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They didn't have hit and run, it was an exarch power.

In practice i find stomp dangerous. So i see to it that what faces the titan has a chance to win or is expendable.
In the case of the imperial knight the explosion is worse though, because it automatically takes down the units that are good enough to take the imperial knight down.

I did not read anywhere that the Wraithknight explodes as well, so i am less worried.

One question though: i read about poison on 6+. Does poison only work on 6+ against Is a gargantuam creature?

That would mean that Dark Eldar have a problem here unless they pack as many heavy and special weapons (S8) as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The biggest problem of the wraithknight and wraithlord is that T8, so most basic weapons (S3 and S4) doe nothing.

But Necron and Poisoned weapons have a chance, that's better than nothing.
A C'Tan is a bit weak, or rather very weak, in comparison to a wraithknight though. But a C'Tan is not that good anyway, so no news there.

ORicK wrote:
In practice i find stomp dangerous. So i see to it that what faces the titan has a chance to win or is expendable.
In the case of the imperial knight the explosion is worse though, because it automatically takes down the units that are good enough to take the imperial knight down.

I did not read anywhere that the Wraithknight explodes as well, so i am less worried.

One question though: i read about poison on 6+. Does poison only work on 6+ against Is a gargantuam creature?

It's 6+ unless the strength is high enough to force a lower roll. So if you're lucky enough to have a S10 poison weapon versus T8, you still get 2+ (plus a re-roll if you're in melee). The only option I can think of for this is a Carnifex with Toxin Sacs.

@xttz: thanks!

So that means i that S8 weapons will be even more important and that poison does not solve monster problem anymore. Which is not a bad thing IMO, it had become a bit too easy against some monstrous creatures when playing Dark Eldar.

It also means that my love for Fire Dragons definately has it's use when facing Eldar.
I am above all an infantry player and 100% Aspect Warrior infantry now seems playable.
(so not a army version where you only see infantry on a table if an Eldar vehicle gets destroyed, te type of Eldar army i have seen way too many times... ;-)

IMO eldar should be Aspect Warriors anyway.
They are the soldiers. Guardians are (trained) civilians and Farseers and Warlocks are teachers and priests.
IMO it is utter nonsense that these are more frequent on tables than Aspect Warriors.

 xttz wrote:

ORicK wrote:
In practice i find stomp dangerous. So i see to it that what faces the titan has a chance to win or is expendable.
In the case of the imperial knight the explosion is worse though, because it automatically takes down the units that are good enough to take the imperial knight down.

I did not read anywhere that the Wraithknight explodes as well, so i am less worried.

One question though: i read about poison on 6+. Does poison only work on 6+ against Is a gargantuam creature?

It's 6+ unless the strength is high enough to force a lower roll. So if you're lucky enough to have a S10 poison weapon versus T8, you still get 2+ (plus a re-roll if you're in melee). The only option I can think of for this is a Carnifex with Toxin Sacs.

The downside here though?

The Carnifex is WS3 to the WS4 - has lower intiative and the Wraithknight is still S10 ignoring armour. Plus the fact the Carnifex will never realistically reach the Wraithknight, ever. It's base movement is faster and it's a Jump creature to boot. Footslogging 'fexes? There's a reason no one fields them and expects them to get into assault.

So are all the Aspect Warriors pretty viable now? That's definitely a good thing, it's about time.

ORicK wrote:
@xttz: thanks!

So that means i that S8 weapons will be even more important and that poison does not solve monster problem anymore. Which is not a bad thing IMO, it had become a bit too easy against some monstrous creatures when playing Dark Eldar.

