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I am wondering, if i fit a crisis suit with flamers and put em within overwatch range of my other units, can i use their flamers on overwatch and if i can where can i put the template?

Template weapons auto hit D3 on overwatch.

And not to measure range.

Look up "wall of death".

I totally forgot about the wall of death rule *facepalm*

Thanks for answers

Do remember that a Crisis Suit armed with two Flamers may only fire one of them during Overwatch. The suit's built-in Multi-Tracker only functions during the Shooting phase.

"A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase."

Overwatch is described as a normal shooting attack, albeit in the Assault phase and not the Shooting phase. A Crisis Suit making a normal shooting attack without the benefit of the Multi-Tracker (wrong phase) fires only one weapon.

Long story short... if you're taking Flamers purely for Overwatch, never take two. The second one will be wasted.

The only thing that limits the number of weapons you can fire is within the shooting phase. So no, you can either treat it as a mini shooting phase, and follow the rules in there, or any model can fire every weapon they have.

 Kriswall wrote:
Do remember that a Crisis Suit armed with two Flamers may only fire one of them during Overwatch. The suit's built-in Multi-Tracker only functions during the Shooting phase.

"A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase."

Overwatch is described as a normal shooting attack, albeit in the Assault phase and not the Shooting phase. A Crisis Suit making a normal shooting attack without the benefit of the Multi-Tracker (wrong phase) fires only one weapon.

Long story short... if you're taking Flamers purely for Overwatch, never take two. The second one will be wasted.

Please quote the rule that limits the number of weapons a model can fire in the Assault phase.

So I can get a crisis suit and fire 3 weapons in overwatch? Great!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The only thing that limits the number of weapons you can fire is within the shooting phase. So no, you can either treat it as a mini shooting phase, and follow the rules in there, or any model can fire every weapon they have.

I tend to agree, and I treat it as a mini-Shooting phase that occurs during the Assault Phase instead. As such, I use all the Shooting phase rules, but ignore items of Wargear that explicitly say they only work in the Shooting phase. So, you are limited to one weapon per normal, and your Multi-Tracker doesn't work.

My reasoning, which is partly fluff based and totally HIWPI (since RaW breaks down a little), is that a Crisis Suit's systems need at least a little time to calculate the proper targeting data, etc. when firing multiple weapons. If a Shas'vre or Shas'o is being charged, he'll be lucky to randomly spray the area in front of him with flame, causing D3 hits regardless of the number of Flamers he has. Furthermore, if he doesn't have the time to target and fire and his normal BS, I doubt he (or his onboard suit systems) would have the time to properly activate his Multi-Tracker. Hence, one snap shot of one weapon (or one random spray of a Flamer causing D3 hits) is the best he'll be able to pull off when being charged.

...and I'm a Tau player. It's in my best interest to say the Multi-Tracker works during the Assault phase. Doing so just feels like cheating to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Do remember that a Crisis Suit armed with two Flamers may only fire one of them during Overwatch. The suit's built-in Multi-Tracker only functions during the Shooting phase.

"A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase."

Overwatch is described as a normal shooting attack, albeit in the Assault phase and not the Shooting phase. A Crisis Suit making a normal shooting attack without the benefit of the Multi-Tracker (wrong phase) fires only one weapon.

Long story short... if you're taking Flamers purely for Overwatch, never take two. The second one will be wasted.

Please quote the rule that limits the number of weapons a model can fire in the Assault phase.

We both know RaW requires enough interpretation to cause disputes in this case. It's described as a "normal shooting attack" with the acknowledgement that it occurs during the Assault phase. Normal shooting attacks occur during the Shooting phase and are limited to one weapon per model. If we acknowledge the phase change, but retain all other rules for a "normal shooting attack", we remain limited to one weapon.

But, I get that this is partially open to interpretation. I also feel that a reasonable person would never argue that I can fire ALL of a model's weapons during overwatch in an actual game situation. Tau Commanders can actually take 4 weapons. Imagine a Crisis Suit with 4 Burst Cannons firing Overwatch. That's 16 shots from a single model. If I could talk to the authors, I'd bet money that this was not their intent.

