Tactica Mechanicus - All Hail Mars! - 7th Edition Legacy Tactics

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**Jpr**

gameandwatch wrote:
After careful consideration, I have determined the following:

TROOPS:
Vanguard are the best troop:
I know I know, rangers have some pretty cool stuff, but when it comes to general versatility and use, I don't think they hold up as well. First, they are more expensive. Second, none of the special weapons synergize with the unit. The only exception would be the arquebus, but even then it would make more sense to use the extreme range to keep the unit out of danger, which would mean you are only firing a maximum of 3 shots against most targets(since they would be sitting in the way back)

The vanguard instead synergize very well with most special weapons, with arc rifles being the best option. AP2 plasma is nice, but paying tripple the cost of one model is way too high a tax to make it useful. Normally I would say that anti vehicle, mixed in with anti infantry is bad, but considering the arc rifle is also S6, it completes both tasks fairly well. Also OMNISPECS EVERYTIME!

The passive toughness lowering is very situational, but has hilariously helped against both centurions and thunderwolves, allowing my S8 dragoons on the charge to double them out. SILLY!

ELITES:
Unfortunately, neither of these doods are fantastic, this section will more come to taste and personal preference than anything else.

Both unfortunately suffer from the same problem, T3 and cost.

They are both relatively fast, can take on many different types of targets (the ruststalkers more than the infiltrators) but even with a 4+ 6++ 5+++ and 2 wounds, against anything but standard infantry weapons, they will crumble. The rustalkers taken stock are one of the best jacks of all trades I have seen, they are fast, have assault grenades, can wound anything at any toughness, access to AP2, haywire for vehicles, etc. A very well rounded close combat unit that has no real defense for avoiding getting blown off the able aside from speed. Any S6 or higher, high volume of fire weapons, ie scatterlasers, high yield missile pods, autocannons, multilasers, etc will just decimate these guys. How T4 would have dramatically changed their effectveness, and likely justify their 30 point cost. Granted though, if this unit does make it to combat, holy crap can they dish out the pain. Not only can they very reliably kill knights, but they can also engage infantry, heavy infantry, MC and GMC equally. As said, the only problem is getting there...

Infiltrators...now, I LOVE these guys, their design/ look, the fact that they can pack hilarious uzis, and the tesla goad is actually pretty devastating to light infantry. These guys LEVEL hordes and blobs with impunity, with massed machine pistol fire followed by mass S5-6 hits in CC. They do have both stealth and infiltrate to get them into the fight better, and can be an amusing harass unit with the dunstrider rule. And MAN is their passive ability so mean. Shoe in for me, but many I believe will get different mileage out of these guys.

FAST:
THe one and only choice, dragoons... yes they are a bit squishy, but you can take lots of them, are priced like a terminator and are incredible as both ranged and melee platforms. In fact, choosing which platform has been my biggest debacle with this army. Their melee is fantastic, threatens so many targets and is hilarious when paired with both vanguard and infiltrators.

But most have overlooked their ranged output. Ironically, their ranged capability with jezzails plugs a lot of the holes that things like infiltrators and russtalkers face. Things like broadsides, or riptides, or jetbikes with scatter, centurions, even things like wraithknights, and any normal monstrous creature. 6 of these guys skittering around the board sounds like a really fun harass unit that on good rolls will deal devestating damage to multiwound models/units. Think, first turn throw on BS5+, shoot any target(since basically anything is in range with their speed) and laugh when you get one or more 6's throwing 2+ ap2 wounds on targets. having them with jezzails also makes using the serpentias more justified, as not only does it increase the chance of other units in your army charging, but they can lower the potential cover saves used when 6s are rolled with the jezzails.

In fact the only real issue with the jezzail dragoons is the lack of fast attack slots. I would love to have 2 units of both, but the only way this is achievable is with multiple cads or using the sub par formation.

Heavy support:
I really don't like the ballistas, I don't know why, but 55 points for an autocannon platform seems like a lot to me. I won't go too much in depth with them, as I don't exactly understand their place in the army. I would definitely like to hear others experience/ feelings about them!

