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 Grey Templar wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Filch wrote:
...I think this poll is flawed because you have superior tau and eldar tech compared to inferior imperium of man tech.

And yet the IoM ''inferior'' tech is leading.

Does stealth suit actually offer the same stuff as PA + invisibility, or is it just protection?

Its roughly comparable to PA in protection due to being a thicker layer of inferior material.

Thats why Tau suits have 3+ saves, they've basically layered inferior materials to create the same level of protection.

And actually the Tau are still far more primitive than the Imperium. The Imperium just chooses to not equip everyone to a very high level of technology because its expensive and unnecessary. When your biggest resource is literally unlimited manpower you're not going to waste money giving everyone the best possible gear. They could have a significantly smaller military where everyone got PA, combat implants, plasma guns, plasma grenades, melta bombs, and power swords, but that wouldn't be effective at all because they'd lose numbers, which is necessary when you have ~1,000,000 planets to police and defend.

Actually, the material the tau use, is lighter and stronger than ceramitite.

The evidence doesn't support that.

All tau suits are far far more bulky than power armor, yet they only provide the same level of protection. It is definitely lighter, or they wouldn't also be jump suits, although Assault Marines still exist too and they are just as fast as Tau suits while also being smaller.

This clearly shows at the very least it is no stronger than Ceramite. Its probably lighter, but definitely not stronger. You have to pile layers and layers of it on till you have a monstrosity the size of the Riptide till you get a 2+ save. To get a 2+ save on a battlesuit they have to completely change material(Irridium armor)

I think I'm going to take what's stated over looking at visual design and game mechanics.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Filch wrote:
...I think this poll is flawed because you have superior tau and eldar tech compared to inferior imperium of man tech.

And yet the IoM ''inferior'' tech is leading.

Does stealth suit actually offer the same stuff as PA + invisibility, or is it just protection?

Its roughly comparable to PA in protection due to being a thicker layer of inferior material.

Thats why Tau suits have 3+ saves, they've basically layered inferior materials to create the same level of protection.

And actually the Tau are still far more primitive than the Imperium. The Imperium just chooses to not equip everyone to a very high level of technology because its expensive and unnecessary. When your biggest resource is literally unlimited manpower you're not going to waste money giving everyone the best possible gear. They could have a significantly smaller military where everyone got PA, combat implants, plasma guns, plasma grenades, melta bombs, and power swords, but that wouldn't be effective at all because they'd lose numbers, which is necessary when you have ~1,000,000 planets to police and defend.

Actually, the material the tau use, is lighter and stronger than ceramitite.

The evidence doesn't support that.

All tau suits are far far more bulky than power armor, yet they only provide the same level of protection. It is definitely lighter, or they wouldn't also be jump suits, although Assault Marines still exist too and they are just as fast as Tau suits while also being smaller.

This clearly shows at the very least it is no stronger than Ceramite. Its probably lighter, but definitely not stronger. You have to pile layers and layers of it on till you have a monstrosity the size of the Riptide till you get a 2+ save. To get a 2+ save on a battlesuit they have to completely change material(Irridium armor)

I think I'm going to take what's stated over looking at visual design and game mechanics.

You can't take whats stated in the fluff as being true, its not impartial. Its true game mechanics aren't the best metric, but in this case it is comparing apples to apples. And visual comparison is always the most valid(IE: What do we observe happening)

The basic XV8 is 3 times the mass of a suit of power armor. It has the same rough resistance to damage as power armor. Thus because its larger we must infer that the material is inferior(by how much is unknown) in terms of strength. It is almost certainly lighter because they can get the effect of being jet infantry without as bulky thrusters(relative to the size of the suit)

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

I think so? We know the tech exists (you can get IR goggles in the 40k RPGS), but I'm not sure if any armies use them. If the IG doesn't, I can't only assume that at least the SMs do. Otherwise, that's just kind of sad.

Scions do

Guard uses them. Not all regiments however, but most. Mainly those expected to operate during night-time.

 Grey Templar wrote:


You can't take whats stated in the fluff as being true, its not impartial. Its true game mechanics aren't the best metric, but in this case it is comparing apples to apples. And visual comparison is always the most valid(IE: What do we observe happening)

The basic XV8 is 3 times the mass of a suit of power armor. It has the same rough resistance to damage as power armor. Thus because its larger we must infer that the material is inferior(by how much is unknown) in terms of strength. It is almost certainly lighter because they can get the effect of being jet infantry without as bulky thrusters(relative to the size of the suit)

... or we could assume that the jetpack and extra servos to carry as many heavy weapons as a tac squad actually takes up some of the Crisis suit's mass.

