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Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

HAHA or just pay the points to have the thing on turn 1
   
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Indiana

The main difference is that most units are not summoned before the movement phase, they are summoned or arrive after or during the movement phase(such as the psychic phase). That is where the difference is. Since it definitely deep strikes before the movement phase it is allowed to change modes.

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Fort Benning, Georgia

 AtoMaki wrote:
 luke1705 wrote:
The argument that Ignatius is making is that since you didn't arrive in the movement phase, you can still move. The wording for deep strike is:

"Units that come in by deep strike cannot move any more in the movement phase in which they arrive"


Doh... You know, you cannot Deep Strike in the Movement phase at all, because reserves arrive at the beginning of your turn (the same time you spend your BT points). Luckily, the quote is wrong:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further

The rule specifically states that Deep Striking units in fact arrive during the Movement phase.


Well, is the Bloodthirster arriving in the Movement Phase? The Daemonkin codex says it isn't. Therefore, you can't use that quote simply due to the word "during". It means that in order for the quoted rule to apply, the Movement Phase must have started. Which in this case it did not.

The difference here is in the absence of any indication that this Deep Strike is from Reserves. So the assertion that "Well all reserves come at the start of the turn and they aren't allowed to move so the Bloodthirster can't" is wrong because of the wording in the "Reserves" section.

Arriving from Reserve
...When Reserves arrive, pick one of your units and deploy it, MOVING it onto the table as described below...

Moving on From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's table edge.


This passage tells us that there are specific verbages used to describe this process. Arrives, is NOT the same as moving, and is also not the same as deploying. When Reserves arrive, they are forced to make their move immediately. Deep Striking Reserves also happen before the Movement, but because of the usage of "Reserves" in the rule, they must also make a move onto the board, regardless of what the Deep Strike rule itself says.

So let's look at Deep Strike, which our Bloodthirster does.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows (My note here: we do not roll for our Bloodthirster, so we do not follow this part of the rule and rolling for Reserves. Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase (which is necessary to have a Reserve)
-First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position...
-Next, the unit's remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact... (yada yada yada)
-Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain


There is no mention in the Deep Strike rule of moving, rather Deep Strike units usually move due to the requirement to do so in the "Reserves" section I quoted above. As such, arriving via Deep Strike does not in itself cause a unit to move. Rather arriving from Deep Strike Reserve does, which our Bloodthirster does not do.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 00:29:29


 
   
Made in se
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard






I dont see how its an issue when the danged thirster get to move.
He arrive by deepstrike, get shot down, go home to the warp.

Deepstriking BT was a bad idea in 4th edition codex, it was bad with 6th edition, and just because they have a new picture and design for the unit entry didnt make it good now.
Sure, you get it for techically no point cost, and if you want to use your really expencive center piece model for a single turn of failure, go ahead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 04:20:55


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All i know is that they're stronger than non-daemonkin mono-Khorne.

Think of it in this way: you'll be able to RELIABLY summon something decent like khornedogs or scullcannons. Oh, and S: D thirsters are awesome when you got a place to hide. Bloodletters are still pretty useless for stuff other than point grabbing and backfield deepstrike distraction but they at least got min size of 8 - not 10, so a tiny bit cheaper and fine for what they do - distraction and BT point generation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 05:04:50


 
   
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Indiana

I think that a lot of it is going to be down to the ability to generate bloodtide points reliably as well as their use.


Summoning in that skull cannon the turn before a big charge, etc. Having the unit of blood crushers come in with their free upgrades so that everything else can safe deep strike in that turn. Just the ability to precision land so many daemon units is quite impressive.

also no one does MSU like this book does, its quite impressive, especially when you consider that a lot of the units will have invuls or jink saves as well as fearless you can just flood the board with units that are still dangerous in assault to most things and watch your opponents try to deal with it while winning the objective game. I think a lot of it will be down to maximizing the daemon parts where you are not required to pay for the mark as often, or basically keep the costs down on the units

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/31 06:46:13


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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Battleship Captain




Exactly. Throwing out bloodthirsters strikes me as a waste anyway; skullcannons and bloodletter packs come cheaper and easier.

