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There is a thread in General discussing the next potential update to the Tau codex. Where that is intended to be more exploratory about what people want or expect, I felt like having a discussion on what changes might be a nice patch.

The Riptide is a discussion all its own, so I'm ignoring it for the purpose of this thread.

The target for balancing here is at the Demicompany level, not the CentStar/Knights level.

The changes are to both make Tau more balanced (internal and external) and to make the army more interesting.

These ideas are quite rough and will obviously require iteration, but what do you think?
Changes:

Wargear:

Signature Systems
-One per model, max
-Gauntlet and Airburst are now standard-issue

Rail Weaponry:
-Ordinance

Pulse Carbine:
Alternate profile of shooting a Grenade (photon or, if equipped, Haywire) at the same range (18"). Counts as throwing a grenade (one shot per unit)

Broadside Suit:
-T5 3+ instead of T4 2+

Drone Controller:
-Controlled Drones get +1 BS, and are affected by any of the following on the controlling model: Counter fire Defense, Skyfire, Interceptor, Precision

Marker lights:
-Scour - Remove a ML, reduce cover by 1
-Precision - Remove a ML, improve Precision on a *model* by 1
-Fire Control - Remove a ML from both the shooting unit's target and another target. The unit gets Split Fire, targeting the second unit.

HQ:
Commander must select suit:
-Crisis : standard
-- 4 hardpoints
-Stealth : +30 points
-- 3 hardpoints
-- Cannot join Suits other than Crisis
-Broadside +30
-- 3 Hard points
-- TL doesn't cost a Hardpoint
-- Allows Broadside weapons

Troops:
Fire Warriors:
Allow up to 1 per 6 to take an Ion Rifle.
FW Shas'ui ML/TL: a 5 ponits on top of the Shas'ui cost.
May take 1 ML per 3 Fire Warriors at 3ppm

FA:
Pathfinders
-10ppm
-May upgrade any Pathfinder to Marksman (adds Precision), 5ppm
-May upgrade any Pathfinder to Sharpshooter (BS4, Precision), 10ppm

Stealth Suits
-25 ppm

Elites:
Crisis Team
-Second choice of any given weapon is +5 points


Heavy Support:
Broadsides:
-SMS - +5ppm
-Missile Drones - +3ppm


Dedicated Transport:
-70 points

I gotta disagree with alot here but there are some gems.

I agree that anything from the previous codexes that was experimental should now be standard issue and allow multiples.
Onagar gauntlet
ABFP
CIB
Fix experimental stuff that can break.
Pulse Bomb Generator - no longer shorts out
Tau codex gets fusion blades for Shadowsun- no longer short out

Pulse Carbine:
Alternate profile of shooting a Grenade (photon or, if equipped, Haywire) at the same range (18"). - No - proton grenades are defensive and have no real shooting use. Haywire fine as is. Tau don't need more hate.

Broadside Suit:
-T5 3+ instead of T4 2+ - No
Actually T5, 2+ makes more sense if you look at armor progression. Riptide - T6 2+, Broad - T5 2+, CS - T4 3+, SS T3 3+, FW armor, 4+, pathfinder armor 5+

Drone Controller:
-Controlled Drones get +1 BS, and are affected by any of the following on the controlling model: Counter fire Defense, Skyfire, Interceptor, Precision etc...- 100% agree - Would also think that all vehicles with drones should have drone controllers

Marker lights: - leave as is

HQ:
Commander must select suit: - I like this but not sure about your hardpoint limitations and point costs
Troops:
Fire Warriors: Allow up to 1 per 6 to take an Ion Rifle. - i like this
FA:
Pathfinders - Should be troops, also a marksman and sharpshooter are the same thing. Just remove the marksman option
-May upgrade any Pathfinder to Sharpshooter (BS4, Precision), 10ppm
Stealth Suits - keep as elite, i've made suggestions below...
Elites:
Crisis Team
-Second choice of any given weapon is +5 points - thats broken
Heavy Support:
Broadsides: - leave as is

Dedicated Transport: - good add.
-70 points

Why would you ever want one BS4 Pathfinder with Precision Shot when you could get two regular Pathfinders for the same price?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naaris wrote:

Sniper drone team - remove from codex

...Why?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why would you ever want one BS4 Pathfinder with Precision Shot when you could get two regular Pathfinders for the same price?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naaris wrote:

Sniper drone team - remove from codex

...Why?