Stealth suit also has to fit a jetpack in it.

2 wounds do not equal 1 wound. A Crisis suit and its pilot can take more damage than a SM in power armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

I think so? We know the tech exists (you can get IR goggles in the 40k RPGS), but I'm not sure if any armies use them. If the IG doesn't, I can't only assume that at least the SMs do. Otherwise, that's just kind of sad.

 Grey Templar wrote:


You can't take whats stated in the fluff as being true, its not impartial. Its true game mechanics aren't the best metric, but in this case it is comparing apples to apples. And visual comparison is always the most valid(IE: What do we observe happening)

The basic XV8 is 3 times the mass of a suit of power armor. It has the same rough resistance to damage as power armor. Thus because its larger we must infer that the material is inferior(by how much is unknown) in terms of strength. It is almost certainly lighter because they can get the effect of being jet infantry without as bulky thrusters(relative to the size of the suit)

You realize the game models are extremely out of scale. Tau are supposed to be shorter than humans (something like 5'6" compared to 6') and SMs are supposed to be 7-8 feet tall. Not only that, there is no evedance that the XV25's "hood" is all armour, more likely it is power, communications, and stealth devices. If you want a good comparison, the older model XV15s have the same armour, but are barely bigger than tau in combat armour.

EDIT: Although the stuff is not necessarily tougher. I'm not sure where that particualr fluff comes from (I'm just echoing someone else in that), but the fluff that says it's lighter compares it to ceramitete but lighter, so that part is in conflict.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
That power armor is beating stealth suits is a clear indication that about half of our posters would favor Space Marines over anything else no matter how much evidence there is that they're not the right choice.

No, but this comment is clear indication that you would pick anything related to Tau even when it is a pretty bad choice. The stealth suit is not the best choice. Especially not when one considers that its design would make it impossible to actually hold weapons, toss grenades, go to the toilet or whatever action that requires two hands.

As stated, I picked the Riptide. Yes, the stealth suit is not the best choice. it is, however, superior to power armor in every way imaginable.

On the other hand, the Stealth suit is capable of manipulating fine objects.. and did you seriously suggest that power armor is better than a stealth suit because you can gak in power armor? Really? Do you realize how you sound?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

No Night Vision USR=no night vision. Space Marines do NOT, in fact, get such gear.

Tau pulse rifles are weaker than lasgun, despite all fluff saying otherwise, why? I said so.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Space shuttle would work, too... or you could maybe modify a B-2 bomber to carry it.

After that, a B-2 wouldn't be exactly stealthy

You could fit a Riptide inside of a B-2 and drop it from the air. I've seen a B-2. It's big enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

No Night Vision USR=no night vision. Space Marines do NOT, in fact, get such gear.

Tau pulse rifles are weaker than lasgun, despite all fluff saying otherwise, why? I said so.

Actually, GW's rules say so. It's wishful thinking and bad writing that say otherwise.

No. I said so, I am right, Tau tech blows. IoM rules. Feth yeah

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
That power armor is beating stealth suits is a clear indication that about half of our posters would favor Space Marines over anything else no matter how much evidence there is that they're not the right choice.

No, but this comment is clear indication that you would pick anything related to Tau even when it is a pretty bad choice. The stealth suit is not the best choice. Especially not when one considers that its design would make it impossible to actually hold weapons, toss grenades, go to the toilet or whatever action that requires two hands.

As stated, I picked the Riptide. Yes, the stealth suit is not the best choice. it is, however, superior to power armor in every way imaginable.

On the other hand, the Stealth suit is capable of manipulating fine objects.. and did you seriously suggest that power armor is better than a stealth suit because you can gak in power armor? Really? Do you realize how you sound?

Tau stealth suits have their weapons integrated into their suits. Please explain to me how one is realistically going to toss a modern grenade or hold an assault rifle when one of the arms on your suit is designed to have a huge gun attached to it?
And yes, while not by far the most important, being able to take a dump without leaving your post is quite handy.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
That power armor is beating stealth suits is a clear indication that about half of our posters would favor Space Marines over anything else no matter how much evidence there is that they're not the right choice.