It also means that my love for Fire Dragons definately has it's use when facing Eldar.
I am above all an infantry player and 100% Aspect Warrior infantry now seems playable.
(so not a army version where you only see infantry on a table if an Eldar vehicle gets destroyed, te type of Eldar army i have seen way too many times... ;-)

Poison does still have a role against GC's; remember that even with the 6+ they still could hurt a Wraithknight, which your standard lasgun or bolter won't. Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off. It's no longer the best solution, but massed poison is still viable. Don't forget that many S8+ weapons will lose a fair bit of effectiveness from the new FNP save, and short-range things like meltaguns will have to be within charge range to be of any use.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better. That way you're ignoring armour and FNP while dealing D3 wounds. Obviously that's not something every army will have effective access to, but if you do it's certainly worth a shot.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The Carnifex is WS3 to the WS4 - has lower intiative and the Wraithknight is still S10 ignoring armour. Plus the fact the Carnifex will never realistically reach the Wraithknight, ever. It's base movement is faster and it's a Jump creature to boot. Footslogging 'fexes? There's a reason no one fields them and expects them to get into assault.

I never advocated using melee Fexes to counter Wraithknights, it was simply the only example of a S10 poison weapon I could think of. Still, good on you for not missing out on the chance to make a condescending post!

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 xttz wrote:

ORicK wrote:
In practice i find stomp dangerous. So i see to it that what faces the titan has a chance to win or is expendable.
In the case of the imperial knight the explosion is worse though, because it automatically takes down the units that are good enough to take the imperial knight down.

I did not read anywhere that the Wraithknight explodes as well, so i am less worried.

One question though: i read about poison on 6+. Does poison only work on 6+ against Is a gargantuam creature?

It's 6+ unless the strength is high enough to force a lower roll. So if you're lucky enough to have a S10 poison weapon versus T8, you still get 2+ (plus a re-roll if you're in melee). The only option I can think of for this is a Carnifex with Toxin Sacs.

The downside here though?

The Carnifex is WS3 to the WS4 - has lower intiative and the Wraithknight is still S10 ignoring armour. Plus the fact the Carnifex will never realistically reach the Wraithknight, ever. It's base movement is faster and it's a Jump creature to boot. Footslogging 'fexes? There's a reason no one fields them and expects them to get into assault.

I don't think xttz was suggesting a Carnifex would be a good match up (especially not when you consider all the D Eldar are going to be throwing around), just simply an example of something with poison that is high enough strength that against a WK that the poison roll would be irrelevant because the Str is higher than the WK's T.

 warboss wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm sorry but in that picture all I can see is the Avatar holding a little piece of paper and trying to get it in focus
It just lines up so perfectly with the box in the background

"I knew I should've brought my glasses..."

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm sorry but in that picture all I can see is the Avatar holding a little piece of paper and trying to get it in focus
It just lines up so perfectly with the box in the background

"I knew I should've brought my glasses..."

Can't unsee

Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off.

It's possible, but not something I would rely on. You need 216 splinter or gauss shots to bring down a WK on average.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better.

You are right, but how many weapons fit this profile? You can probably count them on 1 hand.

Also strength is very important.

Nurgle DPs with a balesword used to be very dangerous to a wraithknight (instant death AP2), but now they will need a 6 to wound and will only do 2 wounds on average per hit.

xttz wrote:

ORicK wrote:
@xttz: thanks!

So that means i that S8 weapons will be even more important and that poison does not solve monster problem anymore. Which is not a bad thing IMO, it had become a bit too easy against some monstrous creatures when playing Dark Eldar.

It also means that my love for Fire Dragons definately has it's use when facing Eldar.
I am above all an infantry player and 100% Aspect Warrior infantry now seems playable.
(so not a army version where you only see infantry on a table if an Eldar vehicle gets destroyed, te type of Eldar army i have seen way too many times... ;-)

Poison does still have a role against GC's; remember that even with the 6+ they still could hurt a Wraithknight, which your standard lasgun or bolter won't. Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off. It's no longer the best solution, but massed poison is still viable. Don't forget that many S8+ weapons will lose a fair bit of effectiveness from the new FNP save, and short-range things like meltaguns will have to be within charge range to be of any use.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better. That way you're ignoring armour and FNP while dealing D3 wounds. Obviously that's not something every army will have effective access to, but if you do it's certainly worth a shot.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The Carnifex is WS3 to the WS4 - has lower intiative and the Wraithknight is still S10 ignoring armour. Plus the fact the Carnifex will never realistically reach the Wraithknight, ever. It's base movement is faster and it's a Jump creature to boot. Footslogging 'fexes? There's a reason no one fields them and expects them to get into assault.