Yeah, why remove the sniper team?

If the next codex follows the current trend they will remove a ton of standard options that you will only get back in new formations.

I'm fine with a plan that removes the necessity of markerlights. I would love an alien auxiliary though that can actually hold out in cc. Either boost Kroot (dodge save in cc?) or CC battlesuits.

 crazyK wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why would you ever want one BS4 Pathfinder with Precision Shot when you could get two regular Pathfinders for the same price?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naaris wrote:

Sniper drone team - remove from codex

...Why?

Yeah, why remove the sniper team?

If the next codex follows the current trend they will remove a ton of standard options that you will only get back in new formations.

I'm fine with a plan that removes the necessity of markerlights. I would love an alien auxiliary though that can actually hold out in cc. Either boost Kroot (dodge save in cc?) or CC battlesuits.

Because I am suggesting that to make stealth teams potentially more viable or at least to see them on the battlefield that you could upgrade the team to a:
Sniper Stealth Suit unit and replace weapons with rail sniper rifles.

This way you bring back the sniper rail rifles from previous editions and you give the stealth teams a new dynamic that fits their unit type.
especially if you give them my revised idea for sniper rifles - Add Rail Sniper rifles - str 6, ap2, fleshbane, lance

The ideas were very rough.

Is Lance really better choice for Rail than Ordinance?

Lance portrays a weapon ignoring the heaviest parts of armor for whatever reason, tearing apart AV14 like it were AV12. But has no benefit against medium or light vehicles.

Ordinance represents a more forcefully directed weapon that destroys everything in its path. Not only is it more likely to hurt heavy armor, but also light/medium armor are even more likely to get penned.

It seems, to me, Ordinance is more in line with Rail than Lance.

Also, I could see Broadsides keeping their 2+ or being t5, but not both. Broadsides are the same tech as Crisis Suits, but built in a much more sturdy manner. The same weapons will be able to damage it, but the Broadside is beefier, so it takes more to drop it. That says Toughness more than Armor Save to me. Works either way, it was just an idea.

Rail Rifles would be a great option for StealthSuits, I think. Fitting, but costed appropriately, not broken.

Also, a drone controller on vehicles could be interesting. Would only affect the embarked drones, but could be fun.

The 'Marksmen' was so you could give Precision - and potentially BS4 - to the Pathfinder special weapons. Haven't really iterated on it, though. Might not be a good idea even. But 10ppm would be far too much.

Crisis Suits and double weapons - having 2x the same weapon is almost always a no-brainer. By costing base price +5, you might need to review taking a different weapon instead of 2x the same.

For experimental gear, I feel like some may have become standard issue, but only a few. Just moving all doesn't feel right.

For Pulse Carbines, yeah, not my finest idea. I was thinking allowing a Blind test with them might actually give Carbine FW a role.

Sniper drones - please don't nuke them!

Bharring wrote:
The ideas were very rough.

Is Lance really better choice for Rail than Ordinance?

Lance portrays a weapon ignoring the heaviest parts of armor for whatever reason, tearing apart AV14 like it were AV12. But has no benefit against medium or light vehicles.

Ordinance represents a more forcefully directed weapon that destroys everything in its path. Not only is it more likely to hurt heavy armor, but also light/medium armor are even more likely to get penned.

It seems, to me, Ordinance is more in line with Rail than Lance.