No, but this comment is clear indication that you would pick anything related to Tau even when it is a pretty bad choice. The stealth suit is not the best choice. Especially not when one considers that its design would make it impossible to actually hold weapons, toss grenades, go to the toilet or whatever action that requires two hands.

As stated, I picked the Riptide. Yes, the stealth suit is not the best choice. it is, however, superior to power armor in every way imaginable.

On the other hand, the Stealth suit is capable of manipulating fine objects.. and did you seriously suggest that power armor is better than a stealth suit because you can gak in power armor? Really? Do you realize how you sound?

Tau stealth suits have their weapons integrated into their suits. Please explain to me how one is realistically going to toss a modern grenade or hold an assault rifle when one of the arms on your suit is designed to have a huge gun attached to it?
And yes, while not by far the most important, being able to take a dump without leaving your post is quite handy.

No, they don't. Look at the model. The weapon is underslug to one arm. It can be detached.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure a one-handed grenade wouldn't be hard to produce.

Or- gasp!- you could simply fit the thing's other arm with a grenade launcher.


... so, what do you think Tau do in their stealth suits? Just hold it for a really long time?

Tau are short lived...because of it.
When they can't hold it anymore ...BooM !

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
That power armor is beating stealth suits is a clear indication that about half of our posters would favor Space Marines over anything else no matter how much evidence there is that they're not the right choice.

No, but this comment is clear indication that you would pick anything related to Tau even when it is a pretty bad choice. The stealth suit is not the best choice. Especially not when one considers that its design would make it impossible to actually hold weapons, toss grenades, go to the toilet or whatever action that requires two hands.

As stated, I picked the Riptide. Yes, the stealth suit is not the best choice. it is, however, superior to power armor in every way imaginable.
On the other hand, the Stealth suit is capable of manipulating fine objects.. and did you seriously suggest that power armor is better than a stealth suit because you can gak in power armor? Really? Do you realize how you sound?

Tau stealth suits have their weapons integrated into their suits. Please explain to me how one is realistically going to toss a modern grenade or hold an assault rifle when one of the arms on your suit is designed to have a huge gun attached to it?
And yes, while not by far the most important, being able to take a dump without leaving your post is quite handy.

No, they don't. Look at the model. The weapon is underslug to one arm. It can be detached.
At any rate, I'm pretty sure a one-handed grenade wouldn't be hard to produce.
Or- gasp!- you could simply fit the thing's other arm with a grenade launcher.

... so, what do you think Tau do in their stealth suits? Just hold it for a really long time?

Just a quick question here. Could a human even use a Tau suit? Their physiology is different, so there is no indication that a human could pilot a suit in the first place.

Power Armour hands down, only thing that seems to beat it is plasma and i dont see plasma weapons being invented any time soon

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Filch wrote:
...I think this poll is flawed because you have superior tau and eldar tech compared to inferior imperium of man tech.

And yet the IoM ''inferior'' tech is leading.

Does stealth suit actually offer the same stuff as PA + invisibility, or is it just protection?

Its roughly comparable to PA in protection due to being a thicker layer of inferior material.

Thats why Tau suits have 3+ saves, they've basically layered inferior materials to create the same level of protection.

And actually the Tau are still far more primitive than the Imperium. The Imperium just chooses to not equip everyone to a very high level of technology because its expensive and unnecessary. When your biggest resource is literally unlimited manpower you're not going to waste money giving everyone the best possible gear. They could have a significantly smaller military where everyone got PA, combat implants, plasma guns, plasma grenades, melta bombs, and power swords, but that wouldn't be effective at all because they'd lose numbers, which is necessary when you have ~1,000,000 planets to police and defend.

Actually, the material the tau use, is lighter and stronger than ceramitite.

The evidence doesn't support that.

All tau suits are far far more bulky than power armor, yet they only provide the same level of protection. It is definitely lighter, or they wouldn't also be jump suits, although Assault Marines still exist too and they are just as fast as Tau suits while also being smaller.