I never advocated using melee Fexes to counter Wraithknights, it was simply the only example of a S10 poison weapon I could think of. Still, good on you for not missing out on the chance to make a condescending post!

As always the problem will not be the wraithknight it self but the rest of the eldar army if you choose to devote all your resources to get rid of the knight. Same thing that was happening a long time ago with wraithlords, opponent was so preoccupied dealing with them that the rest of the eldar army was opening him a new one. The added fact that the wraithknight is mobile and armed with D weaponry makes things even worse since it ranks even higher on the priority list of your opponent. Still its the rest of the army that will do the damage.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm sorry but in that picture all I can see is the Avatar holding a little piece of paper and trying to get it in focus
It just lines up so perfectly with the box in the background

"I knew I should've brought my glasses..."

"Let me read the instructions again... in order to activate the giant red robot turn on start switch AFTER installing batteries!"

As Capamaru writes: i would field a wraithknight just to get focus off my Aspect Warrior infantry army.

I love to field units or models whose most important role is getting the attention away from what i am actually planning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a great picture indeed, the Avatar with reading problems!

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off.

It's possible, but not something I would rely on. You need 216 splinter or gauss shots to bring down a WK on average.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better.

You are right, but how many weapons fit this profile? You can probably count them on 1 hand.

Also strength is very important.

Nurgle DPs with a balesword used to be very dangerous to a wraithknight (instant death AP2), but now they will need a 6 to wound and will only do 2 wounds on average per hit.

Nurgle DP with Iron Arm and Touch of Uncreation (Fleshbane)... 6 WS 9 AP2 Instant Death attacks wounding on 2's with re-rolls.
I think? Do you still get the re-roll from poison if it is 'negated' by GMC?

Trasvi wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off.

It's possible, but not something I would rely on. You need 216 splinter or gauss shots to bring down a WK on average.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better.

You are right, but how many weapons fit this profile? You can probably count them on 1 hand.

Also strength is very important.

Nurgle DPs with a balesword used to be very dangerous to a wraithknight (instant death AP2), but now they will need a 6 to wound and will only do 2 wounds on average per hit.

Nurgle DP with Iron Arm and Touch of Uncreation (Fleshbane)... 6 WS 9 AP2 Instant Death attacks wounding on 2's with re-rolls.
I think? Do you still get the re-roll from poison if it is 'negated' by GMC?

I believe you would get re-rolls, and with those powers the DP has a good chance of winning.

Fleshbane isn;t needed too badly. An iron arm DP wounds on 3+ and gets to re-roll.

Still, its not as reliable as it used to be.
.

 ImAGeek wrote:
So are all the Aspect Warriors pretty viable now? That's definitely a good thing, it's about time.

Everything has a buff and/or a points reduction so its likely yes - the Aspects all seem to have significant boosts to at least make them worth taking or indeed that may make them more than that. Will people will take them over the bikes etc is a different matter.

How would Abbadon or Karn do against a WK? Throw in a bunch of mooks to tank wounds so you only worry about stomps?

Trasvi wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

LOL WUT

Stomps are unreliable because they are only D3 small blasts (I do not know why everyone thinks you automatically get 3 of them?). For each blast, you roll and on a 1 that blast does nothing, 2-5 it is str6 AP4. This means that even Marines may go unharmed.

It is only on a 6 that a stomp blast removes models under it. While this is clearly very powerful, it take a bit to get there. Stomps are best to help the SuperHeavy Walker or Gargantuan Creature prevent chaff units from tarpitting them.

