Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can Terminator Sergeants from Codex: Space Marine take Assault Cannons?
The options listing states that "For every five models in the squad, one Terminator may choose from the following". The root of the question would be is the Sergeant counted as a normal Terminator (albeit with slightly different stats).

Herein lies the problem with GW giving models within units the same name as the unit...

Common convention says that the Terminator Sergeant is not a Terminator... he's a Terminator Sergeant. Different statlines with different names.

The argument can be made, however, that any model that is a member of a unit called 'Terminators' could be considered a Terminator... which would make the sergeant a Terminator who is a Terminator Sergeant.

 Selym wrote:
Can Terminator Sergeants from Codex: Space Marine take Assault Cannons?
The options listing states that "For every five models in the squad, one Terminator may choose from the following". The root of the question would be is the Sergeant counted as a normal Terminator (albeit with slightly different stats).

Negative. He is not a "Terminator". He is a "Terminator Sergeant". Terminator Sergeants don't have the option to take Assault Cannons.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Can Terminator Sergeants from Codex: Space Marine take Assault Cannons?
The options listing states that "For every five models in the squad, one Terminator may choose from the following". The root of the question would be is the Sergeant counted as a normal Terminator (albeit with slightly different stats).

Negative. He is not a "Terminator". He is a "Terminator Sergeant". Terminator Sergeants don't have the option to take Assault Cannons.

except, as insaniak notes:

 insaniak wrote:
The argument can be made, however, that any model that is a member of a unit called 'Terminators' could be considered a Terminator... which would make the sergeant a Terminator who is a Terminator Sergeant.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Can Terminator Sergeants from Codex: Space Marine take Assault Cannons?
The options listing states that "For every five models in the squad, one Terminator may choose from the following". The root of the question would be is the Sergeant counted as a normal Terminator (albeit with slightly different stats).

Negative. He is not a "Terminator". He is a "Terminator Sergeant". Terminator Sergeants don't have the option to take Assault Cannons.

except, as insaniak notes:

 insaniak wrote:
The argument can be made, however, that any model that is a member of a unit called 'Terminators' could be considered a Terminator... which would make the sergeant a Terminator who is a Terminator Sergeant.

1. That's not remotely how this works.

2. There is no unit in Codex: Space Marine called "Terminators". There is a "Terminator Squad" and a "Terminator Assault Squad". By the above logic, the best you could argue is that the Terminator Sergeant is a "Terminator Squad", which is clearly ludicrous.

It's a weak argument though when you point to the numerous upgrades that are given for 'any model' which is the way it would have been written for consistency with the rest of the codex.

 Kriswall wrote:
2. There is no unit in Codex: Space Marine called "Terminators". There is a "Terminator Squad" and a "Terminator Assault Squad". By the above logic, the best you could argue is that the Terminator Sergeant is a "Terminator Squad", which is clearly ludicrous.

Well, no... A Terminator Squad is a squad of terminators. Just as a football team is a team of footballers. The team captain, despite having an extra title, is still a footballer.


In a similar vein, stormravens can carry 'dreadnoughts'. Most players take that to include Venerable and Ironclad dreadoughts, taking 'dreadnought' as applying to the category, rather than the specific statline entitled 'dreadnought'.



To be clear, I don't believe that Terminator Sergeants are intended to be able to carry the assault cannon... The point is just that GW's wording on this, and similar options all through the game, kind of sucks.

This was a big discussion with the dark angels termies and lightning claws. That was ruled that the sgt cannot take the lightning claws because it was not available to the sgt just the unit. Same opinion with this issue

 insaniak wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
2. There is no unit in Codex: Space Marine called "Terminators". There is a "Terminator Squad" and a "Terminator Assault Squad". By the above logic, the best you could argue is that the Terminator Sergeant is a "Terminator Squad", which is clearly ludicrous.

Well, no... A Terminator Squad is a squad of terminators. Just as a football team is a team of footballers. The team captain, despite having an extra title, is still a footballer.


In a similar vein, stormravens can carry 'dreadnoughts'. Most players take that to include Venerable and Ironclad dreadoughts, taking 'dreadnought' as applying to the category, rather than the specific statline entitled 'dreadnought'.



To be clear, I don't believe that Terminator Sergeants are intended to be able to carry the assault cannon... The point is just that GW's wording on this, and similar options all through the game, kind of sucks.

I 100% agree that the wording is awful. GW REALLY needs to hire a copy editor to clean up the language and a law student to clean up the rules interactions.

You just sort of have to house rule these things on a case by case basis. I'd allow an Ironclad Dreadnought in a Storm Raven despite being told the Storm Raven only accommodates "Dreadnoughts" just as I would allow a "C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer" in a Conclave of the Burning One Formation despite that Formation calling for a "C'tan Shard". I would also allow a Storm Raven to carry Cassor the Damned (the new DC Dread from the recent campaign box) despite his unit also not being called "Dreadnought". I think the fluff can justify certain name fudges.

I would not however, allow a "Terminator Sergeant" to take upgrades that are only provided for "Terminators". The Sergeant is a "Terminator" from a fluff standpoint, but from a rules standpoint, he's a "Terminator Sergeant". The Sarge has a sword and fist/chainfist combo. The Sarge is never portrayed as being the heavy weapons member of the team. It's easy to convince me that Cassor the Damned is a Dreadnought for the purposes of embarking on Storm Ravens. It's much harder to convince me that a Termie Sarge is going to take up the mantle of team heavy weapons dude.

GW tends to be pretty loose with Unit names all over the place. They do, however, tend to be pretty consistent with model names within the options text of army list entries. In that vein, comparing the Dreadnought/Ironclad Dreadnought issue with the Terminator/Terminator Sergeant issue is like comparing apples and oranges.

I remember the old Ork Codex and nobz in boyz mobz taking one of the special weapons. The Codex said "ork", not boy, and the nob was certainly an ork. And ofc it made sense for orks that the biggest baddest guy could take the biggest gun if he wanted.

Bad wording indeed. But with all the ways the sarge can die it might not even be worth giving him the squad gun. A big bad melee monster that succesfully charges will probably challenge - why not put your first wounds caused on the sarge for free, taking out his (usually) better LD? Then you fall back, having lost the sarge and the biggest gun...

The tradeoff would of course be the ability to Look Out Sir on your heavy weapon guy...

That part in the codex itself is afwul. The Terminator Sergeant can take ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL, and this still angers me to this day. Gee Dubs is incompetent when it comes to writing codices and making sense.

A veteran sergeant, a hard-boiled veteran of hundreds of battles, can't have an access to anything else than a lousy stock power sword and standard issue storm bolter, while the younger and less experienced squad leaders got doors open at the armoury.

Why, GW, must you tease and torture us like this?