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what units can arrive by deep strike during the movement phase?
perhaps the 'thirster summoned by that special axe could, but all of the rest (to my knowledge) come in before the movement phase or in the psychic phase. (it is possible for units to arrive during the shooting phase with the warp storm, but if i recall, the heralds and such are not specifically deep striking)

what am i missing here?
it appears the blood tithed 'thirster is the same as any other FMC arriving via deep strike, and is stuck unable to move and defaulted to swooping. it can't switch flight modes because it is unable to begin a movement…

that seems super lame for something like a bloodthirster to be a bit worthless due to that, especially since the army has a special rule that rewards you with a bloodthirster by collecting 8 points… but it does appear to be rules as written.

On the matter of summonings been conjurations.

Conjurations is a type of Psy power, in the corresponding page it specificaly says that a unit conjured enter play via Deep Strike and that it counts as coming from the reserves for rules purposes.

Now this rule here give a specific on where the Summons comes from, reserves.

Blood Tithe isn't a Psy power, neither is it a conjuration ir is there any mention of the conjuration rules, it simply says that units summoned with the Blood tithe enters play via DS immediatly( so in the beginning of the turn phase, since its when you spend yur Blood tithe points).

Now it absolutly don't mean that units coming in like this ignores the usual restrictions from deep strike.

My point is that, you still can change your flight mode when you DS a FMC, since the change doesn't require you to be able to move, the rule also don't force the player to declare he is swooping, the FMC is trated has been allready in swooping mode, and nothing prevents you to do something else if you can in a given phase, for example, if a unit/model is affected by a rule or power or anything during the game that says " the model/unit cannot shoot during the shoothing phase" does it prevents you from running?, no.

The Flight mode change is the same, but you still cannot move further and cannot assault in the same turn.

it just means that you only wait one turn after DS to be able to assault not two.

slamma wrote:what units can arrive by deep strike during the movement phase?
perhaps the 'thirster summoned by that special axe could, but all of the rest (to my knowledge) come in before the movement phase or in the psychic phase. (it is possible for units to arrive during the shooting phase with the warp storm, but if i recall, the heralds and such are not specifically deep striking)

what am i missing here?
it appears the blood tithed 'thirster is the same as any other FMC arriving via deep strike, and is stuck unable to move and defaulted to swooping. it can't switch flight modes because it is unable to begin a movement…

that seems super lame for something like a bloodthirster to be a bit worthless due to that, especially since the army has a special rule that rewards you with a bloodthirster by collecting 8 points… but it does appear to be rules as written.

It comes in via Deep Strike before the Movement Phase as all units that Deep Strike do.

Now. The difference is, those other units that arrive via Deep Strike come in from Reserves, which have a different set of rules that our Bloodthirster does not follow because it is not in Reserves, nor was it placed in Reserves, nor was it ever placed in Reserves, nor could it even be in Reserves. Reserves is where the whole movement thing comes in. Deep Striking is not a move, it never says it is in the rules. Deep Striking From Reserves is a move because Reserves specifically state that the unit moves. The Bloodthirster is not in Reserves so its move never starts until the Movement Phase, where it may change its flight mode to Gliding.

sorry to be an awful piggy back double posting monsterperson, but in case people are not reading both threads, perhaps this is noteworthy to add here:


on page 26, under conjuration, which if i recall is how the blood tithe works, the text reads (in bold in my book):
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike (pg 162)… and is treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes."

what the Deep Strike rules actually say is that the deep striking unit counts as having moved in the Movement Phase. The BRB also explicitly defines actions occurring at the start of the turn to be resolved separately to, and before the Movement Phase. So when summoned by the Blood Tithe the Bloodthirster deep strikes in at the start of the turn (and is swooping) and has therefore not yet moved.