Stomps have a 30% chance to get at least 1 6 result per combat phase. Considering a small blast will cover at LEAST 3 models in combat (probably closer to 6) and it better than instant-deaths anything other than other GMC's/SH's, and it can touch be placed on units that are up to 15" away from the combat, they're actually a damn reliable and deadly attack. Another 6-12 S6 AP4 hits with super-isntant-death on 6's with with every combat round is very respectable, better than many dedicated combat units can actually put out from attacks.

How do you get 30% from m a one in six chance? All math being equal you have the exact same odds of doing nothing as you do removing things.
Is the Avatar still just a MC or did he get buffed to GC? Him being moved up to gargantuan would make perfect sense and I can see him having stomp.

 Fishboy wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

LOL WUT

Stomps are unreliable because they are only D3 small blasts (I do not know why everyone thinks you automatically get 3 of them?). For each blast, you roll and on a 1 that blast does nothing, 2-5 it is str6 AP4. This means that even Marines may go unharmed.

It is only on a 6 that a stomp blast removes models under it. While this is clearly very powerful, it take a bit to get there. Stomps are best to help the SuperHeavy Walker or Gargantuan Creature prevent chaff units from tarpitting them.

Stomps have a 30% chance to get at least 1 6 result per combat phase. Considering a small blast will cover at LEAST 3 models in combat (probably closer to 6) and it better than instant-deaths anything other than other GMC's/SH's, and it can touch be placed on units that are up to 15" away from the combat, they're actually a damn reliable and deadly attack. Another 6-12 S6 AP4 hits with super-isntant-death on 6's with with every combat round is very respectable, better than many dedicated combat units can actually put out from attacks.

How do you get 30% from m a one in six chance? All math being equal you have the exact same odds of doing nothing as you do removing things.
Is the Avatar still just a MC or did he get buffed to GC? Him being moved up to gargantuan would make perfect sense and I can see him having stomp.

Because it is d3 stomps which averages to 2 stomps. 1/6 is about 16% multiplied by 2 for an average of 2 stomps means just over 30% chance of generating one 6.

 docdoom77 wrote:
Because it is d3 stomps which averages to 2 stomps. 1/6 is about 16% multiplied by 2 for an average of 2 stomps means just over 30% chance of generating one 6.

That's not how statistical probability works. If it would work like you say, rolling 6 dice would have a 100% chance of rolling a 6 (which of course, it does not).

But you're close enough in this instance, the chance of rolling at least 1 6 on D3 stomps is
1/3 (chance of rolling 1 stomp) * (1 - 5/6) (chance of rolling a six on one dice) +
1/3 (chance of rolling 2 stomps) * (1 - 5/6 * 5/6) (chance of rolling at least 1 six on two dice) +
1/3 (chance of rolling 3 stomps) * (1 - 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6) (chance of rolling at least 1 six on three dice) = 29.78%

 Fishboy wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

LOL WUT

Stomps are unreliable because they are only D3 small blasts (I do not know why everyone thinks you automatically get 3 of them?). For each blast, you roll and on a 1 that blast does nothing, 2-5 it is str6 AP4. This means that even Marines may go unharmed.

It is only on a 6 that a stomp blast removes models under it. While this is clearly very powerful, it take a bit to get there. Stomps are best to help the SuperHeavy Walker or Gargantuan Creature prevent chaff units from tarpitting them.

Stomps have a 30% chance to get at least 1 6 result per combat phase. Considering a small blast will cover at LEAST 3 models in combat (probably closer to 6) and it better than instant-deaths anything other than other GMC's/SH's, and it can touch be placed on units that are up to 15" away from the combat, they're actually a damn reliable and deadly attack. Another 6-12 S6 AP4 hits with super-isntant-death on 6's with with every combat round is very respectable, better than many dedicated combat units can actually put out from attacks.

How do you get 30% from m a one in six chance? All math being equal you have the exact same odds of doing nothing as you do removing things.
Is the Avatar still just a MC or did he get buffed to GC? Him being moved up to gargantuan would make perfect sense and I can see him having stomp.