Dunecrawler: Man, I really REALLY want to use these guys, but I am really not sure on a loadout. The anti-air option is the most expensive and stuck shooting at skimmers and flyers/ FMC, but it handles with devastating effect one of the armies greatest weaknesses which is flyrants. They are also able to do some damage to things like wave serpents, which is never a bad thing. I will likely always have a unit of 1-3 equipped wiht this option. The neutron laser is another story. I really REALLY want to like this weapon, 48" S10 AP1 Concussive, Blast is really fantastic, but is 115 points for a single blast and a S4 stubber really worth it? Im not sure, and have been wracking my brain to figure it out. Surprisingly many have overlooked the TL heavy phosphur blaster, which 3 TL S6 ap3 shots isn't bad, and with the phosphur rule, S6 makes it much easier to wound/ glance, making this rule more effective when used alongside other units. It is an interesting option for only 15 points, though would likely have been a more interesting one if it was 5 points cheaper.

Not sure of the usefulness of the beamer, seems chancy, idk maybe it can be good?

Anyways, this is what my research has found me

Some good analysis here.

I've definitely found the vanguard better. Rangers are okay, but vanguard have got some excellent rules.

Infiltrators are badass and they combine really well with other characters who can tank for them (which is their only weakness). Ruststalkers i'm not sure of, haven't used much.

Dragoons are absolutely amazing indeed. I wish there was 3+ slots. Both weapons are great and I struggle to pick as well.

Autocannon ironstriders I have found okay actually. Not amazing but they can do a job for the cost.

The onagers are so expensive I really wish they were 25 points cheaper at least. The icaris is the only way to play them I've found.

The ironstrider formation is also good but you really need reserve manipulation i've found to get the benefit of it. Jezzails with bs7 and reroll to wound are amazing.

**Super Newb**

SirDonlad wrote:
I much prefer the ranger heads, but i feel like there isn't enough respect being given for the humble rad-carbine - on a six to wound you get two automatic wounds and it's assault3! so ten guys put out 30 shots? for 100pts!?

Am i missing something here - or is that epic for the points?

Their stock gun is very nice indeed.

And I agree with you on the Ranger heads. Which is why my own Vanguard are being built with Ranger heads.

**corpsyworpsy**

Put this together because I thought these armies sync well. Not sure if skitarii really bring enough to the list but I would love to see the models together.

1500 PTS
Skitarii

2 x 5 Rangers
- 2 Aquebus each
- Ominspex

2 x 5 Vanguard
- 2 Arc Rifles

3 x Onager Dunecrawlers
- 2 x Icarus Array
- 1 x Neutron laser and cognis heavy stubber

Nemesis Strike Force

Librarian
- level 3

5 x Terminators
- Psycannon, Hammer, Ward

2 x Nemesis Dreadknight
- Heavy Incinerator
- Greatsword
- Personal Teleporter

**gameandwatch**

axisofentropy wrote:
gameandwatch wrote:

In fact the only real issue with the jezzail dragoons is the lack of fast attack slots. I would love to have 2 units of both, but the only way this is achievable is with multiple cads or using the sub par formation.

I think that Ironstrider formation is great and by itself compliments lots of other Imperial codices without paying for Skitarii troops. Its special rules are incredible. Just choosing which table edge they arrive, likely on turn one would be great, but adding in the other rules is awesome.

Let me explain my comment, the reason I feel it is sub par (on its own, not as allied) is for 2 reasons. One is deployement, yes they have acute senses so you will likely get your preferred table edge, but as they are HUGE by their bases alone, and can't tank shock, this actually means they could have very few entry options since they all arrive on the same side at the same time. The second reason is task, what task do you give the dragoons? Do you have them as assault units that could fail to arrive for a few turns? Or do you have them as shooting units with jezzails that could do first turn damage, but likely would do just as much if not more if they started on the board to guaranteed fire the first turn? As well, dragoons starting on the board almost guarantees a second turn charge with both scout and dunestrider, so why not just have them on the board?

