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So I've been looking at adding a squad of Vanguard Vets (10 strong), for quite some time now. The only problem is, I don't know how to equip them to make them the most effective. I was looking at 2-3 Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields to tank AP3 and 2 fire. While giving the rest of them Bolt Pistol/Chainsword. Is this a decent way to run them?

No. The point of the Storm Shields is to purposefully take hits. If you're taking those hits on models that now have 45pts of Wargear EACH then when they die you are not only taking the hit of dead models in the unit, but also those are the only models that made the unit strong.

First of all, you only ever need one Thunder Hammer. Concussive is a one model thing and spending the ten points on the other two is a waste. Powerfists will do fine.

The shields are for members meant to die. Preferably somewhere in the second rank so that they don't die to lucky weak shots but protect the group from Large Blasts. If the immediate threat is a group of Lascannons, shift things around a bit and have the Shields take it on the chin, but for general placement when the enemy has their entire army arrayed against you or like to shoot with weaker guns, normal Chainswords up front, Shields just behind. Dakka actually turned me on to the use of shields at all. I hadn't bothered until recently.

Power Weapons are a must in my book. I actually prefer Power Axes to Fists or Hammers. If S6 (I use Blood Angels so have Furious Charge) isn't enough then I shouldn't be throwing my Vets at it. That's where my Terminators come in at, or bigger guns on vehicles. Two Axes per five Power Weapons is my sweet spot. So, ideally I'd have two standard, three shields with Chainswords, three Power swords and two Power Axes. The Sergeant likely has a Sword. No added guns either. If you want to throw more points on it, change the Shields to Lightning Claw users and the Chainswords are more Power Weapons.

I personally don't like to give models carrying storm shields a special weapon too. Those models out front are going to be the first to die from shooting... why give weapons to the guys that'll probably die, when the guys that are more likely to survive don't get anything? I mean, even if you just take shooting from a basic infantry squad, you're going to lose a marine or 2.

Leave a couple without upgrades, use them to screen small arms fire (a shield dies to lasgun just as easily as armor, but costs more), use a couple with shields to screen AP weapons, and keep the remaining ones out of the way equipped with heavier weaponry. The biggest advantage of non-characters with special weapons is that they're really easy to protect.

Alright guys thanks, I'll take your advice and build my guys accordingly, thanks for your help

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Power Weapons are a must in my book. I actually prefer Power Axes to Fists or Hammers. If S6 (I use Blood Angels so have Furious Charge) isn't enough then I shouldn't be throwing my Vets at it. That's where my Terminators come in at, or bigger guns on vehicles. Two Axes per five Power Weapons is my sweet spot. So, ideally I'd have two standard, three shields with Chainswords, three Power swords and two Power Axes. The Sergeant likely has a Sword. No added guns either. If you want to throw more points on it, change the Shields to Lightning Claw users and the Chainswords are more Power Weapons.

No maces? I generally always prefer maces to swords, as a mace is better against literally everything except armor 3. More kills against anything armor 4 or mob based, and more likely to wound stuff that's armor 2.

Literally only ever worth it if you're against other marines, and in those scenarios you're going to be doing okay with axes and fists anyways.

Just a personal preference I guess, plus I don't go up against marines as often as I do xenos now that I think about it.

If you take the BA formation with 2 VV squads of 10, a squad of 10 sternguard and a raven, you get free power weapons on the VVs and free combis on the sternies (that's 400pts of free wargear). That makes them easily the most optimal build. And since your Ultramarines (by the description under your name) are Battle Brothers with BA, you could simply run them as Ultramarines but instead of them having UM Chapter tactics, they have furious charge instead, and scatter d6" less on DS. Make a fluff reason up for it being so. It's a formation after all so you won't need to invest in the BA codex or exterminatus which has the formation in it, as all the information you need to run it, I have just provided.

Oh requirements are 10man in all three squads and sternguard must start in the raven. There you go - saved you £70 in books and haven't given any information out that isn't already in a million threads given by other users and given no points cost out (you have the SM dex right?), so stuck to dakkas rules. (I'm only stating this to prevent narky comments from any other users - if I'm breaking the rules giving you the information I have, then half the threads on this site break the rules.)

Yeah, I play against MEQ almost exclusively. And again, with Blood Angels I'm already hitting at S5 on the charge so I might be taking that for granted. When the opponent is T3 I'm already getting that 2+ to wound with the sword and when they're T4 then they have 3+ Armor more often than not. It is absolutely personal preference.