Use cultists and bloodletters to snaffle tactical objectives whilst the heavy mob - soulgrinders, maulerfiends, etc, keep the enemy going "AAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!" and being too busy to poke his nose out of his deployment zone.

Warp Talons (surprisingly) might actually work quite well too against some armies - with the icon/daemon of khorne combination they can actually consider using warpflame strike properly - at least, against low initiative shooty armies like necrons - and having both the Mark of Khorne and Daemon of Khorne makes them scary in the amount of damage they can hand out.

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A bit late to the party but..
In the BRB on the section of Start and End of a Turn it says..
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase.

And then, under the BftBG rule in the codex it says...
[...] The controlling player can choose to expend Blood Tithe points at the start of any of his turns.

Ok, so that happens before start of movement phase.
And then in the codex at the end of the blood tithe rule...
[...] Designer’s Note: When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike

Note the >immediately< here.
And back in the BRB it is mentioned under FMC deployment:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode. [...]

And we've already established that our DS happens before the movement phase.
And again, under FMC by Flight Modes:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. [...]

Hmm.. "At the start of it's move"
So before the movement phase, it's in swooping and we now get to change to gliding if we so desire? Let's have a look at the DS rule:
[...] In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one. [...]

This is where it gets messed up, since they are not arriving during the movement phase. This is the only phrase preventing the model from moving in the ensuing movement phase.

This entire chain of rules has been screwed up by GW, it is incredibly unclear what their original intention was and if you follow it by the letter, you could move freely in the same turn as you deep struck this summoned unit. Did I miss anything?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/31 13:54:23


 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Nightplague wrote:
This entire chain of rules has been screwed up by GW, it is incredibly unclear what their original intention was and if you follow it by the letter, you could move freely in the same turn as you deep struck this summoned unit. Did I miss anything?


One thing: this whole "at the start of your turn" thing happens before you resolve your Movement phase, not before your actual Movement phase. There is no phase before the Movement phase, so when your Turn starts, you are already in the Movement phase, you just can't start resolving it until you work out the "at the start of your turn" stuff.

Otherwise, since all Reserves (not just the Blood Tithe summoning) arrive at the start of your turn, any unit arriving from Reserves should be able to move in the following Movement phase.

The problem with Deep Strike Reserves moving is that the Deep Strike special rule replaces the normal Reserve rules for unit arrival. A Deep Striking unit doesn't move, it is placed (obviously).

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Texarkana TX

its not cheese, but putting 8 bloodletters with a champ and icon in a landraider with my homeboy KHARN is pretty awesome. be sure to get your land raider from the CSM codex so you can buy dozerblades and dirge casters

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Indiana

 AtoMaki wrote:
Nightplague wrote:
This entire chain of rules has been screwed up by GW, it is incredibly unclear what their original intention was and if you follow it by the letter, you could move freely in the same turn as you deep struck this summoned unit. Did I miss anything?


One thing: this whole "at the start of your turn" thing happens before you resolve your Movement phase, not before your actual Movement phase. There is no phase before the Movement phase, so when your Turn starts, you are already in the Movement phase, you just can't start resolving it until you work out the "at the start of your turn" stuff.

Otherwise, since all Reserves (not just the Blood Tithe summoning) arrive at the start of your turn, any unit arriving from Reserves should be able to move in the following Movement phase.

The problem with Deep Strike Reserves moving is that the Deep Strike special rule replaces the normal Reserve rules for unit arrival. A Deep Striking unit doesn't move, it is placed (obviously).


The 7th edition rule book directly says there is a start of the turn phase before the movement phase.......

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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 Leth wrote:
 AtoMaki wrote:
Nightplague wrote:
This entire chain of rules has been screwed up by GW, it is incredibly unclear what their original intention was and if you follow it by the letter, you could move freely in the same turn as you deep struck this summoned unit. Did I miss anything?