In the same question, the ballistaris have 48" ranged weapons... why do they need to outflank? The only real value is to avoid damage if not going first, but they could also fail to arrive. The fact that you dont have a choice to reserve them is my BIGGEST problem.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to mention as a side note, that it makes me very sad that the only source of transonic weaponry is the ruststalkers, I love the look and backgrounds of these weapons, and want to use them, but I just don't know If I can justify using them...

**ultimentra**

The value of outflank comes from the name of the rule, flanking the enemy. Taking the enemy head on means in many cases, you are hitting front or side armor- the highest values. When your units come in from outflank, that task ought to be to hit an enemy's weakest point. This means- 1) taking out squishy buffing units like psykers, pathfinders, etc. 2) getting the rear armor angle of an enemy vehicle, artillery for example that might normally be out of reach for the rest of your army. 3) contest the opponents backfield, and therefore objectives that may be there, taking out any small objective camping squads such as cultists, guardsmen, rangers, and scouts.

Now said, this means that outflanking is situational. A person should not devote their entire army to the tactic, nor should they depend on it. It is simply more options one ought to consider.

**gameandwatch**

ultimentra wrote:
The value of outflank comes from the name of the rule, flanking the enemy. Taking the enemy head on means in many cases, you are hitting front or side armor- the highest values. When your units come in from outflank, that task ought to be to hit an enemy's weakest point. This means- 1) taking out squishy buffing units like psykers, pathfinders, etc. 2) getting the rear armor angle of an enemy vehicle, artillery for example that might normally be out of reach for the rest of your army. 3) contest the opponents backfield, and therefore objectives that may be there, taking out any small objective camping squads such as cultists, guardsmen, rangers, and scouts.

Now said, this means that outflanking is situational. A person should not devote their entire army to the tactic, nor should they depend on it. It is simply more options one ought to consider.

I understand the value of outflank, that is not what is being debated here. What is is that the formation mentioned gains no real value out of it. For dragoons or ballistaris to be effective, they need numbers, numbers dramatically increases their footprint, which then limits their entry options. And they also cannot move through enemy units so a smart player will simply deny one of the flanks to the player with this formation. I mean, I would. There is also the risk of the units being late. If they didn't have to arrive simultaniously on the same side, I would see more value in this formation. This would also allow tau players a free shot at them before they act, in the case of melee dragoons, this would afford them 2 chances to attack them before they act, 1 from intercept, 1 from normal shooting.

**Wilson**

Best load out for infiltrators and rust stalkers?

Also, which unit do you Prefer?

**harkequin**

Am i missing something with the cavaliers?

You make one reserve roll, but they dont all have to arrive on the same side, and considering you have 2/3 chance of the side you want, and a re-roll, finding the a place to arrive shouldn't be an issue, especially since they move 9"

**Whiskey144**

Wilson wrote:
Best load out for infiltrators and rust stalkers?

Also, which unit do you Prefer?

For Infiltrators, skip the Sword+Stubcarbine entirely. Yes, you get better range on your shooting and AP3 in combat, but the problem is that Infiltrators don't have assault grenades, and against MEQ they really will want to be striking simultaneously rather than last. This is especially true against, say, MEQ with Power Mauls- that Maul will be striking at S6/AP4, allowing it to deny 4+ armor and FNP, leaving the Infiltrators with their 6++ as their only defense.

Flechette Blaster+Taser Goad allows better anti-infantry shooting, actually, against T3/4 targets; an an example, against T3/5+, Stubcarbines kill 3-4 models, maybe 5 if you roll well. Flechette Blasters will actually kill 7-8 T3/5+ models, potentially wiping out most of a squad. Additionally Taser Goads make the Infiltrators S6 in combat. While they are still going to have to deal with not having assault grenades, against T3 horde infantry it's not as much of a problem. IIRC, Sicarian infantry (IE, Infiltrators/Ruststalkers) have "standard" FNP of 5+. A 30-man Guard blob with no power weapons (or at least none of the at-Initiative variety) will kill ~1.5 Sicarians before said Sicarians can strike back- so 4 of them will actually still be standing (remember, Sicarians are 2-wound models). These remaining 4 will strike with, IIRC, 4 combat attacks a piece, +1 more for the leader, so 17 attacks, at S6. It's about 11.34 hits, and will probably net around 2 "Taser strikes", which each confer two additional hits, so a total of 15.34 hits. At S6. They'll kill ~8.5 Guardsmen on the charge, and that's if they go through cover and have to strike at I1. Next round, they'll kill around 6 Guardsmen, leaving about 13-14 Guardsmen left standing.

