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rigeld2 wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641693.page#7706381
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

While not literally the same argument, your argument also hinges on arriving by Deep Strike not triggering the restriction to arrive Swooping. Which is what's been argued.

Arguing that they're MCs for this is both incorrect and irrelevant.

But it IS relevant because 'Deep Strike' is not a case under FMC rules only 'Deep Strike Reserve' which is not what the Daemonkin codex states, so the FMC in this case uses its parent MC rules to deepstrike and so swoop is not auto declared and before the deep strike move is made, as per the changing flight modes rule, swoop OR glide can be declared.

chaosmarauder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641693.page#7706381
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

While not literally the same argument, your argument also hinges on arriving by Deep Strike not triggering the restriction to arrive Swooping. Which is what's been argued.

Arguing that they're MCs for this is both incorrect and irrelevant.

But it IS relevant because 'Deep Strike' is not a case under FMC rules only 'Deep Strike Reserve' which is not what the Daemonkin codex states, so the FMC in this case uses its parent MC rules to deepstrike and so swoop is not auto declared and before the deep strike move is made, as per the changing flight modes rule, swoop OR glide can be declared.

No, the real crux of your argument is that the FMC Swooping rule doesn't apply.
Which is the same as the crux of the other arguments.

 Nehekhare wrote:

Kisada II wrote: the rules declare it's in swooping mode when it arrives.
The rules seem clearly intended for using moving in from reserves (that deployment move you keep mentioning), otherwise the rule literally does nothing at all.
So either the rule has does nothing what so ever and only exists to create confusion and arguments, or it puts you in swooping mode for that deployment which would then last until the start of your next turn.

The rule simply sets a default state to apply when there would otherwise be none at all, and if you read carefully, you'll see that it does only apply to "arriving" FMCs, not "moving" (which, as per the rules for reserves, happens after arrival and allows for change of modes). There would be more arguments without such a state (such as: what happens when the FMC scatters onto other models...mishap or ignore, neither or both?).

But you are saying that it's not in swooping mode for that scatter, if Deployment from Deep strike is separate from arrival and actually counts as "it's move" (not saying it does) then when you place the model (deployment) you MUST declare the flight mode (it's not optional) so you wouldn't have that swooping part apply.

So how does that rule help clarify what happens when you scatter on top of another unit?

FlingitNow wrote: First Coteaz IBEY rule never works as it is triggered by arrival within 12" and according to the deployment not being part of arrival argument you would never arrive on the board. Also my statement remains true you are declared swooping just before deploying (i.e. moving) onto the table and are thus stuck swooping until the start of your following turn.

a) good one! but I didn't argue that they are separate or exclusive, only that they are subsequent. All conditions of IBEY are met at the moment when a unit "arriving from reserves" is deployed within 12".
b) yes, you arrive swooping, but no: there is no rule that leaves you stuck on a flight mode you never declared. there is no duration given for the default mode.

chaosmarauder wrote:
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
-so, the first condition "When placing a unit in Reserve" is not met and therefore the condition "called Deep Strike Reserve" is not applied
[...]
So, at the start of the 'deep strike move' Swooping or Gliding is declared, this lasts until the start of the next turn.

the conclusion is correct, but the premise is false: "when placing..." is a condition only for the verbal act "you must tell", while "sometimes called deep strike reserve" is a relative clause that refers to the expression "deep strike" alone.
when x, then y. y is done by ds. ds is sometimes called dsr. you could leave out the rest of the sentence and the relative clause would still be true.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kisada II wrote:
if Deployment from Deep strike is separate from arrival and actually counts as "it's move" (not saying it does) then when you place the model (deployment) you MUST declare the flight mode (it's not optional) so you wouldn't have that swooping part apply.

So how does that rule help clarify what happens when you scatter on top of another unit?

Default Swooping at arrival would still apply when not changed at the start of the deployment move.

You're still under the impression that the "deployment move" is a distinct thing from "arriving" despite evidence otherwise?

Ooookay.

a) good one! but I didn't argue that they are separate or exclusive, only that they are subsequent. All conditions of IBEY are met at the moment when a unit "arriving from reserves" is deployed within 12". 
b) yes, you arrive swooping, but no: there is no rule that leaves you stuck on a flight mode you never declared. there is no duration given for the default mode. 

A) So you admit the deployment is part of arriving. Great.
B) please answer these 3 questions:

1) Is deploying moving? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).
2) Are you told in the FMC rules that you must be swooping when DSing? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).
3) Do the rules state that declaring a flight mode before moving means you are stuck in that flight mode until the start of your next turn? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).

 FlingitNow wrote:

A) So you admit the deployment is part of arriving. Great.
B) please answer these 3 questions:

1) Is deploying moving? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).
2) Are you told in the FMC rules that you must be swooping when DSing? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).
3) Do the rules state that declaring a flight mode before moving means you are stuck in that flight mode until the start of your next turn? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).

A) obvious strawman argument.