One thing: this whole "at the start of your turn" thing happens before you resolve your Movement phase, not before your actual Movement phase. There is no phase before the Movement phase, so when your Turn starts, you are already in the Movement phase, you just can't start resolving it until you work out the "at the start of your turn" stuff.

Otherwise, since all Reserves (not just the Blood Tithe summoning) arrive at the start of your turn, any unit arriving from Reserves should be able to move in the following Movement phase.

The problem with Deep Strike Reserves moving is that the Deep Strike special rule replaces the normal Reserve rules for unit arrival. A Deep Striking unit doesn't move, it is placed (obviously).


The 7th edition rule book directly says there is a start of the turn phase before the movement phase.......


Really, it doesn't. It only shows it as a different "phase" in the turn order summary for obvious reasons (to reflect the actual sequence).

It is right there, in the beginning:
During his turn, a player can usually move and fight once with each of his units. For convenience and flow of game play, we divide a player’s turn into four main phases: Movement, Psychic, Shooting and Assault.

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Fort Benning, Georgia

 AtoMaki wrote:
 Leth wrote:
 AtoMaki wrote:
Nightplague wrote:
This entire chain of rules has been screwed up by GW, it is incredibly unclear what their original intention was and if you follow it by the letter, you could move freely in the same turn as you deep struck this summoned unit. Did I miss anything?


One thing: this whole "at the start of your turn" thing happens before you resolve your Movement phase, not before your actual Movement phase. There is no phase before the Movement phase, so when your Turn starts, you are already in the Movement phase, you just can't start resolving it until you work out the "at the start of your turn" stuff.

Otherwise, since all Reserves (not just the Blood Tithe summoning) arrive at the start of your turn, any unit arriving from Reserves should be able to move in the following Movement phase.

The problem with Deep Strike Reserves moving is that the Deep Strike special rule replaces the normal Reserve rules for unit arrival. A Deep Striking unit doesn't move, it is placed (obviously).


The 7th edition rule book directly says there is a start of the turn phase before the movement phase.......


Really, it doesn't. It only shows it as a different "phase" in the turn order summary for obvious reasons (to reflect the actual sequence).

It is right there, in the beginning:
During his turn, a player can usually move and fight once with each of his units. For convenience and flow of game play, we divide a player’s turn into four main phases: Movement, Psychic, Shooting and Assault.


This is wrong. The Rulebook clearly says that there are 6 parts to the turn:
1. start of the turn
2. movement phase
3. psychic phase
4. shooting phase
5. assault phase
6. the end of your turn

Things can happen in any of these parts as they say. To ignore that part of the sequencing of events is ignoring the entire argument unfairly.

Deep Striking is different from Deep Striking Reserves. It is the Reserves part of that rule that forces a model to actual begin its movement phase. Deep Striking doesn't actually count as a move- it's a deployment. Deep Striking from Reserve is a move because Reserves says so. The Bloodthirster is not coming in from Reserve so does not follow that part of the rules that makes Deep Striking a move.
   
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 Ignatius wrote:

This is wrong. The Rulebook clearly says that there are 6 parts to the turn:
1. start of the turn
2. movement phase
3. psychic phase
4. shooting phase
5. assault phase
6. the end of your turn
Things can happen in any of these parts as they say. To ignore that part of the sequencing of events is ignoring the entire argument unfairly.


Check my last quote, it is right from the rulebook, and it says that there are only four parts . The sequencing doesn't have anything to do with how many phases the game has, only that there are stuff you must do before you can actually start your phase. That's cool. It doesn't contradict any rule, neither the established phase structure, neither the turn sequence. It is like how you have two sub-phases in the Assault phase.

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Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

I was looking for some Khorne Daemonkin Tactics and list-building, but i find the same thread as in YMDC?

So MSU seems like the only way? Sounds like that's the current meta everywhere though?

DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
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Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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 BlackTalos wrote:
I was looking for some Khorne Daemonkin Tactics and list-building, but i find the same thread as in YMDC?

