DE vs Grey Knights

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**KingCorpus**

Doing a 2k point game, and more than likely going to be facing 2 Dreadknights + Draigo with paladins. Those are the only two threats.

How can I deal with dreadknights effectively? What's the best route? Long range dark lances from scourges? Ravagers with dark lances? Or do I just light them up with my heavy splinter cannons?

Same question to the paladins and draigo. I think my fast movement + positioning and using dark lances to insta kill the paladins until Draigo is alone then light him up with poison shots.

**NauticalKendall**

Scourges with blasters, various other mass splinter canon fire(VENOMS), don't dare put dark lances on scourges, thats silly. If you want long range S8ap2, throw them onto Blasterborn and sit manx distance away in a venom. As for everything, just spam poison.

Something I have wanted to try, check out the Crucible thing that Haemy's can take, deep stoke a few of those boys in the thick of grey knight squads and watch your opponent cry.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
fast movement + blasters will work much better than DL's simply because you can comfortably move and shoot. Disintigrators wouldn't be an awful idea if you're not expecting many vehicles.

**Jimsolo**

Problem Kendall, is that the crucible only does one wound per squad, not per model. The crucible is essentially worthless.

You've got mobility on him, King. Use Venoms and Reavers and keep out of his charge range. (Preferably torrent range too, lol)

A few Allied Eldar Jetbikers wouldn't go amiss, of course. Not only would a Farseer commanding them give you a tiny edge in the Psychic Phase, but the Bladestorm would give you a little AP 2 to throw around.

Disintegrators might not be a horrible route either, for that matter. But I think warrior gunboats, Reavers, and venims are probably going to do the lions share of the heavy lifting here.

**siege2142**

When I'm playing GK vs DE, I'm always more afraid of their massed poison shots than the ap2. I can roll 4+'s all day (it seems) on one or two dice, but give me a handful of dice and say "just don't roll ones" and I'll roll four of them.

**Martel732**

Statistically, the AP 2 weapons are more dangerous to the Dreadknights.

**greyknight12**

Kill the dreadknights with AP2, kill everything else with poison, ignore the paladins. They don't have splitfire so they can only destroy one thing a turn unless you let them get a multicharge off. Then just fly around and claim objectives; outside of dreadknights, interceptors, and GOI there's almost no mobility in the GK codex.

**DaKKaLAnce**

From personal experience...Venoms have always been the answer to high armoured MC. The amount of shots always overwhelms most 2+ models/units I come across.

**Martel732**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
From personal experience...Venoms have always been the answer to high armoured MC. The amount of shots always overwhelms most 2+ models/units I come across.

I can almost guarantee you will lose that race against a Riptide w/FNP.

**DaKKaLAnce**

Martel732 wrote:
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
From personal experience...Venoms have always been the answer to high armoured MC. The amount of shots always overwhelms most 2+ models/units I come across.

I can almost guarantee you will lose that race against a Riptide w/FNP.

Ive never had issues with it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Needless to say, I would use dark lances on the riptide more that venoms.

**obsidiankatana**

iirc, Riptides aren't fearless. Charge it with a succubus carrying an archite glaive / incubi and you'll probably run it down.

**HUEY350**

2 units of deepstriking blaster born always does the trick for me. you should use the scalpel squadron formation and do a null deployment. that is starting to be my favorite way of fielding and playing my DE. I feel DE have the upper hand in this match up.

**vipoid**

I'd suggest Ravagers with Dark Lances, and any squads of 5 Warriors with a blaster in a venom. Could also try some units of 3 Reavers with a blaster and cluster caltrops. I'd field CADs (probably multiple CADs), since Objective Secured could really help you.

Aim for the DKs first (venoms and dark lances should take them down reasonably quickly). They can be a pain, but once they're dead the GK player is either moving 6" per turn, or teleporting (which is risky and prevents him from charging).

Basically, your best bet is to spread out as much as possible, since he lacks the numbers to kill many of your units at once. Make him work to even catch you, and make sure his paladins can't multi-charge you.

After the DKs are dead, aim for any other units he has. With regard to Draigo and the Paladins... I'd be tempted to ignore them. Obviously fire at them if you've no better targets, but I wouldn't put too much effort into trying to wipe out the squad. With the number of models you can field in a 2000pt game (and multiple CADs), they really shouldn't be able to do any significant damage to your army.