Also, I could see Broadsides keeping their 2+ or being t5, but not both. Broadsides are the same tech as Crisis Suits, but built in a much more sturdy manner. The same weapons will be able to damage it, but the Broadside is beefier, so it takes more to drop it. That says Toughness more than Armor Save to me. Works either way, it was just an idea.

Rail Rifles would be a great option for StealthSuits, I think. Fitting, but costed appropriately, not broken.

Also, a drone controller on vehicles could be interesting. Would only affect the embarked drones, but could be fun.

The 'Marksmen' was so you could give Precision - and potentially BS4 - to the Pathfinder special weapons. Haven't really iterated on it, though. Might not be a good idea even. But 10ppm would be far too much.

Crisis Suits and double weapons - having 2x the same weapon is almost always a no-brainer. By costing base price +5, you might need to review taking a different weapon instead of 2x the same.

For experimental gear, I feel like some may have become standard issue, but only a few. Just moving all doesn't feel right.

For Pulse Carbines, yeah, not my finest idea. I was thinking allowing a Blind test with them might actually give Carbine FW a role.

Sniper drones - please don't nuke them!

I think of rail weapons as powerful weapons that punch through any armor, and keep going, through the vehicle, through the squad of troops behind that vehicle, through the building behind them etc... until the projectile inertia drops off and it crashes.
So i see them a a leveler of all armor.
to me Ordinance is big ass howitzer of a gun that make a huge explosion.
I don't think railguns should have blast radius. Hell i could see beam rules added to them but that each unit the shot passes through it str and ap. - this indicates the projectile slowing down

Their bigger and more heavily armored and armed so T5 and 2+ works - maybe up their price by 5pts

I love the idea of deep striking stealth teams with rail rifles. makes me think of paratroopers or rangers with an M20 recoilless rifle.

I've never understood why advanced AI drones would have poorer aim than the manned guns of a vehicle.

"I've never understood why advanced AI drones would have poorer aim than the manned guns of a vehicle. "

Because Grimdark. Or something. The same reason they were questioning a computer hitting a TWO METER immobile target in Star Wars IV.

crazyK wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why would you ever want one BS4 Pathfinder with Precision Shot when you could get two regular Pathfinders for the same price?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naaris wrote:

Sniper drone team - remove from codex

...Why?

Yeah, why remove the sniper team?

If the next codex follows the current trend they will remove a ton of standard options that you will only get back in new formations.

I'm fine with a plan that removes the necessity of markerlights. I would love an alien auxiliary though that can actually hold out in cc. Either boost Kroot (dodge save in cc?) or CC battlesuits.

Also, Primary is better than ordinance in that there are no movement penalties and you Roll two dice to penetrate, pick highest.

Naaris wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The ideas were very rough.

Is Lance really better choice for Rail than Ordinance?

Lance portrays a weapon ignoring the heaviest parts of armor for whatever reason, tearing apart AV14 like it were AV12. But has no benefit against medium or light vehicles.

Ordinance represents a more forcefully directed weapon that destroys everything in its path. Not only is it more likely to hurt heavy armor, but also light/medium armor are even more likely to get penned.

It seems, to me, Ordinance is more in line with Rail than Lance.

Also, I could see Broadsides keeping their 2+ or being t5, but not both. Broadsides are the same tech as Crisis Suits, but built in a much more sturdy manner. The same weapons will be able to damage it, but the Broadside is beefier, so it takes more to drop it. That says Toughness more than Armor Save to me. Works either way, it was just an idea.

Rail Rifles would be a great option for StealthSuits, I think. Fitting, but costed appropriately, not broken.

Also, a drone controller on vehicles could be interesting. Would only affect the embarked drones, but could be fun.

The 'Marksmen' was so you could give Precision - and potentially BS4 - to the Pathfinder special weapons. Haven't really iterated on it, though. Might not be a good idea even. But 10ppm would be far too much.

Crisis Suits and double weapons - having 2x the same weapon is almost always a no-brainer. By costing base price +5, you might need to review taking a different weapon instead of 2x the same.