You have a 1- 1/3 *((5/6^1 + 5/6^2 + 5/6^3)) = 29.8% chance to do at least 1 D-stomp, which removes everything under the blast, which could be anything from 1 guardsmen to 4 carnifexes.

On the other hand, you have a 1/3*(1/6^1+1/6^2+1/6^3) = 6.6% chance of doing absolutely no damage with stomps, and a 6.6% chance of doing all of your attacks as D-stomps - which is complete overkill, as a single 6 does all that you need in taking out anything that troubles you. On average you do about 12 additional S6 AP4 hits (assuming 2 ranks of combat) - which again, on its own is still a very decent combat contribution that many units would be jealous of.

I wish someone would make a probability calculator, it would be really awesome to be able to show how number of dice and all of these things impact the chances of getting something.

Also it would be nice to be able to put in a low and high threshold and say the % chance of being above the low one, or above the high one.

Also help with these mathhammer arguments.

There are plenty of dice probability calculators online, like http://anydice.com/

But yeah, most require at least a basic understanding of how to calculate probability.

 Redemption wrote:
There are plenty of dice probability calculators online, like http://anydice.com/

But yeah, most require at least a basic understanding of how to calculate probability.

Awesome, I will have to have a look at the code for that.

Trasvi wrote:
On average you do about 12 additional S6 AP4 hits (assuming 2 ranks of combat) - which again, on its own is still a very decent combat contribution that many units would be jealous of.

In regards to the bolded part, Stomp isn't limited to things in combat with the stomper.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off.

It's possible, but not something I would rely on. You need 216 splinter or gauss shots to bring down a WK on average.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better.

You are right, but how many weapons fit this profile? You can probably count them on 1 hand.

Also strength is very important.

Nurgle DPs with a balesword used to be very dangerous to a wraithknight (instant death AP2), but now they will need a 6 to wound and will only do 2 wounds on average per hit.

Nurgle DP with Iron Arm and Touch of Uncreation (Fleshbane)... 6 WS 9 AP2 Instant Death attacks wounding on 2's with re-rolls.
I think? Do you still get the re-roll from poison if it is 'negated' by GMC?

I believe you would get re-rolls, and with those powers the DP has a good chance of winning.

Fleshbane isn;t needed too badly. An iron arm DP wounds on 3+ and gets to re-roll.

Still, its not as reliable as it used to be.
.

Probably the best "true counter" in the Daemon book that I can think of. Nurgle Princes just need one of: Iron Arm, Warp Speed, or Fleshbane Reward - and getting any two of them will basically guarantee a dead WK once he reaches it. There's of course the possibility of not getting any of them, but if you bring 2-3 Princes, that's not a big concern.

Be'lakor is probably the next best. Gauranteed Invisibility and a 2+ Jink means he'll more than likely make it there, and if he doesn't Jink he's got a nice Psychic Shriek to hopefully burn off a wound or two. Invisibility and Eternal Warrior will hopefully keep him pretty safe in Assault, though it doesn't do anything to mitigate DSword or Stomp rolls of 6. With Fleshbane and Master Crafted, he should be doing pretty well.

You could also try to drown the thing in Slaanesh. Seekers and Daemonettes strike at the same time as the WK with a high number of attacks, hitting on 3s, Rending. Enough attacks should hopefully generate a good amount of 6s, and for a much cheaper price point than the WK. Then he's relying on just his FNP to keep him alive. Statistically needs 81 attacks, which is 41 Daemonettes or 27 Seekers before taking into account things like Alluresses, Heartseekers, or Heralds. If the Heralds have Psychic Shriek or the Locus of Beguilement for rerolls, then that number drastically reduces.

We should be getting some photos from early Codex copies soon, right?

Should have already.

There's a guy posting photo's on 4chan right now, actually.

 Redemption wrote:
There's a guy posting photo's on 4chan right now, actually.

Linky bits?