If you're doing any kind of objectives game, play to the mission. You will be better at it than him.

Oh, and remember that flamers have to cover as much of their target vehicle's hull as possible - so his DKs should struggle to hit more than one of your vehicles - even if they're relatively tightly packed. Probably better to avoid packing them together in the first place, but I feel I should mention it since quite a few people seem unaware of this rule,

**KingCorpus**

Loving the info guys, but there is one thing,

What if I roll and get purge the alien? How do I eliminate his paladins? Spray and pray? I think that was one suggestion hahah

Is it worth it to get some sort of CC unit in there, like Succ + Wyches, or reavers + The CLuster caltrops?

**jeffersonian000**

Weight of fire kills TDA, regardless of wounds. Just dump all of your range attacks into them one unit at a time until they are dead.

SJ

**Martel732**

TDA's firepower/pt is so poor that they should lose most shootouts.

**vipoid**

KingCorpus wrote:
Loving the info guys, but there is one thing,

What if I roll and get purge the alien? How do I eliminate his paladins? Spray and pray? I think that was one suggestion hahah

Well, my advice remains mainly the same - kill his other units first, then turn your attention to the paladins. The fewer units he has, the fewer units of yours he can kill each turn.

Once his other units are dead, fire everything at the paladins - weight of fire should get them in the end. Use your manoeuvrability to get your dark lances and blasters around them (so he can't protect them with Draigo). If you have the opportunity to kill Apothecary, take it - it will make your life much easier. Anyway, I'd use lances/blasters to kill most or all of the Paladins, then torrent Draigo (and any survivors) with poison fire.

KingCorpus wrote:

Is it worth it to get some sort of CC unit in there, like Succ + Wyches, or reavers + The CLuster caltrops?

No! Nonononono.

More seriously, we have literally nothing that can outfight paladins, let alone Draigo. Really, combat is exactly where that unit wants to be - and so exactly what we should strive to avoid. Plus, as long as one of your units is in combat with it, you can't fire any of your dark lances, blasters or mountain of poison-shooting at them. And, blasters and dark lances are going to be much better at killing paladins than any of our melee units.

If the unit is down to its last two wounds, then you could maybe try sending in 2+ of units of 3 Reavers with Cluster Caltrops. But, if they're any stronger than that, you're just going to be feeding them kill points.

**Xenomancers**

I will say this is not a match up you should win. Torrent flamers and cleansing flame are basically GG for DE. I really wouldn't put anything in transports that isn't deep striking. Your best bet for vicitory is taking a lot of DS venoms full of blaster born. To kill dread knights quickly. They still might survive that onslaught though. Luckily hes only bringing 2 - I always bring 3. He's also hindering himself with paladins too waste of points - blasters 1 shot them and you are very mobile.

**jeffersonian000**

As a GK player, I like going against DE because they die so easily to S6 AP4 Flamers, and S7 AP4 assault cannon. Yet, I know they outnumber me, so my tactic is to cripple as many of them as I can, because 2-3 DE models per unit have way less firepower than full DE units, and are fodder for turn 2 tabling.

A smart DE player knows to use their range and movement advantages to midigate my alpha and beta punch.

SJ

**Martel732**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
As a GK player, I like going against DE because they die so easily to S6 AP4 Flamers, and S7 AP4 assault cannon. Yet, I know they outnumber me, so my tactic is to cripple as many of them as I can, because 2-3 DE models per unit have way less firepower than full DE units, and are fodder for turn 2 tabling.

A smart DE player knows to use their range and movement advantages to midigate my alpha and beta punch.

SJ

I play BA against GK the exact same way. I spend a lot of time running away. BA are actually a lot like power armor DE.

**Xenomancers**

Martel732 wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
As a GK player, I like going against DE because they die so easily to S6 AP4 Flamers, and S7 AP4 assault cannon. Yet, I know they outnumber me, so my tactic is to cripple as many of them as I can, because 2-3 DE models per unit have way less firepower than full DE units, and are fodder for turn 2 tabling.

A smart DE player knows to use their range and movement advantages to midigate my alpha and beta punch.

SJ

I play BA against GK the exact same way. I spend a lot of time running away. BA are actually a lot like power armor DE.

Have you no honor!?! Fight like a marine!

