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I'm currently playing smaller battles at about 750-1250 points and I'm having trouble with heavy infantry and light tanks. I currently have the Dark Vengance box and a squad of CSM. I was wondering what wwould be best to deal with the problem.

Specifically going against Salamanders and necrons.

Not saying it's up to the task but have you been using the Helbrute, if so, how have you found it?

Spawn.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Not saying it's up to the task but have you been using the Helbrute, if so, how have you found it?

I haven't used it very much, but with the multi melta, i find it ok for armor. I try to keep it out of close combat

A unit of Havocs with Autocannons are pretty good at this.

 stomp56 wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Not saying it's up to the task but have you been using the Helbrute, if so, how have you found it?

I haven't used it very much, but with the multi melta, i find it ok for armor. I try to keep it out of close combat

Perhaps you could proxy it as having a Reaper autocannon and/or a missile launcher see how you get on with that, using it as a gun platform.

Obliterators are the general go to for Heavy support in the Codex as they are very versatile.

I use a combination of Havocs, Obliterators and a Predator Annihilator, but most would say it's probably not good synergy in the army. They kill stuff though which is the main thing

Crispy78 wrote:
A unit of Havocs with Autocannons are pretty good at this.

Very true, and pretty cheap too!

Crispy78 wrote:
A unit of Havocs with Autocannons are pretty good at this.

Yes! 8 shots at str7 is very nice for popping light armor, and reliably wounding tougher models. Not to mention autocannons are one of the cheaper heavy weapon options, costing the same as a heavy bolter (lose 1 shot with the AC, but gain 2 str over the HB).

 clamclaw wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
A unit of Havocs with Autocannons are pretty good at this.

Yes! 8 shots at str7 is very nice for popping light armor, and reliably wounding tougher models. Not to mention autocannons are one of the cheaper heavy weapon options, costing the same as a heavy bolter (lose 1 shot with the AC, but gain 2 str over the HB).

This - they work great for shooting up MCs that rely on toughness for protection (i.e., they have crummy saves).

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
A unit of Havocs with Autocannons are pretty good at this.

Yes! 8 shots at str7 is very nice for popping light armor, and reliably wounding tougher models. Not to mention autocannons are one of the cheaper heavy weapon options, costing the same as a heavy bolter (lose 1 shot with the AC, but gain 2 str over the HB).

This - they work great for shooting up MCs that rely on toughness for protection (i.e., they have crummy saves).

The one drawback I find is that they lack any substantial AP for dealing with heavy infantry. Though normally you can pour on enough shots to make that negligible.

Obliterators usually can make quick work out of light tanks such as rhino's, and because of their ability to choose from a range of nice dakka each turn, you can use autocannons one turn, and lascannons the next

 Will_H wrote:
Obliterators usually can make quick work out of light tanks such as rhino's, and because of their ability to choose from a range of nice dakka each turn, you can use autocannons one turn, and lascannons the next

Oblits always felt like a risky move to me though, since you're going to have less models on the board compared to a 5 man havoc squad. Of course, you can always stick them in cover with MoN. Then again, I also prefer the aesthetics of autocannon havocs over oblits, so I'm probably impartial.

 clamclaw wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
A unit of Havocs with Autocannons are pretty good at this.

Yes! 8 shots at str7 is very nice for popping light armor, and reliably wounding tougher models. Not to mention autocannons are one of the cheaper heavy weapon options, costing the same as a heavy bolter (lose 1 shot with the AC, but gain 2 str over the HB).

This - they work great for shooting up MCs that rely on toughness for protection (i.e., they have crummy saves).

The one drawback I find is that they lack any substantial AP for dealing with heavy infantry. Though normally you can pour on enough shots to make that negligible.

100% agreed. Luckily, CSM have plenty of tools for killing heavy infantry, usually in melee (AoBF lords, LC/PF Bikerlords, Daemon Princes) but also at range (Plasma Guns on Havocs or CSM, and Obliterators).

Autocannons fill the role of threatening backfield objective holders, light vehicles, MCs, and other high T targets that rely on toughness, rather than an armor save, for protection. So I'd argue that they compliment our existing hard hitters, which you should be taking anyway.

Another nice thing about Autocannon Havocs is that, while they're effective against the above targets, they aren't typically high on the target priority list meaning that they can pump out shots for a greater proportion of the game time. They aren't viewed as nearly as threatening as Lascannon Havocs, they can't be one-shotted at range like Predators, and they aren't nearly as expensive as Obliterators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Will_H wrote:
Obliterators usually can make quick work out of light tanks such as rhino's, and because of their ability to choose from a range of nice dakka each turn, you can use autocannons one turn, and lascannons the next

Honestly I'm really not a fan of Obliterators. I find that they almost always attract an inordinate amount of fire, they're exceptionally expensive, and they pay a premium for versatility when, IMO, you're better off taking two separate specialist units.

This is coming from a guy who ran 9 of them in 5th edition.

3 hades autocannon rapier platforms.
Costs 80pts more than 5 havocs with 4 autocannons but gets 12 shots rather than 8, st8 rather than st7, 12 t7 3+ wounds rather than 5 t4 3+ wounds.
It is a FW unit though.

An excellent shout would be:
Chaos lord
MoK, juggernaught, axe of blind fury, sigil of corruption
170pts
Gives 6 + d6 st6 (or 7 if in a unit with icon of wrath) ws6 I5 ap2 attacks on the charge.
Stick him in a unit of spawn or bikes.

Or
Deamon Prince of Khorne
Wings, power armour, axe of blind fury
250pts
For 8 + d6 st9 ws9 I8 ap2 attacks on the charge.

Or
10 havocs (7-8 will do)
1 combi-plasma, 4 plasma
Rhino
I use this a lot and another unit with meltas. With full plasma, rhino and 8 men it comes to 219pts. I don't know why I don't see more CSM players using specs instead of heavies on havocs.

Or
Maulerfiend
Never used one, but want to. Better than dreads in every way. Moves 12", more attacks, 5+ invuln, ignores crew shaken/stunned on a 2+. Only 125pts.

Or
Vindicator
St10 ap2 pieplate, what's more to say?

Or
Helldrake with baleflamer
St6 ap3 torrent. And hard to take down. More anti heavy infantry than anti light armour tbf though.

Or
Kharn with MoK CSM/abbaddon with MoK terminators in a dreadclaw.
My absolute favourite unit at the moment. A dreadclaw is an av12 all round fast skimmer/flyer that deepstrikes in the first turn and has assault vehicle special rules. Much cheaper than a LR and pretty much guarantees a T2 charge from a crazy assault character + retinue (which can always be against 2 different targets if they split). Will ruin meq an vehicles.
Again though - FW.

Or
Sicaran battle tank
Another FW option. 135pts and it has a st7 ap4 rending, ignores jink, twinlinked gun.

@Poly Ranger: Just remember that the Axe of Blinding Fury gives -1 to Weapon and Ballistic Skill and that it replaces a close combat weapon.

Ah yes I didn't subtract the ws. My bad. Still easily the best relic weapon in the game.