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Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





1) DSing FMCs are "arriving" (continuous present) until placed on (moving onto) on the board. Change of flight mode is declared at the start of this move. IF (not "when") they arrive via DS reserve, FMCsalways count as being in Swooping mode until this change of modes. 
5) the start of the turn is not a phase. 


So we agree that FMCs arrive swooping and are thus stuck doing that until their next turn. Everything else seems irrelevant but for a sense of completion what phase to Blood Tithe summoned FMCs arrive and how does this differ to normal DS reserves?

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies. 


Incorrect regular reserves arrive during the start of the turn phase. Check the reserves rules or read Rigeld's post.


The reserves rule is interesting.. it doesn't split the start of turn from the movement phase very well. I can now see why this has become the crux of the argument.. debating the minor semantics of the section. Hardly seems like a fun way to spend an evening, but hey. I reckon that the roll for reserves is at the start of turn, and the arriving is in the movement phase. this isn't explicitly stated of course, but you are required to move the models on, which is something you do in the movement phase, after which "the player can then proceed to move his other units as normal" (terrible gender stereotyping!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And more importantly, the deep strike section forbids movement in "the movement phase in which they arrive", which is pretty clear.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 21:57:08


DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Captyn_Bob wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies. 


Incorrect regular reserves arrive during the start of the turn phase. Check the reserves rules or read Rigeld's post.


The reserves rule is interesting.. it doesn't split the start of turn from the movement phase very well. I can now see why this has become the crux of the argument.. debating the minor semantics of the section. Hardly seems like a fun way to spend an evening, but hey. I reckon that the roll for reserves is at the start of turn, and the arriving is in the movement phase. this isn't explicitly stated of course, but you are required to move the models on, which is something you do in the movement phase, after which "the player can then proceed to move his other units as normal" (terrible gender stereotyping!)


Only when you start moving your other units are you in the movement phase. Moving on reserves happens when you arrive and is thus part of "Start of the turn". Hopefully you can now see what shakey ground the change of flight mode crowd are on. It's not RaW, nor is it RaI so why bother continuing to argue unless you're absolutely desperate for an unfair advantage.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Come now, we're all just gamers trying to sort out a rule.. there is no need for agenda.

How do you explain the deep strike rule explicitly stating the "movement phase when they arrive"?

DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




It's likely a holdover from 6th, when the was no start of turn period of time.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




So a mistake in the rules? If one interpretation excludes a rule as mistake, and another interpretation does not, the one without the mistake is stronger.

DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Captyn_Bob wrote:
Come now, we're all just gamers trying to sort out a rule.. there is no need for agenda.

How do you explain the deep strike rule explicitly stating the "movement phase when they arrive"?


It by context clearly means the movement phase of the turn they arrive or it is meaningless. However arrival absolutely occurs during the start of the turn we are literally told this. A hint provided by a badly worded sentence doesn't over rule the actual rules. At best this leads the start of the turn to be part of the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The issue with agenda is one side is not looking at the rules to find the answer, they have their answer and are trying to find rules to support it. It makes discussion often circular and fruitless with one side ignoring everything that doesn't lead to the answer they want or just looking for spoiling tactics (to try to make the rules seem unclear so they can push their answer as RaI or HYWPI).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 22:57:03


Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
Come now, we're all just gamers trying to sort out a rule.. there is no need for agenda.

How do you explain the deep strike rule explicitly stating the "movement phase when they arrive"?


It by context clearly means the movement phase of the turn they arrive or it is meaningless. However arrival absolutely occurs during the start of the turn we are literally told this. A hint provided by a badly worded sentence doesn't over rule the actual rules. At best this leads the start of the turn to be part of the movement phase.


.. actually, you are told you roll to roll at the start of the phase to determine which units arrive in the turn, which can equally mean the following movement phase. The language is ambiguous, far more so then the line that you want to disregard utterly.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The issue with agenda is one side is not looking at the rules to find the answer, they have their answer and are trying to find rules to support it. It makes discussion often circular and fruitless with one side ignoring everything that doesn't lead to the answer they want or just looking for spoiling tactics (to try to make the rules seem unclear so they can push their answer as RaI or HYWPI).

Alas, this works both ways, which is why its best to not point it out, as it appears rude and arrogant, which doesn't help anyone.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/06 23:04:20


DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu






 FlingitNow wrote:
Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies. 