**Martel732**

No man, I frequently call my BA the coward angels. They back up and back up until the opponent is crippled and then I assault them. That's against opponents who have crap dakka, that is. It's easy to claim objectives when everything's dead and I have fast engines. Obviously, against someone like Eldar, I have to do the reverse and suicidally charge my opponent in a vain attempt to accomplish something.

**vipoid**

Xenomancers wrote:
I will say this is not a match up you should win. Torrent flamers and cleansing flame are basically GG for DE.

I don't know about that. They can be horrendous, but they're not insurmountable. I mean, he only has 2 Torrent Flamers, and Cleansing Flame either requires a random roll on the psychic table, or unit(s) of Purifiers - which can probably be avoided for most of the game.

Xenomancers wrote:
I really wouldn't put anything in transports that isn't deep striking.

Honestly, I don't like this idea. Deep Striking is risky, and also forces you to put yourself in the open. I mean, those DKs are going to be a pain as long as they're alive - so I'd rather focus on shielding my army from the less mobile elements of the GK army. Also, DE venoms and Ravagers have a significant range advantage over GKs, and it seems a shame to squander it.

Xenomancers wrote:
Your best bet for vicitory is taking a lot of DS venoms full of blaster born.

I disagree - Blasterborn are too expensive and too much of a liability. One Torrent Flamer is basically 120pts down the drain (not even including their transport). Warrior squads don't pack as much punch, but at least if one dies it's only 45pts. Also, with their 4++ saves (after Sanctuary), Blasters aren't exactly ideal against DKs to begin with. I'd rather just torrent them down with Venoms (can always turn the Ravagers on them, if needs be).

Xenomancers wrote:
Luckily hes only bringing 2 - I always bring 3. He's also hindering himself with paladins too waste of points - blasters 1 shot them and you are very mobile.

On this, at least, we agree.

2 DKs at 2000pts isn't too bad, and paladins are the sort of unit that just makes my DE shrug. "Ok, you're really terrifying in combat...now have fun getting there."

**jeffersonian000**

Honestly, I don't like this idea. Deep Striking is risky, and also forces you to put yourself in the open. I mean, those DKs are going to be a pain as long as they're alive - so I'd rather focus on shielding my army from the less mobile elements of the GK army. Also, DE venoms and Ravagers have a significant range advantage over GKs, and it seems a shame to squander it.

GK are designed to Deep Strike, and use it well as an unwreckable transport to get right where they need to be on turn 1. The Mishap table is very forgivable, and rarely results in a lost unit, while 2+ armor saves allows our Troops to Deep Strike into cover with little worry.

That said, I actually rarely reserve these days, beyond the occasional 5man GKT combat squad. For me, GK are best played via 12" jumps, 30" Shunts and unlimited range Gates for bullying and boad control. Being able to arrive within template range of baddies that need frying is the epitome of GK strategy.

SJ

**vipoid**

I was talking about deep striking with DE.

Deep Striking with GKs is a very different matter.

**jeffersonian000**

vipoid wrote:
I was talking about deep striking with DE.

Deep Striking with GKs is a very different matter.

You have Web Portals, and same chance to mishap. Not sure why you wouldn't consider a tool in your tool box that can be useful once n a while.

SJ

**KiloFiX**

Dreadknights?

But we have Poison!

Forget the AP2. Just need to flood him with Splinter shots and he will fail those saves. Same for the GKTDA.

**vipoid**

jeffersonian000 wrote:

You have Web Portals, and same chance to mishap. Not sure why you wouldn't consider a tool in your tool box that can be useful once n a while.

SJ

WWPs are far from free, and if we're using Venoms then we don't have enough room to even add a WWP-character to our squads.

It's not about the chance to mishap, per se, it's about where you typically need to deploy to avoid mishaps - i.e. in the open.

I just think that a mobile, glass-hammer army should be using terrain as much as possible to screen itself from parts of the enemy army. Deep striking all but forces you to go against that by requiring you to deploy in the open.

**jeffersonian000**

Or ... it lets you drop a unit anywhere on the table after alpha strikes have gone off, allowing you to secure a lone objective or assassinate a hiding high value target. No one expects DE to DS. Thinking outside of the box lets you look at your tools in a new light.

SJ

**KingCorpus**

I played him, and I drowned everything in poison. The Dreadknights had to roll so many saves that they couldn't make all of them, not only that my Talos Pain engine instant killed one.

Everything else just melted from the amount of vollies I hit him with.

**vipoid**

Nice.

What did your list look like in the end?