B)
1) which kind of deployment? Do you mean the "standart deployment method" at the start of the game or deployment from reserves? The more exact your questions, the more exact your answers. As for the latter: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table" (BRB 135).
2) is this exact wording how you would play it? you should mark your post as such then, because the rules as written beg to differ: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." (BRB 68)
3) is this exact wording how you would play it? you should mark your post as such then, because the rules as written beg to differ: "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." (BRB 68)

1) context should tell you I was talking about deploying from reserves.
2) glad you agree
3) glad you agree

Then QED.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated.

The blood tithe FMCs are special in this regard because they arrive before the movement phase. No rules are ignored.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated. 

The blood tithe FMCs are special in this regard because they arrive before the movement phase. No rules are ignored.

What a confused post? Did that make any sense to you when you wrote it? His interpretation is wrong because start of the turn is in the movement phase but FMCs are special because start of the turn is before the movement phase?

What are you on?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated. 

The blood tithe FMCs are special in this regard because they arrive before the movement phase. No rules are ignored.

What a confused post? Did that make any sense to you when you wrote it? His interpretation is wrong because start of the turn is in the movement phase but FMCs are special because start of the turn is before the movement phase?

What are you on?

Can we keep this polite? Assuming your opponent is taking drugs isn't polite. I thought his post made perfect sense in the context of this thread. The real question is whether or not a FMC who arrives BEFORE the Movement phase is allowed to move or change from Swooping to Gliding in the same turn's Movement phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:

1) context should tell you I was talking about deploying from reserves.
2) glad you agree
3) glad you agree

Then QED.

1) A) should have told you I don't fall for cheap strawman arguments, so ...
2)/3) I agree that the way you play it has no foundation in the rules as written

do you know what q.e.d. means?

You agreed what the rules say. Therefore we know the result or you are not arguing RaW. Actually on 1 I've dropped because it wasn't that necessary since you effectively conceded with the rest of your post. Do you agree that arriving by deepstrike can happen within 12" of a model (this is the same as agreeing deploying by DS is part of arriving by DS).

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated.

No, you've failed to demonstrate that.
I've shown that arriving is simultaneous to deploying (when speaking of reserves). I've shown that arriving happens when you roll a 3+ on the die.

Reserves arrive before the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nehekhare wrote:

A) obvious strawman argument.

How is it a Strawman? Please, elaborate rather than ignore his point.

FlingitNow wrote:You agreed what the rules say. Therefore we know the result or you are not arguing RaW. Actually on 1 I've dropped because it wasn't that necessary since you effectively conceded with the rest of your post. Do you agree that arriving by deepstrike can happen within 12" of a model (this is the same as agreeing deploying by DS is part of arriving by DS).

you dropped 1 because I didn't fall for an imprecise question intended to goad people into absurd consequences.
you dropped 2 because your paraphrasing of the DS rules was proven wrong by simply quoting the rules (which is quite ironic considering your constant -pointless- accusations of rules bending)
you dropped 3 because you constructed a duration for a default state but failed to provide evidence for its existence.

and you'll drop this last question when I simply repeat my first anwer:

All conditions of IBEY are met at the moment when a unit "arriving from reserves" is deployed within 12"

to elaborate:

"arriving" is a status that logically precedes deployment and which is kept until deployment, as indicated by the following quote:
"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table." (BRB 135)

The default flight mode triggered "if a FMC arrives via Deep strike reserves" (BRB 68) has no set duration and does in no way prohibit changing modes "at the start of its move" (ibd.), which is the deployment move.

So please forgive me. I want confirmation the main discussion is whether or not a summoned FMC can be in glide mode the same turn it arrives. Y'all leave no stone unturned.

So you agree to the following:

1) Deploying by deepstrike is part of the arriving by deepstrike process.
2) Deploying from reserves is moving, and deploying by deepstrike is moving.
3) A Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
4) At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
5) Arriving by Deepstrike happens in the start of the turn phase.

Do we all agree on the 5 above. If you disagree with any please let me know.

Might this help...

BRB, "The Turn" section...

"The Start and End of a Turn
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens ‘at the end of your turn’ is always resolved after your Assault phase has finished, but before your opponent’s next turn (if any) starts."

If the Blood Tithe FMC is summoned at the start of the turn, he will be on the table and the deep strike process will be fully completed BEFORE the Movement phase has occurs. He would be present on the table when he is forced to choose between Swooping and Gliding. I'm not going to get into whether or not he's allowed to move in the Movement phase (I think he should be able to), but he should certainly be able to change to Gliding on the same turn that he's summoned.

 Kriswall wrote:
Might this help...

BRB, "The Turn" section...

"The Start and End of a Turn
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens ‘at the end of your turn’ is always resolved after your Assault phase has finished, but before your opponent’s next turn (if any) starts."

If the Blood Tithe FMC is summoned at the start of the turn, he will be on the table and the deep strike process will be fully completed BEFORE the Movement phase has occurs. He would be present on the table when he is forced to choose between Swooping and Gliding. I'm not going to get into whether or not he's allowed to move in the Movement phase (I think he should be able to), but he should certainly be able to change to Gliding on the same turn that he's summoned.