Incorrect regular reserves arrive during the start of the turn phase. Check the reserves rules or read Rigeld's post.


Incorrect. Check the reserves rules.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

That tells me that units arriving from Reserve before the start of the Movement phase, i.e. the start of the turn.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





 Tonberry7 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies. 


Incorrect regular reserves arrive during the start of the turn phase. Check the reserves rules or read Rigeld's post.


Incorrect. Check the reserves rules.


I have they say start of turn.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in be
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Belgium

 FlingitNow wrote:
1) DSing FMCs are "arriving" (continuous present) until placed on (moving onto) on the board. Change of flight mode is declared at the start of this move. IF (not "when") they arrive via DS reserve, FMCsalways count as being in Swooping mode until this change of modes. 
5) the start of the turn is not a phase. 


So we agree that FMCs arrive swooping and are thus stuck doing that until their next turn. Everything else seems irrelevant but for a sense of completion what phase to Blood Tithe summoned FMCs arrive and how does this differ to normal DS reserves?


Actually nothing says that they are stuck in swooping mode, nor that you can't change, nor that you need to be able to move to do so.

it just says that a FMC that gets on the table via DS, is treated as been in swooping mode.

But we have seen that reserves comes in in the beginning of the turn, prior to movement, so you still have your movement phase, even though it is crystal clear that you cannot move further( not anymore or ignore your move phase, just further), or assaulting in the same turn.

So you can still change flight modes, but you still need to wait a turn to do something else then look menacing on the table.

I don't really get where the "can assault the same turn" comes from...

Also Blood tithe rules says that units comes in DS immediatly, and you use the Blood points at the beginning of the turn.

Then again i think this conversation should be put on hold until we have more info or a faq and maybe spent our energy in other rules questions about this codex.

   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Tonberry7 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies. 


Incorrect regular reserves arrive during the start of the turn phase. Check the reserves rules or read Rigeld's post.


Incorrect. Check the reserves rules.

I've quoted them. Again, just for you.

Have an answer for my two questions yet? Or still trying to think of a way to answer them that doesn't prove you wrong?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch




Wheeew! what a thread…

-page 17 clearly shows there being a separate phase called "the start of your turn" and it happens before the movement phase.
-deep strike rules (p162) say to use the rules for reserves (p135) and then the deep strike rules. there could be a miscommunication on when to switch from one to the other, as it is not explicit.
-p135 says "at the start of your turn" and also uses the word "automatically" a few lines down from the section header.
-there is a discrepancy in the rules where it says "in the movement phase during which they arrive" on page 162. it appears to be the only instance where it is said like that.
but directly after that, p162 also says that "units may not move any further".

what defines daemonkin blood tithes to be any different?
(unfortunately it appears they are not…)



40K: | |

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The difference , ridiculously small as it is , is that blood tithes appear at the start of turn ,whereas regular deep strikes appear in the movement phase. As clearly stated on p162. If you don't ignore that line , then it all works, apart from the one instance where automatically is used. Either way you are required to ignore a line of rules for it to make sense.

Of you look closely at the reserve rules ,for the most part they say roll for reserves at start of turn , to determine if they stove during that turn. As they arrive via moving , before other models are moved, I judge that this is happening at the start of the movement phase .. where moves happen.

DFTT 
   
Made in us
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch




So let's try to sort this out then:

there are instances where a unit arrives from reserves at the "start of turn phase", such as start of turn 4 and from ongoing reserves.
the rule book does differentiate these two instances with the word "automatically" (in the case of turn 4), and "units in ongoing reserve re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for reserves" (136).
so the blood tithe would then be one of these scenarios in that it's "immediately" and at the start of your turn?


on 135, it says " at the start of your second turn, you must roll".
perhaps it's only the roll you do at the start of turn phase, and then actually move on during the movement phase? would this say that deep striking is different than a normal reserve walking onto the field, or flying in? as it appeared to me, and has been argued a whole lot, to be just another way of doing the same act of showing up on the board.

and, this seems relevant, does an ongoing reserve FMC get to change its flight modes upon re-entry? "whilst in reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode" (p69)

it'd be nice if there was a clear statement of "you roll for reserves at the start of the turn, and then those reserves move on during the movement phase"
however weird that statement may sound, it would have ended this argument ages ago… but i haven't found that in the rulebook, aside from page 162's line "in the movement phase during which they arrive".
it is not clear that all movement implies the movement phase (easy example being: running)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/07 07:55:14


40K: | |

 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





The difference , ridiculously small as it is , is that blood tithes appear at the start of turn ,whereas regular deep strikes appear in the movement phase.