Whether you consider the "counts as having moved" part of the Deep Strike rules as the model actually moving (despite remaining physically stationary on the table) is another issue, but if you think that this is the case then there is nothing to prevent the Bloodthirster changing flight modes in the movement phases as per the rules for FMC, as the start of its move occurs during this phase. If you consider the Bloodthirster not to have actually moved in the movement phase but just "counts as", then there's nothing to stop it changing flight modes in the Assault phase as part of a Run move (which would then be the start of its move).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

slamma wrote:
sorry to be an awful piggy back double posting monsterperson, but in case people are not reading both threads, perhaps this is noteworthy to add here:


on page 26, under conjuration, which if i recall is how the blood tithe works, the text reads (in bold in my book):
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike (pg 162)… and is treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes."

Summoning a Bloodthirster via the Blood Tithe has nothing to do with Conjuration. Khorne hates psykers.

ah, i stand corrected there on the conjuration issue.

still, the daemonkin book does use "arrives via deep strike" (http://forum.spikeybits.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3557&d=1427378627).

and i still see another hole...

we have the text on BRB page 162:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for reserves (pg 135)…"

slamma wrote:
ah, i stand corrected there on the conjuration issue.

still, the daemonkin book does use "arrives via deep strike" (http://forum.spikeybits.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3557&d=1427378627).

and i still see another hole...

we have the text on BRB page 162:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for reserves (pg 135)…"

The Daemonkin Codex (and more specifically the footnote at the bottom of the Blood Tithe table) gives the summoned unit permission to "immediately arrive" via Deep Strike. Codex takes precedence over the BRB and no roll is necessary.

The Daemonkin Codex (and more specifically the footnote at the bottom of the Blood Tithe table) gives the summoned unit permission to "immediately arrive" via Deep Strike. Codex takes precedence over theBRB and no roll is necessary.

Agreed no roll is made as it is automatically passed due to the immediately arrives clause. Where are they arriving from? (Hint: Deepstrike rules tell you the answer)

so the issue can be solved very easily by just checking what the rules referenced actually do:

THE PROBLEM: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode" (BRB 68)
and also: "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn."" (ibidem, "Changing flight mode")

Codex: Khorne Daemonkin (appendix, designers note under blood tithe) explicitly states: "When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board."

"Arriving by Deep Strike" (BRB 162) tells us to "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves (pg. 135) and then deploy them as follows: [...]"


So, how does "Arriving from Reserves" then work? BRB 135, referenced above, says: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving onto the table as describes below [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move".

Rolling is skipped because summoned units arrive "immediately". Deployment after arrival is explicitly stated to be a move.

CONCLUSION: a summoned FMC "arrives" in Swooping mode, but then moves to deploy on the table, immediately declaring what flight mode to use until the start of its next turn.
It cannot charge during the same turn it was summoned (for two reasons: coming from reserves and changing flight modes), but is free to do so next turn.

END OF ARGUMENT------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reason that there is a "default" mode for arriving FMCs is simply to prevent the paradox that otherwise it would have no mode at all if not changed.

Because not all units arrive during the start of the player's turn, they would then have "skipped" the moment to decide, which is not elegible.

The intent seems to be to always let the player decide what mode to use, but grant the enemy 1 turn (not 2!) of shooting before charges (as it is with all other forms of deployment).

the argument about the phrase "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one." (BRB 162) [amended: does have nothing to do with this argument]

Note that a BT summoned from the axe of ruin during the enemy turn thus arrives and moves (changing modes) to deploy even before his own turn.



simple really.

 Nehekhare wrote:
so the issue can be solved very easily by just checking what the rules referenced actually do:

(BRB 162) is based on a misunderstanding: the beginning of the turn is not a phase by itself, but only a singular point within and thus a part of the first phase of the turn (the movement "phase") as per BRB 17, so everything happening at the start of the turn also happens during the movement phase. It is synchronous with the beginning of the movement phase and as such subject to "sequencing" (same page). This btw is further evidence for deep strike deployment being a unit's move for that turn. .

simple really.

During the movement phase?

From P17 under "The Start and End of a Turn"

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

The Blood Tithe happans at the start of the turn, using the rules, this is before the Movement Phase.

