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No, the Shadow Crusade was designed to knock the Ultramarines out of the game and keep them from moving towards Terra and help out there.

 BrookM wrote:
No, the Shadow Crusade was designed to knock the Ultramarines out of the game and keep them from moving towards Terra and help out there.

So AL v UM?

I'll wait then.

migooo wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
No, the Shadow Crusade was designed to knock the Ultramarines out of the game and keep them from moving towards Terra and help out there.

So AL v UM?

I'll wait then.

No, Word Bearers and World Eaters vs Ultramarines is the Shadow Crusade.

I think FFG's game-release pace is break-neck right now, so I wouldn't want them to touch BFG just yet. They're starting to just toss out reskinned versions of other games (someone mentioned Conquest was like Bloodbowl Manager of old), Relic 40k is literally the same as normal Relic... etc. If you look at the number of game systems released in the last year to two years, it's ridiculous. I don't know how much more support they can keep up for all of them. Something's going to give eventually. I mean, Armada basically cannibalized their sales from X-Wing.

FFGs licence with GW stipulates no miniatures games. It would be sort of pointless to undermine your own business for a few quid.

 notprop wrote:
FFGs licence with GW stipulates no miniatures games. It would be sort of pointless to undermine your own business for a few quid.

Or they could have just stipulated that they would have to supply the minis.

 Nicorex wrote:
Here is a pic of the whole thing....
...
So far the only thing that I like about it is the reaper chainsword.

Thanks, finally someone with a similar taste.
Yes it is coherent to all previous Chaos designs, but I am so tired of more skulls, more bestial looks etc. etc. etc.

I love the Horus Heresy story and desgns, but the more "Chaosish" it gets the less I like the designs.

But on the other hand if it wasnt visably differant from loyalist forces you'd complain. So where does the balence lie?

 e.earnshaw wrote:
But on the other hand if it wasnt visably differant from loyalist forces you'd complain. So where does the balence lie?

No where. People will complain if its got spikes and faces for chaos, except that spikes is the chaos aesthetic. Both fluff and models. Chaos mutates the spikes into flesh and armour, and they put trophy racks on their vehicles. Hence, chaos must be spikey, but people complain.

If you have no spikes they will just be loyalists and people will complain that it doesn't follow Chaos aesthetic and it looks too loyalist. They will complain that they now have to model their own corruption and how GW forces extra greenstuff sales, but they'll just buy other brands because feth GW. So Chaos cannot be just spikey, but people will complain.


Hence, people will complain regardless of what GW do because people complain and opinions differ.

 Deadshot wrote:


People will complain if its got spikes and faces for chaos, except that spikes is the chaos aesthetic. Both fluff and models. Chaos mutates the spikes into flesh and armour, and they put trophy racks on their vehicles. Hence, chaos must be spikey, but people complain.

Actually the rather tired spikey skully melodramatic looks is pretty recent in some respects. Some of the earliest chaos pieces were more based on a biomechanical horror look rather than the heads on spikes, death metal band look they've got going on these days. For me, the Gal Vorbak and Mhara Gal represents the traditional Chaos look. No spikes, no skulls, instead you have a horrifying bio-mechanical daemon engine:

I am sorry if anyone took my comments as complaints. They were more of a personal observation and not railing against the forces of GW/FW darkness.
I am not a fan of the open wound / split apart Chaos look they are using these days.
I actually do not mind the old school skull and spike Chaos (since that's what I started with).
Also since they (GW/FW) seem to have been moving away from "Just add spikes to make it chaosy" attitude, why did they just make chaos armor add on and not at least one faction specific weapon? Though it may still be in the works. We will just have to wait and see.
I hope we get the rules for the legged version of the Lord of Skulls soon.

 Deadshot wrote:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
But on the other hand if it wasnt visably differant from loyalist forces you'd complain. So where does the balence lie?