As proven this is false (and irrelevant). In both circumstances you arrive in during the start of the turn as has been proven to you. Also as has been proven you may not move in the movement phase with no move you can't change flight mode. Finally as has also been proven RaW since you are forced to be swooping when you arrive (at the start of your DS move) you are stuck swooping until the start of your next turn (unless grounded). These are quite literally the rules.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Except for the rule that says deep strikers arrive in the movement phase, which you're choosing to ignore?

But yeah it's a bit of a mess...
Let's simplify,

How about.. what rule prevents an FMC arriving via the blood tithe moving in its movement phase? Quote the rule.

DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Captyn_Bob wrote:
Except for the rule that says deep strikers arrive in the movement phase, which you're choosing to ignore?

But yeah it's a bit of a mess...
Let's simplify,

How about.. what rule prevents an FMC arriving via the blood tithe moving in its movement phase? Quote the rule.


No rules says the underlined. However that rule does state ypu can't move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reserves page 135

"At the start of your second turn you must roll..."

"If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn."

Ongoing Reserves page 136
"Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of the their controlling player's following turn"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/07 10:19:03


Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I was of course referring to p162 where it says a unit which is deployed by deep strike may not move further In the Movement phase during which they arrive.
Which is quite straightforward and does indeed contradict the two lines you've quoted above.

I think this has gone around a few times now. I've just had a baby , so sadly have better things to do than internet rules lawyering now. Sure you guys can keep this going tho. Adios.

DFTT 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Captyn_Bob wrote:
The difference , ridiculously small as it is , is that blood tithes appear at the start of turn ,whereas regular deep strikes appear in the movement phase. As clearly stated on p162. If you don't ignore that line , then it all works, apart from the one instance where automatically is used. Either way you are required to ignore a line of rules for it to make sense.

Of you look closely at the reserve rules ,for the most part they say roll for reserves at start of turn , to determine if they stove during that turn. As they arrive via moving , before other models are moved, I judge that this is happening at the start of the movement phase .. where moves happen.

You can "judge" whatever you want, but saying that Reserves arrive during the movement phase is demonstrably wrong.
Please read the thread.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I was of course referring to p162 where it says a unit which is deployed by deep strike may not move further In the Movement phase during which they arrive.
Which is quite straightforward and does indeed contradict the two lines you've quoted above.

I think this has gone around a few times now. I've just had a baby , so sadly have better things to do than internet rules lawyering now. Sure you guys can keep this going tho. Adios.

Telling someone who moved at the start of the turn that they can't move further during the Movement phase doesn't' mean that they moved during the Movement phase

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in de
Snivelling Workbot





 FlingitNow wrote:

So we agree

No.

 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu






 FlingitNow wrote:
 Tonberry7 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies. 


Incorrect regular reserves arrive during the start of the turn phase. Check the reserves rules or read Rigeld's post.


Incorrect. Check the reserves rules.


I have they say start of turn.


No they don't.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Tonberry7 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
 Tonberry7 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies. 


Incorrect regular reserves arrive during the start of the turn phase. Check the reserves rules or read Rigeld's post.


Incorrect. Check the reserves rules.


I have they say start of turn.


No they don't.

So, still ignoring my questions?
Because according to the actual rules as I've cited and explained, they do say start of turn.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





 Tonberry7 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
 Tonberry7 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies. 


Incorrect regular reserves arrive during the start of the turn phase. Check the reserves rules or read Rigeld's post.


Incorrect. Check the reserves rules.


I have they say start of turn.


No they don't.


The rules disagree with you. Please clearly mark your posts as HYWPI as the rules claim thus:


Reserves page 135 

"At the start of your second turn you must roll..." 

"If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn." 