For experimental gear, I feel like some may have become standard issue, but only a few. Just moving all doesn't feel right.

For Pulse Carbines, yeah, not my finest idea. I was thinking allowing a Blind test with them might actually give Carbine FW a role.

Sniper drones - please don't nuke them!

I think of rail weapons as powerful weapons that punch through any armor, and keep going, through the vehicle, through the squad of troops behind that vehicle, through the building behind them etc... until the projectile inertia drops off and it crashes.
So i see them a a leveler of all armor.

Which makes no sense at all. A weapon that overpenetrates like that would deal less damage than one that imparted all of its kinetic energy in the target it's supposed to hit.

Its not some quasi-magical 'ignore your armor' weapon, its a gakton of energy in a small area. Like a smaller weapon, but better.

Lance seems to be a bit more than that.

Even with the amounts of energy we're talking about, with Lance, it'll probably pen a Predator, and it'll probably pen a Chimera (head on). With Ordinance, it'll probably+ pen a Pred, and almost certainly pen a Chimera.

Ordinance needn't be a radial explosion. I think it really think it fits the Railgun perfectly.

As for Primary Weapon vs Ordinance, (1), Primary Weapon in multiples actually rolls slower than Ordinance (one at a time vs. Reroll the fails), and (2) no mobility on foot/snapfire others on vehicles, I think is appropriate.

A Broadside that wants to reposition won't be bringing their Heavy Rail Rifles to bear (plasma guns are there for that!). Rail Pathfinders shouldn't be able to snapshot those things - you can't fire-from-thr-hip a weapon twice as long as you are tall! And a Hammerhead, focusing on landing its Railgun, won't have great accuracy from its other weapons as the Railgun fires.

Primary Weapon, IMO, is a bad idea for Rail.

Bharring wrote:
Its not some quasi-magical 'ignore your armor' weapon, its a gakton of energy in a small area. Like a smaller weapon, but better.

Lance seems to be a bit more than that.

Even with the amounts of energy we're talking about, with Lance, it'll probably pen a Predator, and it'll probably pen a Chimera (head on). With Ordinance, it'll probably+ pen a Pred, and almost certainly pen a Chimera.

Ordinance needn't be a radial explosion. I think it really think it fits the Railgun perfectly.

As for Primary Weapon vs Ordinance, (1), Primary Weapon in multiples actually rolls slower than Ordinance (one at a time vs. Reroll the fails), and (2) no mobility on foot/snapfire others on vehicles, I think is appropriate.

A Broadside that wants to reposition won't be bringing their Heavy Rail Rifles to bear (plasma guns are there for that!). Rail Pathfinders shouldn't be able to snapshot those things - you can't fire-from-thr-hip a weapon twice as long as you are tall! And a Hammerhead, focusing on landing its Railgun, won't have great accuracy from its other weapons as the Railgun fires.

Primary Weapon, IMO, is a bad idea for Rail.

Just to reiterate - My suggestions are -

Only Railguns should be primary weapons - str10 ap1 lance, fleshbane - These would be on Hammerheads. So its 1 shot at BS4/Str 10/AP 1 - Primary Weapon, Lance, Fleshbane
With Longstrike it would be BS5 with Tankhunters - Tankhunters(Re-rolls failed AP rolls against vehicles and can re-roll glancing hits) and Primary weapon(Roll two dice to penetrate, pick highest) synergize well
This makes the hammerhead the elite vehicle killer its supposed to be. A points increase would make sense here with these added rules. Hammerheads with long strike should cost 250pts without other wargear since he'll be most likely 1 shotting av14. Sans Longstrike I would say 200pts.