So to the OP, if you don't play against Marines and such more than other races, absolutely go for the Mace/Maul. If they're not in Power Armor they will certainly crumble, no doubt about that.

Poly Ranger wrote:
If you take the BA formation with 2 VV squads of 10, a squad of 10 sternguard and a raven, you get free power weapons on the VVs and free combis on the sternies (that's 400pts of free wargear). That makes them easily the most optimal build. And since your Ultramarines (by the description under your name) are Battle Brothers with BA, you could simply run them as Ultramarines but instead of them having UM Chapter tactics, they have furious charge instead, and scatter d6" less on DS. Make a fluff reason up for it being so. It's a formation after all so you won't need to invest in the BA codex or exterminatus which has the formation in it, as all the information you need to run it, I have just provided.

Oh requirements are 10man in all three squads and sternguard must start in the raven. There you go - saved you £70 in books and haven't given any information out that isn't already in a million threads given by other users and given no points cost out (you have the SM dex right?), so stuck to dakkas rules. (I'm only stating this to prevent narky comments from any other users - if I'm breaking the rules giving you the information I have, then half the threads on this site break the rules.)

It's also ~1000 points that starts off the board, and many places won't let you run a formation without having the dataslate/book it came out of. Given that Ultras actually get better with more of their own units, telling him to get ~1k worth of units that don't benefit from his chapter tactics is a bit silly, even if they do come with a substantial amount of free gear. Besides, he's looking to add 10 guys, not 20 plus 3 'Ravens and 10 stearnguard.

Don't forget OP, that they've got 4 attacks plus possibly HoW on the charge, if you're picking appropriate targets, you can often get away with 2 axes and 2 shields (on different models) and let weight of attacks do the rest. Agree with the superiority of Maces over swords unless you fight nothing but marines all day long, but then every mace you take isn't an axe ...

It's one Raven - you're getting your formations mixed up. He asked for the most optimal. 220pts with 10 power weapons then all the other optional upgrades is more optimal than 220pts with 10 chainswords. Means he has to spend 860pts yes - on units such as sternguard and a raven, which are decent units. Also BA CT benefit VVs far more than UM CTs. Also the chapter wasn't stated, I just assumed. So I have given him the most optimal avaliable. Which is btw the title of the thread.

A bit silly? Hardly!

As an ork player, i advocate a barebones squad with a hidden fist

With all the options available, it’s hard to call any loadout optimal. I’d suggest just a few toys, with mostly bare bones guys. Keeps the points down. At the end of the day, they are still 1W models.

One of the guys at the FLGS ran a 5 man squad with nothing but jump packs and melta bombs on all of them in a small game. They seemed to do well. Even if you don’t want to gear up the whole squad, having a few bombs in the unit is probably a good idea.

Was looking through army builder and seems there's a BA formation where you can take 2 10 man vanguard squads with a free power weapon for each model and a 10 man stern squad with a free combi for each model. Looks like a good way to take elites, though I don't play anymore so salt required..

 Yonan wrote:
Was looking through army builder and seems there's a BA formation where you can take 2 10 man vanguard squads with a free power weapon for each model and a 10 man stern squad with a free combi for each model. Looks like a good way to take elites, though I don't play anymore so salt required..

I'd say the BA formation is the only way to run them, even with the ugly chibiraven.

Simply put, VV are massively cost-inefficient units with upgrades. for 52 points you get a 1w jump marine with a 3+ save and a power sword and plasma/grav pistol. They die to things just as easily as, what is it, 17, 18 point ASM for one extra attack and what I consider a points trap. 22 points for a jump marine with two attacks and a free power weapon? That's something to consider, but upgraded beyond a bare minimum they just cost you too many points.

A shame too; I've always liked the idea of assault marines in all their varieties, but they suffer from the same problem most Marine infantry do; they lack both offensive power and resiliency for anything less than a king's ransom in points, and even then fall far short of many other 'dexes infantry options.

The Eldar lol at your fancy VV as they shoot you with S6/7 spam. Wound spam, not AP 2/3, is the real bane of marines. I don't like the power weapons, but prefer 4 X stormshields and meltabombs. They are pretty good against MCs.

Don't put too many eggs in one basket. Most factions have some way to take a 10-man squad off the table if that's what they focus on.

Perhaps 2x5mans would be better than 1x10? Probably with 1-2 special weapons, and maybe 1-2 storm shields?

Melta bomb vets can do some nasty things to vehicles, and can put a dent into most MCs, whereas a few hidden powerweapons or fists can bully smaller squads of many different types, provided you can keep the heat off them.

Not great either way, I think, but they can perform reasonably.