The reason that there is a "default" mode for arriving FMCs is simply to prevent the paradox that otherwise it would have no mode at all if not changed.

The problem I have with your argument is that if, by design, they only wanted a single turn penalty to charging they could have easily have made the default mode gliding.

 Aeon wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:
so the issue can be solved very easily by just checking what the rules referenced actually do:

(BRB 162) is based on a misunderstanding: the beginning of the turn is not a phase by itself, but only a singular point within and thus a part of the first phase of the turn (the movement "phase") as per BRB 17, so everything happening at the start of the turn also happens during the movement phase. It is synchronous with the beginning of the movement phase and as such subject to "sequencing" (same page). This btw is further evidence for deep strike deployment being a unit's move for that turn. .

simple really.

During the movement phase?

From P17 under "The Start and End of a Turn"

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

The Blood Tithe happans at the start of the turn, using the rules, this is before the Movement Phase.

And it is quite clear it's before the Movement Phase.

Nehekhare is right for literally every other instance I can think of for Deep Striking. However, in this case it's different.

The summoning of a Bloodthirster via Conjuration is different from Daemonkin because it clearly states that it is having counted as being in Reserves. However, the Daemonkin one does not. Therefore it is not in Reserves. Everything you've quoted has to do with putting units into Reserves and the process of bringing them on from Reserves. I saw nothing in there that stated that a Bloodthirster Deep Striking without being placed in Reserves counts as coming on from Reserves. Why would the Conjuration Bloodthirster specifically be noted as having came from Reserves, yet this one would not at all? There is an important distinction here that I feel is being lost.

I don't get how this conversation has gone on so long. Tyranid, Daemon and CSM players all tolled over the rules for hours trying to figure out how to make assault FMCs as good as they were in 6th. Daemons have been summoning greater daemons since 7th dropped, and the rules haven't changed since then. You arrive in the air, you land next turn, you assault the turn after that. This is why the black mace prince, melee hive tyrants, combat LoC and bloodthirsters are all but gone. The only flying MCs you see now either hop around with shrouded or shoot/summon.

This book has no new rules on how the FMC arrives, if GW wanted it to be able to assault the turn after it came in, or allow FMCs to change flight mode on the turn they arrive from deep strike, it would be more clear in the rules.

Aeon wrote:
From P17 under "The Start and End of a Turn"

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

you are right! the misunderstanding was on my part luckily, it doesn't impact the main argument at all.

Ignatius wrote:
The summoning of a Bloodthirster via Conjuration is different from Daemonkin because it clearly states that it is having counted as being in Reserves. However, the Daemonkin one does not. Therefore it is not in Reserves.

That is a logical fallacy. A missing yes does not equal a no.

I already solved this agument in my sidenote (spoiler) above. C:KDK does not need to mention Reserves *again* because units arriving from deep strike are generally considered to "always begin the game in Reserve" (BRB162).
Deep Strike itself is stated there as "sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve". Conjuring mentioning it explicitly is actually superfluous, yet can be considered as precedence.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
This book has no new rules on how the FMC arrives, if GW wanted it to be able to assault the turn after it came in, or allow FMCs to change flight mode on the turn they arrive from deep strike, it would be more clear in the rules.

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

Implications are not new rules. Start of phase, psychic phase, movement phase it doesn't matter. Arriving via deepstrike is a Flying MC's movement for that turn and they come in soaring.

If they wanted Flying MCs to charge next turn, Flying MCs would come in gliding.

 adamsouza wrote:

The problem I have with your argument is that if, by design, they only wanted a single turn penalty to charging they could have easily have made the default mode gliding.

no need. it can't charge anyway because of entering from reserves.
But it makes sense to DS swooping because it thus avoids mishaps from being placed over other models (BRB 69).
I think the idea behind it was flying creatures entering play from the skies above, not suddenly popping up close to the ground (although the latter might very well apply to summoned daemons).
Think of it as the DoW1 animation of the Bloodthirster summoning, slowly rising to the sky, then exploding in a shower of gore, deciding whether to stay aloft or fall to the ground afterwards.