So MSU seems like the only way? Sounds like that's the current meta everywhere though?


Yeah I agree, getting really sick of hearing about how I can or can't deepstrike this or that. Fine. We get it. It's poorly written. There are more units and rules in the codex though. Let's talk about those.

It depends. If you are going for the Blood Host detachment then yeah, MSU seems to be your best bet. And that is just so you can abuse the heck out of the Blood Tithe table. Something I'm noticing is that while yes all your units are more expensive now, the potential from the Blood Tithe bonuses really boosts their damage potential and survivability. If it looks like you are gonna be taking lots of shots? FNP. going to be assaulting? Give everyone an extra attack, furious charge, and rage. Your models will be hitting like a truck.

One of my favorite things about this codex is that I get Blood Tithe points from my rhino's dying. Finally I feel like there's more of a reason to take them other than to give my opponent First Blood.

It's really hard for me to say how well this codex will or won't do just because for so long all list building has really come down to min/max. These new formation based armies kinda break that though. Right now obviously it's going to be tough, but once more armies are pushed towards this formation base I think we will really see how the balance is changing.

Lastly, something that recently occurred to me is that WOW possessed hit crazy hard now. With mark and daemon of khorne you're going to be getting something like 40 attacks on the charge with str 6, and thats not even taking their mutations into consideration. Sure they are still just as hard to get into combat, but I feel like their new damage potential helps to justify spending the points to get them there now.

EDIT: Here's a thought, maybe just let everyone know from now on what ruling you and your gaming group have as far as this whole "can or can't I change flight modes out of being summoned?" debate. That way there is much less unnecessary bloat in the thread and we can keep the rules debates to YMDC. Maybe you do or don't agree with whatever the ruling is, but at least we can avoid two pages of debates on something that's not helping the OP at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 17:07:35


 
   
Made in us
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Fort Benning, Georgia

 AtoMaki wrote:
 Ignatius wrote:

This is wrong. The Rulebook clearly says that there are 6 parts to the turn:
1. start of the turn
2. movement phase
3. psychic phase
4. shooting phase
5. assault phase
6. the end of your turn
Things can happen in any of these parts as they say. To ignore that part of the sequencing of events is ignoring the entire argument unfairly.


Check my last quote, it is right from the rulebook, and it says that there are only four parts . The sequencing doesn't have anything to do with how many phases the game has, only that there are stuff you must do before you can actually start your phase. That's cool. It doesn't contradict any rule, neither the established phase structure, neither the turn sequence. It is like how you have two sub-phases in the Assault phase.



Right, but then there is a paragraph following it called "The Start and End of a Turn" where "...an action or event happans 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement Phase." So whether or not there is a phase specifically called it, there are things that happens before the Movement Phase that are entirely separate from that phase. There are then rules that come into play due to this, that could not be resolved if we assumed the turn begins with the Movement Phase.

And although I think this thread was here before the YMDC one (could be wrong) I agree that we should move everything over to that one.

Regardless, I will be making heavy use of the Gorepack formation for those Flesh Hounds. Is there any reason to use Bloodcrushers over Flesh Hounds for a Juggerlord to attach to?
   
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Auburndale FL

There are also plenty of rules that happen at the start of the movement phase. Which means there is a direct difference between start of turn and start of the movement phase.

 
   
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Canada

Bloodcrushers are terrible no matter how you try to make them work. They got peppered with nerfs to make them worse being carried into 6th Edition. For one they are now susceptible to ID since they along with everything else in the Codex no longer has EW.

They had their T dropped and are easily dispatched by battle cannon / krak missiles and pretty much anything str 8. They simply arent as valuable. 3 Wounds a piece means for every Krak Missile or str 8 wound you take you're screwed trying to rely on a 5++ and lose out on 3 wounds.

Sure Hounds dont have access to AP2 at Initiative because of the Bloodhunters capability of taking an Axe of Khorne, but thats what Heralds are for anyways.