Heavy Rail Rifles should be Str 8, ap 1 lance, fleshbane, Heavy 1 - These are for Broadsides only - So like current gun they would be Twin-linked and heavy. Broadsides are not relentless so they still have those penalties

Remove Rail Rifles - These are gone as choices for pathfinders - fleshbane on troop weapons are too strong

Add Rail Sniper Rifles - str 6, ap 2, lance, fleshbane - Stealth Suits only - Like the existing rail rifle, its rapid fire, due to being sniper weapon you get precision shots on a 6.

Martel732 wrote:
"I've never understood why advanced AI drones would have poorer aim than the manned guns of a vehicle. "

Because Grimdark. Or something. The same reason they were questioning a computer hitting a TWO METER immobile target in Star Wars IV.

Well, in the defense of Star Wars, the conditions necessary were actually pretty tight- they needed to hit a 2-meter immobile target, but they couldn't dive straight at it, and had to approach almost perfectly perpendicular in order to not die to all the defensive batteries. Considering that the missiles had to make a turn that required around 90,000 Gs of acceleration in order to hit said target... I'd be questioning the ability of anything to hit such a target too.

Naaris wrote:
Just to reiterate - My suggestions are -

Only Railguns should be primary weapons - str10 ap1 lance, fleshbane - These would be on Hammerheads. So its 1 shot at BS4/Str 10/AP 1 - Primary Weapon, Lance, Fleshbane
With Longstrike it would be BS5 with Tankhunters - Tankhunters(Re-rolls failed AP rolls against vehicles and can re-roll glancing hits) and Primary weapon(Roll two dice to penetrate, pick highest) synergize well
This makes the hammerhead the elite vehicle killer its supposed to be. A points increase would make sense here with these added rules. Hammerheads with long strike should cost 250pts without other wargear since he'll be most likely 1 shotting av14. Sans Longstrike I would say 200pts.

Heavy Rail Rifles should be Str 8, ap 1 lance, fleshbane, Heavy 1 - These are for Broadsides only - So like current gun they would be Twin-linked and heavy. Broadsides are not relentless so they still have those penalties

Remove Rail Rifles - These are gone as choices for pathfinders - fleshbane on troop weapons are too strong

Add Rail Sniper Rifles - str 6, ap 2, lance, fleshbane - Stealth Suits only - Like the existing rail rifle, its rapid fire, due to being sniper weapon you get precision shots on a 6.

I'm not seeing the point of Fleshbane when the HH Railgun will wound anything in the game on 2+ anyways (AFAIK there are no T9/T10 models in the game); I'm also not seeing it for HRRs either- again, there's maybe three models in the entire game that it would wound on less than 2+; off the top of my head I can think of only the Wraithlord/WK and the C'tan Shards- and Wraithlords are not particularly scary, while WKs are an entirely separate balance item TBH, and C'tan Shards are relying on a 4++, and are also lacking in mobility.

I'm also not seeing why the current Rail Rifles have to be removed in favor of these "Rail Sniper Rifles", when the former has, in fact, been part of the fluff for a while now. It doesn't make much sense that it would suddenly be removed- particularly when;

-S6 and Lance is still gakky- you're not going to be doing anything to AV12, let alone AV13+
-S6/AP2 is worse than S6/AP1; the strength of the current Rail Rifle is that it's good at killing elite infantry models; also, it would need to have either the Sniper rule (only 4+, rather than the 2+ of Fleshbane) in order to get Precision Shots, or it would need to explicitly say that it has it.
-Fleshbane again doesn't make much sense- most of the things that you'll want to point the Rail Rifle at are being wounded on 2+ anyways.

I'm also not understanding why Rail weapons have to have Lance; the Lance rule is explicitly described as a high efficiency 'boring' laser effect. Primary weapon or Ordnance are much better approximations of the Railgun's effects in the case of the HH's Railgun and the HRR. Oh, and just because a gun is Ordnance doesn't mean it's also a blast of some kind- the two rules are actually separate, it's just that most of the Ordnance weapons currently in the game are also Blasts of some kind.