No where. People will complain if its got spikes and faces for chaos, except that spikes is the chaos aesthetic. Both fluff and models. Chaos mutates the spikes into flesh and armour, and they put trophy racks on their vehicles. Hence, chaos must be spikey, but people complain.

If you have no spikes they will just be loyalists and people will complain that it doesn't follow Chaos aesthetic and it looks too loyalist. They will complain that they now have to model their own corruption and how GW forces extra greenstuff sales, but they'll just buy other brands because feth GW. So Chaos cannot be just spikey, but people will complain.


Hence, people will complain regardless of what GW do because people complain and opinions differ.

Chaos doesn't have to be spikes, the only reason is lack of vision and imagination on behalf of the studio.

Heck, you could do spikes in a more creative fashion than they are currently done. I don't think people necessary object to spikes, it's just the rather by the numbers application that sometimes grates. I mean, Fw are generally less guilty than GW proper (where chaos vehicles are literally the imperial version with spikes glued on) but there are four distinct aesthetics within the Chaos faction, not to mention the fluff justifies literally anything and yet we get the same old, same old every time.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
But on the other hand if it wasnt visably differant from loyalist forces you'd complain. So where does the balence lie?

No where. People will complain if its got spikes and faces for chaos, except that spikes is the chaos aesthetic. Both fluff and models. Chaos mutates the spikes into flesh and armour, and they put trophy racks on their vehicles. Hence, chaos must be spikey, but people complain.

If you have no spikes they will just be loyalists and people will complain that it doesn't follow Chaos aesthetic and it looks too loyalist. They will complain that they now have to model their own corruption and how GW forces extra greenstuff sales, but they'll just buy other brands because feth GW. So Chaos cannot be just spikey, but people will complain.


Hence, people will complain regardless of what GW do because people complain and opinions differ.

Chaos doesn't have to be spikes, the only reason is lack of vision and imagination on behalf of the studio.

Heck, you could do spikes in a more creative fashion than they are currently done. I don't think people necessary object to spikes, it's just the rather by the numbers application that sometimes grates. I mean, Fw are generally less guilty than GW proper (where chaos vehicles are literally the imperial version with spikes glued on) but there are four distinct aesthetics within the Chaos faction, not to mention the fluff justifies literally anything and yet we get the same old, same old every time.

Amen!

I think the basic chaos vehicle kits that are simply the addition of spikes are the worst thing for the overall aesthetic of Chaos Marines and the height of laziness. GW justifies it as renegade marines going to chaos, but most players would rather see an aesthetic that says they're from another time and have been twisted by exposure to the warp. Maybe in the era of 2nd and 3rd edition it was justified to make short-cuts, but now a days several of the other loyalist chapters have add-on bits for their tanks that go further than these ours do. Our tanks still drive around with imperial eagles emblazon on our track links. Even just with the arrow motif this guy has done more to give Chaos Marine vehicles the army's aesthetic: http://thedarkworks.bigcartel.com/

I'm glad they've gotten back to the biomechanical horror aesthetic. Everything from the Dark Vengence chaos marines and Hellbrute to the daemon engines and possessed speak to the Rogue Trader era established aesthetic. Whether its Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, or Chaos Undivided the thing that distinguishes them most from loyalist marines is texture. For the longest time Nurgle had the most character and while its arguable that their popularity has been due to their strong rules but many nurgle players have been drawn by that strong aesthetic; despite being "chaos" they're distinguished by a texture different than the rest. In the art it is ultimately that texture that sets them apart... Khorne shows alot of throbbing muscles and hard edged metal, Slaanesh shows alot stretched flesh and faces, Tzeentch has feathers and globby amorphousness... I think FW has done an excellent job of finding an Undivided aesthetic that ties all those textures together; the metal skin of a vehicle splitting like stitches ripping open gives something to any of the four god worshipping armies to play off of while giving undivided that tangible uncertainty of not knowing what its going to become. I think its perfect.