However, maybe ask the other way around: why do you think would they prevent FMCs 2 turns from charging when everything else in the game and all other ways of deployment only has a 1 turn penalty?

 Nehekhare wrote:

However, maybe ask the other way around: why do you think would they prevent FMCs 2 turns from charging when everything else in the game and all other ways of deployment only has a 1 turn penalty?

Change up the meta and sell some more models is my guess. Same reason for every big rules change that comes through.


On topic, reserves come in before the movement phase, placing them on the table is their movement. In the case of a bloodthirster, its movement is deep strike, in which is always must arrive flying. I wish it wasn't so, I would love to plop down BTs that could do something aside from get shot to death. There is no ands ifs or buts about it. This is almost as bad as the thread where a dude was arguing that a pen hit (before cover save) would take out quantum shielding.

EDIT: I've re-read the rules and flight modes can never be declared twice for one turn even if you were allowed to move. DS deployment as a move is irrelevant,

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Change up the meta and sell some more models is my guess. Same reason for every big rules change that comes through.

On topic, reserves come in before the movement phase, placing them on the table is their movement. In the case of a bloodthirster, its movement is deep strike, in which is always must arrive flying. I wish it wasn't so, I would love to plop down BTs that could do something aside from get shot to death. There is no ands ifs or buts about it. This is almost as bad as the thread where a dude was arguing that a pen hit (before cover save) would take out quantum shielding.

the BRB was written long before the new BT and i doubt that making him worse would boost sales.

on topic i don't see where you would base your identification of arrival and deployment move on when the rules as written place them in a very clear and precise order:

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving onto the table as describes below [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move". (BRB 135)

if deployment move happens after the (swooping) arrival, as you yourself state above, it obviously is an elegible "move" for deciding to change your flight mode.

 Nehekhare wrote:
However, maybe ask the other way around: why do you think would they prevent FMCs 2 turns from charging when everything else in the game and all other ways of deployment only has a 1 turn penalty?

I would just like to point out that this was a thing ever since 7th Edition came out, not something brand new in this Codex.

FMC need 2 Turns to charge if they are swooping. That is just 7th ed ruling, so they are not "worse"?

Well, would anyone then care to elaborate what rule exactly prohibits an FMC to change his flight mode in the same turn it arrived?

Because the deployment paragraph on BRB 68 sure only taks about starting modes at arrival, which obviously happens before a "move", where change is declared.

 Nehekhare wrote:

Aeon wrote:
From P17 under "The Start and End of a Turn"

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

you are right! the misunderstanding was on my part luckily, it doesn't impact the main argument at all.

Ignatius wrote:
The summoning of a Bloodthirster via Conjuration is different from Daemonkin because it clearly states that it is having counted as being in Reserves. However, the Daemonkin one does not. Therefore it is not in Reserves.

That is a logical fallacy. A missing yes does not equal a no.

I already solved this agument in my sidenote (spoiler) above. C:KDK does not need to mention Reserves *again* because units arriving from deep strike are generally considered to "always begin the game in Reserve" (BRB162).
Deep Strike itself is stated there as "sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve". Conjuring mentioning it explicitly is actually superfluous, yet can be considered as precedence.

GENERALLY considered. It's not stated as such in the Daemonkin codex so why are you applying it here? There is a precedent for the requirement for the "Reserves" part being added to the end of "Deep Strike" as it is with Conjuration. It's not there in this case yet you want to just add it on for convenience?

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. Does it tell you to Deep Strike from Reserves like it does in other rules? No. So what do you do. You Deep Strike.

3a. Does the Bloodthirster Deep Strike from Reserves? No.

3b. Does it Deep Strike? Yes.

4a. Is Deep Striking from Reserve a move? Yes.

4b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

5. Has it started its move? No, because it came in as a Deep Strike, not a Deep Strike from Reserves.

So while it can't move or assault, it hasn't begun its movement phase yet and may change its flight mode.