 Kriswall wrote:
We both know RaW requires enough interpretation to cause disputes in this case. It's described as a "normal shooting attack" with the acknowledgement that it occurs during the Assault phase. Normal shooting attacks occur during the Shooting phase and are limited to one weapon per model. If we acknowledge the phase change, but retain all other rules for a "normal shooting attack", we remain limited to one weapon.

You do understand that acknowledging the phase change means you must acknowledge that the limitation to firing one weapon doesn't apply, right? As it's also limited to the shooting phase.

But, I get that this is partially open to interpretation. I also feel that a reasonable person would never argue that I can fire ALL of a model's weapons during overwatch in an actual game situation. Tau Commanders can actually take 4 weapons. Imagine a Crisis Suit with 4 Burst Cannons firing Overwatch. That's 16 shots from a single model. If I could talk to the authors, I'd bet money that this was not their intent.

No, I wouldn't argue that during a game. I'd argue that a normal shooting attack from a model that, in the shooting phase, can fire two weapons is a shooting attack with two weapons.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
We both know RaW requires enough interpretation to cause disputes in this case. It's described as a "normal shooting attack" with the acknowledgement that it occurs during the Assault phase. Normal shooting attacks occur during the Shooting phase and are limited to one weapon per model. If we acknowledge the phase change, but retain all other rules for a "normal shooting attack", we remain limited to one weapon.

You do understand that acknowledging the phase change means you must acknowledge that the limitation to firing one weapon doesn't apply, right? As it's also limited to the shooting phase.

But, I get that this is partially open to interpretation. I also feel that a reasonable person would never argue that I can fire ALL of a model's weapons during overwatch in an actual game situation. Tau Commanders can actually take 4 weapons. Imagine a Crisis Suit with 4 Burst Cannons firing Overwatch. That's 16 shots from a single model. If I could talk to the authors, I'd bet money that this was not their intent.

No, I wouldn't argue that during a game. I'd argue that a normal shooting attack from a model that, in the shooting phase, can fire two weapons is a shooting attack with two weapons.

Yup, could go either way. That's why we generally come back to "talk to your opponent, rules are kinda ambiguous". If my opponent wanted to allow the Multi-Tracker, I'd certainly take it. It probably benefits Tau players more than anyone. Who else has widespread Wargear that grants extra attacks in the Shooting phase? I just probably wouldn't ask for it.

 Kriswall wrote:
Who else has widespread Wargear that grants extra attacks in the Shooting phase? I just probably wouldn't ask for it.

Not Wargear, but MCs.

Specifically Tyranid MCs with dual Brain-Leech Devourers. 12 twin linked shots per model, a Brood of 3 Fexes throwing 36 shots.
Or a Tyrannofex with 2 flame templates dropping them both during overwatch.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Who else has widespread Wargear that grants extra attacks in the Shooting phase? I just probably wouldn't ask for it.

Not Wargear, but MCs.

Specifically Tyranid MCs with dual Brain-Leech Devourers. 12 twin linked shots per model, a Brood of 3 Fexes throwing 36 shots.
Or a Tyrannofex with 2 flame templates dropping them both during overwatch.

Most non-Vehicle unit Types can fire one weapon only during a "normal shooting attack". MCs can fire two weapons during a "normal shooting attack". This isn't contingent upon a piece of Wargear saying it only works during the Shooting phase. Ergo, it's not really the same situation.

On a related note, Bikes with more than one rider can fire two weapons during a "normal shooting attack". A Space Marine Assault Bike is one example.

HIWPI (based on my interpretation of RaW) is that I would allow MCs and things like Bikes to make the same number of attacks as they normally would when progressing through the Shooting Sequence.

XV104 Riptides, oddly, are in both camps. They're MCs AND have a Multi-Tracker. Strictly speaking, they can fire 3 weapons in the Shooting phase despite only ever being able to purchase 2. I suppose you could have one standing next to a Quad-Gun. That could give him access to 3 weapons, dependent upon how you read the Quad-Gun rules.

But again, I recognize this is a little ambiguous. In a real game situation, I'd likely just ask my opponent whether or not he wants to allow Wargear that specifies Shooting phase only to apply during an Overwatch and go with his answer.

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Who else has widespread Wargear that grants extra attacks in the Shooting phase? I just probably wouldn't ask for it.