This clearly shows at the very least it is no stronger than Ceramite. Its probably lighter, but definitely not stronger. You have to pile layers and layers of it on till you have a monstrosity the size of the Riptide till you get a 2+ save. To get a 2+ save on a battlesuit they have to completely change material(Irridium armor)

XV8 Crisis fluff says that the armormaterial is comparable to ceramite but much lighter. You have a 2+ on broadsides too, even the old ones that were the size of crisis. No need for iridium. XV15 stealth suits arent bulky, those are the new XV25, but as already stated that space prob holds sensors and stealth. Fluff also states that they not only bend light but also reduce noise and have heatsonsors. They also give you +1S in game! Crisis even +2S +1T and +1W! Power Armor enhances your strenght too, but in game doesnt give you a whole +1. Sorry guys, but the Astartes is what makes PA so awesome, and not the other way around. You can deepstrike with those suits and the XV15/25 fit in choppers and regular planes. You can outmanouver groundtargets easily with you jumppack. You have basically a machinegun at your arm, or just swap it with a tankblasting fusiongun. The advantages just never end.

Hm, does Tau Power Armor even have all the sub-systems that Astartes do? Because having to store food, medical systems, etc would indeed bulk it up.

aronthomas17 wrote:
Power Armour hands down, only thing that seems to beat it is plasma and i dont see plasma weapons being invented any time soon

Various Ion weapons, Artillery shells, and enough dakka.

Realistically power armor and im assuming the sisters (can you imagine your front line marines where that? ) or Inquisitor armor and even space marine PA still has non protected areas like the under arms and under leg sections. and IIRC the picture of the inquisitor version is even less protected.

Not saying its bad though.

Still think the las tech would be best. from an overall military logistical and realistically build able cost perspective.










Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Hm, does Tau Power Armor even have all the sub-systems that Astartes do? Because having to store food, medical systems, etc would indeed bulk it up.

They are too busy hitting running and dieing to think of that.

But they do have the capacity for medical systems considering the stim injection systems

Lasguns, as the rest would bankrupt us.

 Melissia wrote:
Lasguns, as the rest would bankrupt us.

...Don't you have like 18 trillions of USD in national debt already?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Lasguns, as the rest would bankrupt us.

...Don't you have like 18 trillions of USD in national debt already?

Its about: THE military
Could be Sweden. To protect them from bears.

Or ours, getting rid of complaints about the G36 => lasguns.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Lasguns, as the rest would bankrupt us.

...Don't you have like 18 trillions of USD in national debt already?

Its about: THE military
Could be Sweden. To protect them from bears.

Or ours, getting rid of complaints about the G36 => lasguns.

Well you could use some Mantas to nail down that Fourth Reich you've built up.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
That power armor is beating stealth suits is a clear indication that about half of our posters would favor Space Marines over anything else no matter how much evidence there is that they're not the right choice.

No, but this comment is clear indication that you would pick anything related to Tau even when it is a pretty bad choice. The stealth suit is not the best choice. Especially not when one considers that its design would make it impossible to actually hold weapons, toss grenades, go to the toilet or whatever action that requires two hands.

As stated, I picked the Riptide. Yes, the stealth suit is not the best choice. it is, however, superior to power armor in every way imaginable.

On the other hand, the Stealth suit is capable of manipulating fine objects.. and did you seriously suggest that power armor is better than a stealth suit because you can gak in power armor? Really? Do you realize how you sound?

Tau stealth suits have their weapons integrated into their suits. Please explain to me how one is realistically going to toss a modern grenade or hold an assault rifle when one of the arms on your suit is designed to have a huge gun attached to it?
And yes, while not by far the most important, being able to take a dump without leaving your post is quite handy.

No, they don't. Look at the model. The weapon is underslug to one arm. It can be detached.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure a one-handed grenade wouldn't be hard to produce.

Or- gasp!- you could simply fit the thing's other arm with a grenade launcher.


... so, what do you think Tau do in their stealth suits? Just hold it for a really long time?

When you compare both hands on the model, you clearly see that the right arm is just a solid hardpoint for mounting the gun. You will have a hard time manipulating any objects with it. And if we have to modify the suit before we can use it, we'd be better of with power armour.
Also, look at the feet of those stealth suits. It would be like stilt walking for human soldiers.

No, the technology the military really needs is Dark Eldar splinter rifles. No enemy would dare to fight them ever again because of the sheer terror value of those weapons.

Would anyone like me to add more options to the poll? (please tell me these.)

Does nobody else think Genetically modified Super soldiers? Yes they wont be equipped with Power Armour or Bolters but I reckon a Space Marine could shatter a skull with a single punch.
Plus it would bring me one step closer to becoming a Space Marine.