IDK, be careful what you wish for, as the saying goes. I'd prefer lazy spikes to more dinobots.

edit: Though yes, the DV releases (DV, raptors, hellbrute) were a great leap forward, even if a bit overwrought.

Though it will take time i think the fw astetic should be moved on to 40k chaos.... but in the meen time i suggest you do what i do horus heresy list double up as chaos.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
IDK, be careful what you wish for, as the saying goes. I'd prefer lazy spikes to more dinobots.

edit: Though yes, the DV releases (DV, raptors, hellbrute) were a great leap forward, even if a bit overwrought.

I like the Forgefiend. I don't consider it the best model, but its more "chaos" than the Chaos Landraider or the chaos rhino and that my point. In general I'm advocating GW doing more to improve those kits as true chaos versions of the vehicles than I'm advocating more daemon engines like the forgefiend. I think while people would have preferred daemon engines more in the vein of the Defiler or FW's Decimator, I thought it a great idea to expand on the biomechanoid aesthetic already present on the bloodcrusher.

Forgefiend needs a better head. Helldrake needs a tail and hindquarters of some sort.

I wish FW would do more with Chaos, and I certainly hope by the end of the Heresy we'll see more daemon engines.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Though it will take time i think the fw astetic should be moved on to 40k chaos.... but in the meen time i suggest you do what i do horus heresy list double up as chaos.

Except that HH lists aren't designed to be played with stock 40k games and armies...

 Enigwolf wrote:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Though it will take time i think the fw astetic should be moved on to 40k chaos.... but in the meen time i suggest you do what i do horus heresy list double up as chaos.

Except that HH lists aren't designed to be played with stock 40k games and armies...

HH lists are indeed designed to be played with stock 40k games minus Lords of war units:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/Betrayal_FAQ_Errata_v.2.pdf

Go to page five. Despite being slightly weaker than most 40k lists, Horus Heresy lists are designed to be compatible with 40K armies.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Though it will take time i think the fw astetic should be moved on to 40k chaos.... but in the meen time i suggest you do what i do horus heresy list double up as chaos.

Except that HH lists aren't designed to be played with stock 40k games and armies...

HH lists are indeed designed to be played with stock 40k games minus Lords of war units:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/Betrayal_FAQ_Errata_v.2.pdf

Go to page five. Despite being slightly weaker than most 40k lists, Horus Heresy lists are designed to be compatible with 40K armies.

Interesting, this is new to me. The original books, I believe, had a note that the HH lists were OP compared to 40k armies and not suggested for match-ups.

To be honest HH lists can struggle against some armies at lower points games. It's really only around 2,000pts and above where they start to dominate a bit with access to some nasty units. I use my World Eaters more often in standard 40k games now.

I hope we get a new release tomorrow. Guilliman preferably.

When it comes to playing 40k armies against 30k armies it's largely a case that they're balanced differently. Early on FWs designers were asked this question and their insistence was that 30k was balanced towards higher point games than 40k; 2000-2500pts being what's a "normal" game. 40k however is intended for games in the 1500-2000pts range. Theoretically the closer to that point where both game's point values align the more things will seem balanced. That's not to say you can't play bigger or smaller games just that there is a stronger opportunity for one player to take advantage of the imbalance. Obviously different armies will be impacted to different degrees so that can further impact fairness.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
IDK, be careful what you wish for, as the saying goes. I'd prefer lazy spikes to more dinobots.

edit: Though yes, the DV releases (DV, raptors, hellbrute) were a great leap forward, even if a bit overwrought.

I like the Forgefiend. I don't consider it the best model, but its more "chaos" than the Chaos Landraider or the chaos rhino and that my point. In general I'm advocating GW doing more to improve those kits as true chaos versions of the vehicles than I'm advocating more daemon engines like the forgefiend. I think while people would have preferred daemon engines more in the vein of the Defiler or FW's Decimator, I thought it a great idea to expand on the biomechanoid aesthetic already present on the bloodcrusher.