Fleshbane typically reflects an effect that isn't tied to the strength of a weapon. Witchblades don't hit hard, but use psykic shenanigans to hurt anyone it touches. Black Mace is cursed. Things like that. They aren't simply 'super strong'.

A Railgun is more akin to an SM Orbital Bombardment than a witchblade, obviously. Only the Bombardment is a capital ship directing a substantial naval-scale battery upon the location, whereas the Railgun is a single shot of a weapon that would equal the combined hit of all those naval weapons at any given point. So, mostly the same profile. Except that the Bombardment is over a much, much larger area, so its large blast, whereas a Railgun is a single shot with a precisely aimed weapon. Therefore, S10 Ordinance AP1 is "right".

Adding some sort of Rail or Plasma to Stealth Suits could be cool. But why does it need to be some new special snowflake? Why not just allow more weapon options (at 1 per 3 still, probably), with a possible addition of Rail Rifle? (Does Relentless affect Ordinance?)

As for Precision, there is already a wargear option for that (although it might be interesting to consider adding a Precision option to Marker light uses).

Also, Primary Weapon seems... artificial on an infantry model, even one in a battlesuit.

"Well, in the defense of Star Wars, the conditions necessary were actually pretty tight- they needed to hit a 2-meter immobile target, but they couldn't dive straight at it, and had to approach almost perfectly perpendicular in order to not die to all the defensive batteries. Considering that the missiles had to make a turn that required around 90,000 Gs of acceleration in order to hit said target... I'd be questioning the ability of anything to hit such a target too. "

There is no defense for Star Wars. With today's technology, someone could have remoted a suicide drone down the hole and evaded EVERYTHING.

The defensive batteries were also manually fired and targeted, ala WWII. They could have approached from any direction and been fine. People suck at hitting things moving that fast. Especially with non-guided hyphen lasers.

The point is that it, along with 40K is an example, of "retro-future" which flies in the face of all technology history. Tau should never miss with their suits or vehicles, because WE rarely miss in the year 2015. That's the reality of modern warfare and high-end computing. But this is GW.

Bharring wrote:
Fleshbane typically reflects an effect that isn't tied to the strength of a weapon. Witchblades don't hit hard, but use psykic shenanigans to hurt anyone it touches. Black Mace is cursed. Things like that. They aren't simply 'super strong'.

A Railgun is more akin to an SM Orbital Bombardment than a witchblade, obviously. Only the Bombardment is a capital ship directing a substantial naval-scale battery upon the location, whereas the Railgun is a single shot of a weapon that would equal the combined hit of all those naval weapons at any given point. So, mostly the same profile. Except that the Bombardment is over a much, much larger area, so its large blast, whereas a Railgun is a single shot with a precisely aimed weapon. Therefore, S10 Ordinance AP1 is "right".

Adding some sort of Rail or Plasma to Stealth Suits could be cool. But why does it need to be some new special snowflake? Why not just allow more weapon options (at 1 per 3 still, probably), with a possible addition of Rail Rifle? (Does Relentless affect Ordinance?)

As for Precision, there is already a wargear option for that (although it might be interesting to consider adding a Precision option to Marker light uses).

Also, Primary Weapon seems... artificial on an infantry model, even one in a battlesuit.

Well, the way I see is that Rail Rifles shouldn't be Ordnance, but should remain as Rapid Fire- they're really intended to be fairly lightweight weapons, and realistically they aren't that much bigger than a Pulse Rifle, which seems to be easily carried by Fire Warriors. Also, I wasn't aware that the Tau had a wargear option to get Precision Shots.

I also second that Stealth Suits getting access to more weapon options would be awesome too. In fact, that might actually be a good way to help them overcome the "not a Crisis suit/Riptide" problem. I mean, with 'Tides that's an entire other issue to work on, but Crisis suits seem like they're in a good place, while Stealth Suits... seem like "not so much".

Perhaps also allow Stealth Suits to replace all their Burst Cannons with Longshot Pulse Rifles, for another Sniper unit option for the Tau?