Not Wargear, but MCs.

Specifically Tyranid MCs with dual Brain-Leech Devourers. 12 twin linked shots per model, a Brood of 3 Fexes throwing 36 shots.
Or a Tyrannofex with 2 flame templates dropping them both during overwatch.

Most non-Vehicle unit Types can fire one weapon only during a "normal shooting attack". MCs can fire two weapons during a "normal shooting attack". This isn't contingent upon a piece of Wargear saying it only works during the Shooting phase. Ergo, it's not really the same situation.

Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase – they must, of course, fire both at the same target.

No, it's the exact same situation. It talks about the Shooting Phase.

On a related note, Bikes with more than one rider can fire two weapons during a "normal shooting attack". A Space Marine Assault Bike is one example.

Bikes are indeed different in that they're not limited to Shooting phase.

HIWPI (based on my interpretation of RaW) is that I would allow MCs and things like Bikes to make the same number of attacks as they normally would when progressing through the Shooting Sequence.

I'd rather you be consistent. If you're going to allow MCs to shoot two weapons, you should allow Multi-Trackers to shoot two weapons.

But again, I recognize this is a little ambiguous. In a real game situation, I'd likely just ask my opponent whether or not he wants to allow Wargear that specifies Shooting phase only to apply during an Overwatch and go with his answer.

It's not ambiguous, really. A normal shooting attack for a Tau Suit involves being able to fire two weapons.

I didn't check the MC rules first. I didn't realize it specified the Shooting phase. For some reason, I had it in my head that it said something like "MCs can always fire one additional weapon each time they shoot". My apologies.

In that case, I would agree the MCs only get to fire one weapon during Overwatch since the permission to fire more than one only applies during the Shooting phase.

Reasoning as such.
1. "Normally", a non-vehicle model can only fire one weapon.
2. If the model is an MC and it is the Shooting phase, that model can fire an two weapons instead.

In a normal shooting attack an mc can fire two weapons.

Ultimately, I don't care. If the consensus is that MCs get two and Tau units with Multi-Trackers get two, I'll happily agree. If a given opponent says it's one weapon only during Overwatch, I'll agree also.

If you're playing Tau and your Crisis Suits are being charged, you've likely already lost. One extra shot here or there is unlikely to change that.

Or an extra 6 plasma shots from a squad of Crisis suits with 3 markerlights on the target is an extra 3 dead models; or 12 extra shots from a squad of broadsides with twin-linked...

Anyway, that topic has been done to death and back and there is no concrete answer RAW as there is nothing RAW limiting you to only 1 weapon on overwatch; therefore discuss with your opponent or consult whichever FAQ people are playing with.

Crisis Suits with Flamers on overwatch will get D3 auto hits on overwatch per firing flamer, regardless of the range between the Crisis suits and the charging enemy, though I believe they still must be within line of sight.

 Kriswall wrote:
Ultimately, I don't care. If the consensus is that MCs get two and Tau units with Multi-Trackers get two, I'll happily agree. If a given opponent says it's one weapon only during Overwatch, I'll agree also.

If you're playing Tau and your Crisis Suits are being charged, you've likely already lost. One extra shot here or there is unlikely to change that.

Unless they are Duel Burst Cannon Crisis Suits with Counterfire Defense Systems, which would have 24 BS2 S5 shots which should still put some wounds out, or if multiple Suits are near each other and you make use of Supporting Fire and/or have flamers.
Disregarding a rule simply because it doesn't fit your argument isn't a good way to prove your point and makes your argument hollow. Arguing that these only apply to the Shooting Phase and not Overwatch to reduce the number of weapon that can be fired is handicapped by the One Weapon rule, which is also Shooting Phase only, thus by evenly applying the rules without bias, allows everything to fire every weapon in Overwatch.

It is far more sensible to simply treat it as a normal shooting attack with whatever restrictions Overwatch grants instead of trying to deny some rules while enforcing identically written rules without justification.

 Nilok wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Ultimately, I don't care. If the consensus is that MCs get two and Tau units with Multi-Trackers get two, I'll happily agree. If a given opponent says it's one weapon only during Overwatch, I'll agree also.