Forgefiend needs a better head. Helldrake needs a tail and hindquarters of some sort.

I wish FW would do more with Chaos, and I certainly hope by the end of the Heresy we'll see more daemon engines.

I love the dinobots.

There, I said it.

For me, the issue is not the model itself, but the jarring juxtaposition of aesthetics. They just don't sit well alongside vehicles with the ordinary Imperial Aesthetic™ + Spikes™

Personally, I'm tackling that (or plan to, at least) by converting the boxy imperial vehicles with more organic parts than just the standard issue Spikes™. I mean, I'm doing Emperor's Children, so, you, know, chains, but Spikes™ are going to be very lightly used (at least, metallic ones.)

I spent a pleasant couple of hours yesterday browsing a bits seller on eBay picking up all sorts of stuff like the horns from the Warshrine, bits from a High Elf dragon and all sorts of more organic looking bits to chaosify the bawxes.

I'm modelling them post-Terra, so chaosy, but not totally corrupt yet, and so practicing a less is more attitude. Something that is a lot of fun, and probably a concept GW and (to a lesser extent) FW could benefit from employing more often.

 Azreal13 wrote:

I love the dinobots.

There, I said it.

For me, the issue is not the model itself, but the jarring juxtaposition of aesthetics. They just don't sit well alongside vehicles with the ordinary Imperial Aesthetic™ + Spikes™

Personally, I'm tackling that (or plan to, at least) by converting the boxy imperial vehicles with more organic parts than just the standard issue Spikes™. I mean, I'm doing Emperor's Children, so, you, know, chains, but Spikes™ are going to be very lightly used (at least, metallic ones.)
....

I'm not saying GW should do it, but when you look at the pre-heresy vehicles with more round features and elements in different places those lend themselves better to look at home with these daemon engines.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

I love the dinobots.

There, I said it.

For me, the issue is not the model itself, but the jarring juxtaposition of aesthetics. They just don't sit well alongside vehicles with the ordinary Imperial Aesthetic™ + Spikes™

Personally, I'm tackling that (or plan to, at least) by converting the boxy imperial vehicles with more organic parts than just the standard issue Spikes™. I mean, I'm doing Emperor's Children, so, you, know, chains, but Spikes™ are going to be very lightly used (at least, metallic ones.)
....

I'm not saying GW should do it, but when you look at the pre-heresy vehicles with more round features and elements in different places those lend themselves better to look at home with these daemon engines.

Actually, the Chaos Predator kit is rather a mess- old and made up of a rhino hull, 2 small and barren turret and sponson sprues, and 1 or 2 chaos spikes sprues. That would be an idea place for a new kit- replace all those small sprues with a single large one with a dome turret with chaos styled autocannon and TLLC, and an ectoplasma cannon, then sponsons with Chaos Heavy Bolters, Las cannons, and maybe reaper autocannons. Then a new glacis plate and some bolt on panels that fit in the front and back spots like the SM command tanks have. 1 sprue, 1 kit, a dome turret to make it stand out as Chaos, and a new weapon option to sell kits to older players.

That'd certainly worthwhile in my book. It's always been frustrating to me that these loyalist vehicles with extra sprues are what we're still stuck with. It's a dated paradigm leftover from an era where GW had far scarcer resources. Consider the Imperial Guard vehicle kits that were redone a couple years back... GW didn't shy away from the part redundancy between similar kits; they moved away from the old format of generic chimera sprues being supplemented by sprues that added to them... We got complete Chimera, Hellhound, and Manticore kits that stand on their own. If such chassis redundancy can stand having as many distinct kits within a single faction, surely chaos vehicles which now exists across multiple books could stand to have something similar.

Sigismund!




http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/SIGISMUND.html

nice, but why is he £45 when all the other (non-primarch) marine characters are only £31...??

Yeah I know. His base is bigger but not £14 bigger.

He does look gorgeous however.

I never knew Sigismund was a Terran.