Regular deep striking is also done at the start of the turn before the movement phase. It makes no difference.

 Kriswall wrote:
Might this help...

BRB, "The Turn" section...

"The Start and End of a Turn
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens ‘at the end of your turn’ is always resolved after your Assault phase has finished, but before your opponent’s next turn (if any) starts."

If the Blood Tithe FMC is summoned at the start of the turn, he will be on the table and the deep strike process will be fully completed BEFORE the Movement phase has occurs. He would be present on the table when he is forced to choose between Swooping and Gliding. I'm not going to get into whether or not he's allowed to move in the Movement phase (I think he should be able to), but he should certainly be able to change to Gliding on the same turn that he's summoned.

So you think the same is true for all Deepstriking FMCs as they all arrive during start of the turn phase.

Ah, I see my confusion. The decision to swoop or glide is made at the start of its move and not at the start of the Movement phase. I think I misread a post. Ignore me!

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Might this help...

BRB, "The Turn" section...

"The Start and End of a Turn
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens ‘at the end of your turn’ is always resolved after your Assault phase has finished, but before your opponent’s next turn (if any) starts."

If the Blood Tithe FMC is summoned at the start of the turn, he will be on the table and the deep strike process will be fully completed BEFORE the Movement phase has occurs. He would be present on the table when he is forced to choose between Swooping and Gliding. I'm not going to get into whether or not he's allowed to move in the Movement phase (I think he should be able to), but he should certainly be able to change to Gliding on the same turn that he's summoned.

So you think the same is true for all Deepstriking FMCs as they all arrive during start of the turn phase.

Actually, Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. Blood Tithe FMCs are an exception to this as their rules give them permission to arrive in the start of turn phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated.

No, you've failed to demonstrate that.
I've shown that arriving is simultaneous to deploying (when speaking of reserves). I've shown that arriving happens when you roll a 3+ on the die.

No, you've failed to show that.

Actually, Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. Blood Tithe FMCs are an exception to this as their rules give them permission to arrive in the start of turn phase.

Really? I want a quote for that. Do you agree with the following:

1) Deploying by deepstrike is part of the arriving by deepstrike process. 
2) Deploying from reserves is moving, and deploying by deepstrike is moving. 
3) A Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode. 
4) At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. 
5) Arriving by Deepstrike happens in the start of the turn phase. 

 FlingitNow wrote:

Actually, Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. Blood Tithe FMCs are an exception to this as their rules give them permission to arrive in the start of turn phase.

Really? I want a quote for that.

Since you've clearly not been following the thread and you've demanded so politely, that's not a problem.

The Deep Strike rules say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. I really don't see any other way you could interpret this rule although I'm sure you'll give it a go.

N.B. The rules don't say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." In which case it would certainly be less obvious in which phase they were arriving.

The Deep Strike rules say "In the Movement phase , Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. I really don't see any other way you could interpret this rule although I'm sure you'll give it a go. 

Cool so arriving according to this happens in the movement phase. This is your interpretation correct? Arriving happens in the movement phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So you agree to the following:

1) Deploying by deepstrike is part of the arriving by deepstrike process.
2) Deploying from reserves is moving, and deploying by deepstrike is moving.
3) A Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
4) At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
5) Arriving by Deepstrike happens in the start of the turn phase.

Do we all agree on the 5 above. If you disagree with any please let me know.

if the rules disagree, they care not for appeals to the public.

1) is paraphrased to the point of imprecision where identity or subordination is implied rather than sequency/causation. Remember: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving onto the table as describes below [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move"
2) is actually a conclusion missing the second premise: deploying from deep strike is deploying from reserves (which I'd agree with!).
3) and 4) are direct rules quotes and therefore unaffected by agreement or disagreement.
5) is true for units that were kept in reserves at the start of the game, but there are other ways for units to arrive via deep strike (reserves), e.g. veil (movement phase), skies of blood (movement phase), conjuration (psychic phase), blood tithe (start of the game), axe of ruin (any phase, even during opponent's turn). Also, there is no "start of the turn phase"

So walls of text aside, what is the general consensus, can the summoned bloodthirster assault the turn its out?

A simple yes or no will suffice, a show of hands if you will

 Formosa wrote:
So walls of text aside, what is the general consensus, can the summoned bloodthirster assault the turn its out?

A simple yes or no will suffice, a show of hands if you will

no, but It can charge the turn thereafter.

 Formosa wrote:
So walls of text aside, what is the general consensus, can the summoned bloodthirster assault the turn its out?

A simple yes or no will suffice, a show of hands if you will

Yes

I don't think anyone is saying it can assault the turn its summoned. The issue is if it can assault the turn after ,or the turn after that (having had to change flight modes the intermediate turn) ..

For the show of hands ,the rules are clear to me that a BT summoned at the start of a turn through the blood tithe will have to wait two turns before it can assault. (T1 swoop , T2 transition to glide, T3 assault).

It does suck a lot.