If you're playing Tau and your Crisis Suits are being charged, you've likely already lost. One extra shot here or there is unlikely to change that.

Unless they are Duel Burst Cannon Crisis Suits with Counterfire Defense Systems, which would have 24 BS2 S5 shots which should still put some wounds out, or if multiple Suits are near each other and you make use of Supporting Fire and/or have flamers.
Disregarding a rule simply because it doesn't fit your argument isn't a good way to prove your point and makes your argument hollow. Arguing that these only apply to the Shooting Phase and not Overwatch to reduce the number of weapon that can be fired is handicapped by the One Weapon rule, which is also Shooting Phase only, thus by evenly applying the rules without bias, allows everything to fire every weapon in Overwatch.

It is far more sensible to simply treat it as a normal shooting attack with whatever restrictions Overwatch grants instead of trying to deny some rules while enforcing identically written rules without justification.

Dude... I said I didn't care. Learn to relax a little. The rules are unclear. As with 90% of these threads, GW writes crap rules and you should work it out with your opponents.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Ultimately, I don't care. If the consensus is that MCs get two and Tau units with Multi-Trackers get two, I'll happily agree. If a given opponent says it's one weapon only during Overwatch, I'll agree also.

If you're playing Tau and your Crisis Suits are being charged, you've likely already lost. One extra shot here or there is unlikely to change that.

Unless they are Duel Burst Cannon Crisis Suits with Counterfire Defense Systems, which would have 24 BS2 S5 shots which should still put some wounds out, or if multiple Suits are near each other and you make use of Supporting Fire and/or have flamers.
Disregarding a rule simply because it doesn't fit your argument isn't a good way to prove your point and makes your argument hollow. Arguing that these only apply to the Shooting Phase and not Overwatch to reduce the number of weapon that can be fired is handicapped by the One Weapon rule, which is also Shooting Phase only, thus by evenly applying the rules without bias, allows everything to fire every weapon in Overwatch.

It is far more sensible to simply treat it as a normal shooting attack with whatever restrictions Overwatch grants instead of trying to deny some rules while enforcing identically written rules without justification.

Dude... I said I didn't care. Learn to relax a little. The rules are unclear. As with 90% of these threads, GW writes crap rules and you should work it out with your opponents.

A major tenet for me is to apply rules equally.
If you cannot apply rules equally or show a reasonable logical progression, the argument is most likely flawed. If you argue that a rule can't be used, then find a rule you want to use also is disallowed by that same argument and say that one still counts, I view it as dishonest. If you find a discussion of yours is going down this path, you should reexamine your argument so you can both strengthen your argument and so you can find the closest thing we can to the best answer.

In the end I would hope that most discussion be done in good faith and focused around arguments of logos.

 Nilok wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Ultimately, I don't care. If the consensus is that MCs get two and Tau units with Multi-Trackers get two, I'll happily agree. If a given opponent says it's one weapon only during Overwatch, I'll agree also.

If you're playing Tau and your Crisis Suits are being charged, you've likely already lost. One extra shot here or there is unlikely to change that.

Unless they are Duel Burst Cannon Crisis Suits with Counterfire Defense Systems, which would have 24 BS2 S5 shots which should still put some wounds out, or if multiple Suits are near each other and you make use of Supporting Fire and/or have flamers.
Disregarding a rule simply because it doesn't fit your argument isn't a good way to prove your point and makes your argument hollow. Arguing that these only apply to the Shooting Phase and not Overwatch to reduce the number of weapon that can be fired is handicapped by the One Weapon rule, which is also Shooting Phase only, thus by evenly applying the rules without bias, allows everything to fire every weapon in Overwatch.

It is far more sensible to simply treat it as a normal shooting attack with whatever restrictions Overwatch grants instead of trying to deny some rules while enforcing identically written rules without justification.

Dude... I said I didn't care. Learn to relax a little. The rules are unclear. As with 90% of these threads, GW writes crap rules and you should work it out with your opponents.

A major tenet for me is to apply rules equally.
If you cannot apply rules equally or show a reasonable logical progression, the argument is most likely flawed. If you argue that a rule can't be used, then find a rule you want to use also is disallowed by that same argument and say that one still counts, I view it as dishonest. If you find a discussion of yours is going down this path, you should reexamine your argument so you can both strengthen your argument and so you can find the closest thing we can to the best answer.