 Ignatius wrote:
3b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

It's not?
Are you really sure about that?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
3b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

It's not?
Are you really sure about that?

Here's my argument why it's not:

Arriving from Reserve
...When Reserves arrive, pick one of your units and deploy it, MOVING it onto the table as described below...

Moving on From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's table edge.

This passage tells us that there are specific verbages used to describe this process. Arrives, is NOT the same as moving, and is also not the same as deploying. When Reserves arrive, they are forced to make their move immediately. Deep Striking Reserves also happen before the Movement, but because of the usage of "Reserves" in the rule, they must also make a move onto the board, regardless of what the Deep Strike rule itself says.

So let's look at Deep Strike, which our Bloodthirster does.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows (My note here: we do not roll for our Bloodthirster, so we do not follow this part of the rule and rolling for Reserves. Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve) or must be specifically mentioned like the "Conjuration" Malefic Power says)
-First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position...
-Next, the unit's remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact... (yada yada yada)
-Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain

There is no mention in the Deep Strike rule of moving, rather Deep Strike units usually move due to the requirement to do so in the "Reserves" section I quoted above. As such, arriving via Deep Strike does not in itself cause a unit to move. Rather arriving from Deep Strike Reserve does, which our Bloodthirster does not do.

I feel that many are getting confused because Deep Striking from Reserves happens so often in the context that it is just assumed to mean the same thing as Deep Strike.

 Ignatius wrote:

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. "Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

why do you insist these are different rule?

 Ignatius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
3b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

It's not?
Are you really sure about that?

Here's my argument why it's not:

You're missing the fact that Deep Striking often has nothing to do with Reserves (unless you think Gate of Infinity temporarily pops you into Reserves, the the Necron teleport-thingy).
You're also missing a rules quote from the Deep Strike rules:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

If you cannot move "any further" that means what has happened is a move.

Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. "Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

why do you insist these are different rule?

Because in the context the rule is being used is for Reserves. If a unit arrives via Deep Strike in Reserves, of course it's sometimes going to be called Deep Strike Reserves. If it's not Reserves, it's not going to be called that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
3b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

It's not?
Are you really sure about that?

Here's my argument why it's not:

You're missing the fact that Deep Striking often has nothing to do with Reserves (unless you think Gate of Infinity temporarily pops you into Reserves, the the Necron teleport-thingy).
You're also missing a rules quote from the Deep Strike rules:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

If you cannot move "any further" that means what has happened is a move.

I've made great pains to illustrate that Deep Striking often has nothing to do with Reserves. I've said that a couple times- and am still being contended on it (see first part of my response).

You have uncovered the only part of my argument that I have no real answer for, as I am looking for a reason that "further" would be in there. Stand by and I'll find something. If not, then I will understand the limitation of my argument and will say it as such.

I dunno, people have been talking about this since the start of 7th…

the deep striking rules clearly say that "deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are the same thing. that deep striking follows the rules for reserves, and then the rules for deep striking. there is also a precedent that arriving from reserves is a move. and there is declaring flight modes at the start of a movement, but deep striking models can't make a movement. the FMC needs to have a mode to be in though, so it is set to swoop.

it appears that if you are playing the deep strike game, you are always going to be involved with reserves.

the better precedent might be set by heralds that result from rolling an 11 on the warp storm table, which says nothing about deep striking. those units do simply appear if i recall correctly. the wording in that case is quite different (and, thankfully, they don't have wings….).

i want to be able to use a 'thirster that way too. i think the rule is lame, but it just seems to be the case here that the tithed 'thirster needs to wait a while.

out of curiosity, what happens to the tithed 'thirster if it mishaps and rolls 4+ on the table? does it go into ongoing reserves?

 Ignatius wrote:
Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve)

it's exactly the other way around: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

Arrival per deep strike is declared "when placing the unit in reserve" (BRB 162), i.e. when summoning it.

Such are the rules for Deep Strike. There is no other Deep Strike besides it.