And simply put, Its aways better to have more bodies. Look out sirs, 2w disposable Hounds are just amazing.

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OK

Having the unit of blood crushers come in with their free upgrades so that everything else can safe deep strike in that turn. Just the ability to precision land so many daemon units is quite impressive.


Summoned units in this codex do not get free upgrades.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I was looking for some Khorne Daemonkin Tactics and list-building, but i find the same thread as in YMDC?

So MSU seems like the only way? Sounds like that's the current meta everywhere though?


The reason is that this is an argument over something pretty huge in the book. If bloodthirsters are actually useful, it will go a long way towards making the codex much better.

Personally, I think skull cannons/flesh hounds will be the best summoning, but summoning a bloodthirster can turn the tide in a hail mary approach if you are in dire need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, does anybody know if it's clear whether or not the second buff produced by the Slaughtercult affects all of the other detachments "branched off" of the Slaughtercult. I realize it definitely would not affect another CAD or Allied detachment, but if it doesn't affect the detachments built off of it it would be pretty useless, especially since FnP is likely to be your second "free" buff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 17:45:20




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 herpguy wrote:
Having the unit of blood crushers come in with their free upgrades so that everything else can safe deep strike in that turn. Just the ability to precision land so many daemon units is quite impressive.


Summoned units in this codex do not get free upgrades.


Yes they do... in fact that get a banner of blood, so better than normal summoning.

 herpguy wrote:
Having the unit of blood crushers come in with their free upgrades so that everything else can safe deep strike in that turn. Just the ability to precision land so many daemon units is quite impressive.

Also, does anybody know if it's clear whether or not the second buff produced by the Slaughtercult affects all of the other detachments "branched off" of the Slaughtercult. I realize it definitely would not affect another CAD or Allied detachment, but if it doesn't affect the detachments built off of it it would be pretty useless, especially since FnP is likely to be your second "free" buff.


The slaughtercult bonus is for the slaughtercult formation only. It won't effect other formations in the Blood host. This is dissapointing.



Crushers are alright. Decent to summon, but would choose hounds first. I guess the advantage is the banner of blood for reliable charges, and they look cooler alongside a juggerlord.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 18:40:08


DFTT 
   
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OK

Oops guessed I missed the upgrades part. I need to go look at that later.

Wow so that makes that buff pretty useless. You can only give your flesh hounds FnP if you don't summon (unless you don't run slaughtercult).



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I would probably go FNP every turn it was possible, unless there was a real advantage to do otherwise.

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OK

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I would probably go FNP every turn it was possible, unless there was a real advantage to do otherwise.


Yeah same. It just leaves the question of if it is worth it to pay a 150 pt possessed tax for 1 blood point every turn.



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So without Daemonic Instability, can non-Daemons join Daemons in this book? I don't have a copy yet.
   
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Requizen wrote:
So without Daemonic Instability, can non-Daemons join Daemons in this book? I don't have a copy yet.

Correct and vice versa

But as a result, Codex: Daemons can not join the daemons from KhorneKin and viceversa

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 23:59:08


 
   
Made in us
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 herpguy wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
I would probably go FNP every turn it was possible, unless there was a real advantage to do otherwise.


Yeah same. It just leaves the question of if it is worth it to pay a 150 pt possessed tax for 1 blood point every turn.


The difference is that possessed are not complete garbage anymore. They got a pretty substantial upgrade. Gaining str 6 on the charge is no laughing, especially when its 20 of them for a 5 man unit. And thats before you roll on their table. Toss these boys in a rhino, and I think you are alright.


Honestly, I feel this book is best served building off the slaughtercult with gorepack support and war engine support. Load up the 8 man units of berserkers or khorne marines into rhinos toss a couple of min squads of cultists and 2 man teams of spawn. Sprinkle in a gorepack with hounds. And then spam maulerfiends and soulgrinders.

Thats a nice, and very aggressive army. And a lot of armor rushing at your opponent!
   
 
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