Ongoing Reserves page 136 
"Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of the their controlling player's following turn"

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eye of Terror

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Made in gb
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu






rigeld2 wrote:
 Tonberry7 wrote:
I did read your post, and yes, you did attempt to address it. Unfortunately, as I said, all you managed to establish is that reserves arrive that turn, not that they arrive before the Movement phase. But why are you even continuing to discuss Reserves? You've already conceded that units summoned via the Blood Tithe aren't coming from reserve so it's really not relevant to the issue of the of the Bloodthirster being summoned this way. However, just to draw a line under this issue, I'll run you through the RAW.

I wasn't the first person who brought it up. I was responding to you arguing about Reserves.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/641693/7715421.page

Well, the rules state that they move "onto the table as described below". Let's then look below where the rules say "When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge". So when do we move units? In the Movement phase. The rules also state that "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve". This is because it has missed the start of the turn phase, having entered play at the start of the Movement phase. We already know Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase; why would it be any different for units in Reserve moving on from the board edge?

So you are actually contending that Reserves that arrive on T4 arrive at a different time than those on turns 2 and 3? And Ongoing Reserves also arrive at a different time than normal Reserves?

In actual fact, the way the Reserves rules are written is very compatible with them arriving during the Movement Phase and there are no rules or conflicts suggesting that this isn't the case. The only explicit restriction is that you must move all your arriving Reserves before moving your other units but this is not at all incompatible with the Reserves arriving during the Movement Phase; indeed if they were arriving during the start of the turn phase this instruction would be redundant and unnecessary.

The fact that it's redundant doesn't mean anything.
It's a reminder more than anything else - that you can't move a unit out of the way and then move Reserves on.

I also love how you snipped part of my post out that addressed literally every word you typed in this one before you even typed it.

Do Reserves arrive on turn 4 at the same point in the turn that they do on turns 2 and 3? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.
Do Ongoing Reserves arrive at the same point in the turn as regular Reserves? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.


1. Apologies for not addressing your post straight away, however, I have a life outside of internet forums and can't be on here all day every day.

2. I thought we had agreed that Reserves were irrelevant to the topic under discussion, namely a Bloodthirster being summoned via the Blood Tithe and whether or not it can change flight modes in the turn in which it arrives. Yet you still continue to discuss Reserves, in fact it's the only thing you seem able to discuss.

3. I'm going to choose not to answer your questions, and not because my answers would "prove me wrong" (they wouldn't). Firstly, the answers would be as irrelevant as the questions themselves, but also because your entire post offers nothing of merit in terms of the rules debate. You haven't presented any new arguments discussing the topic, in fact you haven't offered any arguments at all. All you have posted are a few questions that have nothing to do with a Blood Tithe Bloodthirster. To be honest I had expected some semblance of a reasoned response, but your posts are starting to sound like Flingitnow's and quite frankly smack of desperation. If you have a fresh argument regarding the rules that you can back up with citations, please do present it, but just to respond with questions is weak in terms of presenting a case.

Finally, I've shown in this thread, over the course of several posts, with citations and explanations, how the RAW allow a Bloodthirster being summoned via the Blood Tithe to change flight modes during the same turn and therefore charge the next turn. Nothing you've posted (or any other posts) has proven this to be incorrect; if you can come up with any new (and valid) points please let me know and I'll have a look but until then there's it's fairly clear that there's little point in discussing it further. You've obviously decided for some reason that you don't like the fact that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster can do this by RAW and will argue against it no matter what, even though your counter-arguments to date have involved irrelevant topics, unsafe assumptions, and the outright ignoring of some rules.

So unless GW issue a rules errata, I'm going to continue to summon Blood Tithe Bloodthirsters and then charge them in the next turn. And no, this won't be HIWPI or a House Rule, but a perfectly permissible tactic fully compatible with the RAW as they stand.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Do you think it can move as well as change flight modes?

DFTT 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Tonberry7 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Tonberry7 wrote:
I did read your post, and yes, you did attempt to address it. Unfortunately, as I said, all you managed to establish is that reserves arrive that turn, not that they arrive before the Movement phase. But why are you even continuing to discuss Reserves? You've already conceded that units summoned via the Blood Tithe aren't coming from reserve so it's really not relevant to the issue of the of the Bloodthirster being summoned this way. However, just to draw a line under this issue, I'll run you through the RAW.