In the end I would hope that most discussion be done in good faith and focused around arguments of logos.

I'm going to assume that you're not implying I'm being dishonest. Personal attacks are frowned upon.

The rules don't define what a "normal shooting attack" is. As such, we interpret. Whenever interpretation is in play, people will disagree. Such is life. Disagreement, however, does not give you permission to tell me I'm being dishonest in how I structure my argument.

 Kriswall wrote:

Spoiler:

 Nilok wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Ultimately, I don't care. If the consensus is that MCs get two and Tau units with Multi-Trackers get two, I'll happily agree. If a given opponent says it's one weapon only during Overwatch, I'll agree also.

If you're playing Tau and your Crisis Suits are being charged, you've likely already lost. One extra shot here or there is unlikely to change that.

Unless they are Duel Burst Cannon Crisis Suits with Counterfire Defense Systems, which would have 24 BS2 S5 shots which should still put some wounds out, or if multiple Suits are near each other and you make use of Supporting Fire and/or have flamers.
Disregarding a rule simply because it doesn't fit your argument isn't a good way to prove your point and makes your argument hollow. Arguing that these only apply to the Shooting Phase and not Overwatch to reduce the number of weapon that can be fired is handicapped by the One Weapon rule, which is also Shooting Phase only, thus by evenly applying the rules without bias, allows everything to fire every weapon in Overwatch.

It is far more sensible to simply treat it as a normal shooting attack with whatever restrictions Overwatch grants instead of trying to deny some rules while enforcing identically written rules without justification.

Dude... I said I didn't care. Learn to relax a little. The rules are unclear. As with 90% of these threads, GW writes crap rules and you should work it out with your opponents.

A major tenet for me is to apply rules equally.
If you cannot apply rules equally or show a reasonable logical progression, the argument is most likely flawed. If you argue that a rule can't be used, then find a rule you want to use also is disallowed by that same argument and say that one still counts, I view it as dishonest. If you find a discussion of yours is going down this path, you should reexamine your argument so you can both strengthen your argument and so you can find the closest thing we can to the best answer.

In the end I would hope that most discussion be done in good faith and focused around arguments of logos.

I'm going to assume that you're not implying I'm being dishonest. Personal attacks are frowned upon.

The rules don't define what a "normal shooting attack" is. As such, we interpret. Whenever interpretation is in play, people will disagree. Such is life. Disagreement, however, does not give you permission to tell me I'm being dishonest in how I structure my argument.

I never said you were trying to be dishonest, instead why that kind of argument makes me much more hesitant to trust it. Nor was this a personal attack, as I said discussions and arguments should be built on logos, not ethos, and especially not pathos. I was giving you insight in my perspective and gave you some advice on a good way I have found to check against your own argument to make it stronger.

While "normal shooting attack" is never defined, a good way to demonstrate it is to simply perform a shooting attack in the Shooting Phase as normal. So far, I have not found a good reason why Shooting Phase rules should not apply to Overwatch, and by applying Shooting Phase rules to it, you prevent models from firing more weapons than normal.

I apologize if it felt I was going after you.

Right just to break up the arguing a bit:
Is it good for a crisis group to pick up a flamer in general?

I think theres a set-up that uses 2x Missile pods + Flamer and have the pods for long range support and then flamers for overwatch or "too close for comfort" hordes ( Hormagaunts, Orcs etc. )

Or is there other tactics you can use with a Flamer crisis?

In general, no.
Flamers are good against a VERY specific type of enemy: small based, bunched closely together, close to you, with SV 5/6, or SV3/4 with cover 2/3+. Using a flamer typically puts you in assault range for next turn, and is fairly stringent on positioning (can't fire through other models of your unit)
Tau have enough ways to get anti-infantry shots (S5 AP5 being the staple weapon of the army) and ignores cover shots (markerlights or smart missiles) that you really don't need to put your suits in harm's way. Taking 2 burst cannons costs 10pts more, and lets you counter horde infantry with the same or greater efficiency in nearly all situations whilst also being effective against a wide variety of targets such as MEQ and AV10/11.