TheOrangeHiveMind wrote:
Does nobody else think Genetically modified Super soldiers? Yes they wont be equipped with Power Armour or Bolters but I reckon a Space Marine could shatter a skull with a single punch.
Plus it would bring me one step closer to becoming a Space Marine.

Quoting despite being right after you just to agree. Seeing as militaries have attempted to create super soldiers in the past...

It just wasn't on the poll. I think I'd still go with Power Armor, though, because making any man or woman capable of single-handedly turning the tide of war I feel would supercede the need to create that single man/woman in the first place.

Do you make a gun that always hits its mark even when fired by a guy with Parkinson's, or do you create the soldier with pinpoint accuracy? I think they'd go with the war gear if possible.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


You can't take whats stated in the fluff as being true, its not impartial. Its true game mechanics aren't the best metric, but in this case it is comparing apples to apples. And visual comparison is always the most valid(IE: What do we observe happening)

The basic XV8 is 3 times the mass of a suit of power armor. It has the same rough resistance to damage as power armor. Thus because its larger we must infer that the material is inferior(by how much is unknown) in terms of strength. It is almost certainly lighter because they can get the effect of being jet infantry without as bulky thrusters(relative to the size of the suit)

... or we could assume that the jetpack and extra servos to carry as many heavy weapons as a tac squad actually takes up some of the Crisis suit's mass.

Stealth suit also has to fit a jetpack in it.

2 wounds do not equal 1 wound. A Crisis suit and its pilot can take more damage than a SM in power armor.

Of course it takes up some of the mass, but its still devoting a good chunk to the armor. And actually the scale issue makes the suit larger relative to the marine. Tau suits are actually quite large.

No Night Vision USR=no night vision. Space Marines do NOT, in fact, get such gear.

Actually they do.

Astartes Power Armor(Deathwatch RPG pg 161):

"Auto-senses: The Space Marine gains the Dark Sight trait and Heightened Senses(+10 to relevant tests) for sight and sound."

Dark Sight lets you fight in total darkness without penalty. Its not enough to give basic space marines on the TT the Acute Senses or the Night Vision rule, but they do in fact have night vision equipment.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


You can't take whats stated in the fluff as being true, its not impartial. Its true game mechanics aren't the best metric, but in this case it is comparing apples to apples. And visual comparison is always the most valid(IE: What do we observe happening)

The basic XV8 is 3 times the mass of a suit of power armor. It has the same rough resistance to damage as power armor. Thus because its larger we must infer that the material is inferior(by how much is unknown) in terms of strength. It is almost certainly lighter because they can get the effect of being jet infantry without as bulky thrusters(relative to the size of the suit)

... or we could assume that the jetpack and extra servos to carry as many heavy weapons as a tac squad actually takes up some of the Crisis suit's mass.

Stealth suit also has to fit a jetpack in it.

2 wounds do not equal 1 wound. A Crisis suit and its pilot can take more damage than a SM in power armor.

Of course it takes up some of the mass, but its still devoting a good chunk to the armor. And actually the scale issue makes the suit larger relative to the marine. Tau suits are actually quite large.

Crisis suits are bigger than SMs, but that's because they are not actually armour, but a mini-mech. XV25s however aren't much bigger than your normal FW, and XV15s are effectively PA with a jetpack and stealth tech strapped on.

Making super soldiers brings in the complication that it means investing resources on people rather than equipment. Unlike equipment, people can decide they don't want to be in the army anymore.

Agreed, Raxmei. Equipment can be transferred from person to person, making it a big advantage.

For all those people who say power armor-- I think equipping ten thousand soldiers with lasguns and ammo is more important than equipping one soldier with power armor and no weapon

 Melissia wrote:
Agreed, Raxmei. Equipment can be transferred from person to person, making it a big advantage.

For all those people who say power armor-- I think equipping ten thousand soldiers with lasguns and ammo is more important than equipping one soldier with power armor and no weapon

Just give him one of the assault rifles we have lying around I guess? Ten thousand soldiers with power armour and AK-74s would easily beat ten thousand soldiers with a lasgun and contemporary armour. The lasgun is only a marginal upgrade in killing power to what we already have (and maybe even less, can a lasgun pierce walls like an AK?) and rifle munitions are only a tiny part of a supply line that has to be set up anyways. I fail to see any advantage offered by a lasgun. It is a great gun for 40k's IG, but much less so for a 21st century army.