I wasn't the first person who brought it up. I was responding to you arguing about Reserves.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/641693/7715421.page

Well, the rules state that they move "onto the table as described below". Let's then look below where the rules say "When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge". So when do we move units? In the Movement phase. The rules also state that "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve". This is because it has missed the start of the turn phase, having entered play at the start of the Movement phase. We already know Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase; why would it be any different for units in Reserve moving on from the board edge?

So you are actually contending that Reserves that arrive on T4 arrive at a different time than those on turns 2 and 3? And Ongoing Reserves also arrive at a different time than normal Reserves?

In actual fact, the way the Reserves rules are written is very compatible with them arriving during the Movement Phase and there are no rules or conflicts suggesting that this isn't the case. The only explicit restriction is that you must move all your arriving Reserves before moving your other units but this is not at all incompatible with the Reserves arriving during the Movement Phase; indeed if they were arriving during the start of the turn phase this instruction would be redundant and unnecessary.

The fact that it's redundant doesn't mean anything.
It's a reminder more than anything else - that you can't move a unit out of the way and then move Reserves on.

I also love how you snipped part of my post out that addressed literally every word you typed in this one before you even typed it.

Do Reserves arrive on turn 4 at the same point in the turn that they do on turns 2 and 3? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.
Do Ongoing Reserves arrive at the same point in the turn as regular Reserves? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.


1. Apologies for not addressing your post straight away, however, I have a life outside of internet forums and can't be on here all day every day.

Even though you replied to other comments twice before now? Yeah, okay.

2. I thought we had agreed that Reserves were irrelevant to the topic under discussion, namely a Bloodthirster being summoned via the Blood Tithe and whether or not it can change flight modes in the turn in which it arrives. Yet you still continue to discuss Reserves, in fact it's the only thing you seem able to discuss.

No, we never "agreed" to that - you made that assertion after you brought it up and I showed you that you were wrong.
It's not irrelevant, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

3. I'm going to choose not to answer your questions, and not because my answers would "prove me wrong" (they wouldn't). Firstly, the answers would be as irrelevant as the questions themselves, but also because your entire post offers nothing of merit in terms of the rules debate. You haven't presented any new arguments discussing the topic, in fact you haven't offered any arguments at all. All you have posted are a few questions that have nothing to do with a Blood Tithe Bloodthirster. To be honest I had expected some semblance of a reasoned response, but your posts are starting to sound like Flingitnow's and quite frankly smack of desperation. If you have a fresh argument regarding the rules that you can back up with citations, please do present it, but just to respond with questions is weak in terms of presenting a case.

I've presented the rules, you've ignored the citations. Instead of discussing rules, you simply tell me I'm wrong. When I find an alternate method of explaining to you (asking questions) you pretend it's irrelevant and want to ignore it.
Poor debate form sir.

Finally, I've shown in this thread, over the course of several posts, with citations and explanations, how the RAW allow a Bloodthirster being summoned via the Blood Tithe to change flight modes during the same turn and therefore charge the next turn.

That's incorrect - you've posted citations and assertions, but they do not match with the actual rules, especially since you must ignore rules to get your assertions to be correct.

Nothing you've posted (or any other posts) has proven this to be incorrect; if you can come up with any new (and valid) points please let me know and I'll have a look but until then there's it's fairly clear that there's little point in discussing it further. You've obviously decided for some reason that you don't like the fact that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster can do this by RAW and will argue against it no matter what, even though your counter-arguments to date have involved irrelevant topics, unsafe assumptions, and the outright ignoring of some rules.

a) Insinuating bias when there is none is rude.
b) Cite a single rule my arguments ignore. Just one please - or retract the statement.
c) You've asserted and literally failed to prove that the Blood Tithe'd Thirster is unique in its arrival prior to the movement phase. As a matter of fact, this isn't true. This is why the Reserves argument is relevant - this "uniqueness" is core to your argument and trivial to debunk, but you'd rather ignore that.

So unless GW issue a rules errata, I'm going to continue to summon Blood Tithe Bloodthirsters and then charge them in the next turn. And no, this won't be HIWPI or a House Rule, but a perfectly permissible tactic fully compatible with the RAW as they stand.

I can't help it if you decide to cheat, but please don't present that as actual rules as they're written - because they're not. As I've (and others have) shown.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
Do you think it can move as well as change flight modes?

To change flight modes it must move.

So yes, that's what he is saying.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/07 20:46:04


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