equipment it doesn't matter you get a CCW for 'free'
If they are melee weapons then they are CCWs since they are not listed as anything special (IE specialist) so if you bought a pistol then you'd also get +1 attack.

 Mavlun wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And when used in close combat, a Pistol weapon uses the profile given in the book which does have the Melee type. So if you have a Pistol, you do not benefit from the 'No Specified Melee Weapon' rule.

Which profile that has the melee type? I can't see it anywhere...

Again, from 'Pistols as Close Combat Weapons' in the main rulebook in the 'Weapons' section:

A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol's shooting profile are ignored.

Now tell us what "... the profile given above..." has under 'Type'?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And when used in close combat, a Pistol weapon uses the profile given in the book which does have the Melee type. So if you have a Pistol, you do not benefit from the 'No Specified Melee Weapon' rule.

Which profile that has the melee type? I can't see it anywhere...

Again, from 'Pistols as Close Combat Weapons' in the main rulebook in the 'Weapons' section:

A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol's shooting profile are ignored.

Now tell us what "... the profile given above..." has under 'Type'?

Wow, I am blind as a bat, somehow managed to totally miss that passage. Thanks buddy.