That is, of course, if they managed to not fail the -5 Leadership test for losing combat. With the I4 of the Infiltrators, they'll probably sweep the I3 Guardsmen- more likely, in fact, if the Neurostatic Aura applies when making the test to break from combat.

Flechette Blasters are also pistols, and so combine with the Taser Goad to confer the bonus CCW bonus, unlike Stubcarbines, which are merely Assault and can't confer the bonus attack. Bonus points for the huge pile of S6 attacks, allowing them to easily wreck any vehicle with AV10 rear armor... IE, most of them.

For Ruststalkers, the Transonic Blades are kind of a trap- you don't get to keep the awesome Mindscrambler Grenades, which means that you then face the same problem Infiltrators (and many of the weaker Xeno assault units) face: you have to strike at I1 after charging through cover. Obviously, in the case of Infiltrators/Ruststalkers, the Dunestrider rule can help mitigate that by a lot- it's quite easy for Infiltrators/Ruststalkers/Dragoons to set up Turn 2 charges, thanks to that +3" of movement.

Still the grenades the Ruststalkers get are awesome, and generally speaking the +1S of the Blades isn't going to be very necessary, when they can already auto-wound on 6's, and do so at AP2. Ruststalkers with Chordclaws and Razors, and backed up by Infiltrators to provide the support of the Neurostatic Aura, might actually be able to take on a current Wraithknight.... though with the WK becoming a GC, that's probably going to change.

So yeah, keep the basic gear of the Ruststalkers as-is. The "Razors" and Chordclaws are perfectly sufficient, and are also a bit more flexible. Oh, and the Mindscrambler Grenades are boss.

Now, as far as Infiltrators vs Ruststalkers... I feel like Ruststalkers only really come into their own when they can charge things with 2+ armor, but still manage to survive into a second round of combat, or, they have something that's got AV12+ rear armor to charge and apply their Haywire Grenades to. Other than that, Infiltrators seem to offer better potential- against most non-Walker, non-Superheavy vehicles you can charge them and use the huge pile of S6 attacks to wreck it, and the Flechette Blasters are quite deadly against GEQ and the like, on top of conferring a bonus attack for being a pistol.

Infiltrators also provide the utility support of the Neurostatic Aura, and can start further up the board. I feel like the Skitarii generally want to deal with vehicles by either charging Dragoons or Infiltrators with their respective Taser weapons into them, or by using Arc Rifles from a distance. Against infantry, the preferred choice seems to be to use well-placed Infiltrator squads to debuff Leadership, and then use Rangers/Vanguard or Phosphor Onagers to shoot them till they run, or just shoot them till they die if that doesn't work.

But Ruststalkers are really awesome, being a very fast assault unit that's quite dangerous. In some ways the Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are really best used to complement each other, as the Infiltrators benefit from the Ruststalkers' assault grenades (IE, Ruststalkers charge first, then the Infiltrators charge and probably don't get punched a lot), and the both really benefit from the Neurostatic Aura.

**ultimentra**

As much as I love cyborg robot ninjas, I really, really love the aesthetics of the Infiltrators so I am going to build my first kit as infiltrators.

**Jpr**

harkequin wrote:
Am i missing something with the cavaliers?

You make one reserve roll, but they dont all have to arrive on the same side, and considering you have 2/3 chance of the side you want, and a re-roll, finding the a place to arrive shouldn't be an issue, especially since they move 9"

It's definitely contentious..it doesn't say how it works in the rules. We play here they can roll separately for the sides.

**Verviedi**

Just built my first kit of Infiltrators and played in a 3v3 4,000 point Tau, Skitarii, and GK against Tyranids. I killed a Trygon Prime with my Plasma Vanguard and some Fire Warriors, and a single volley from my Infiltrators killed 11 Hormagaunts.
I took 0 casualties.
We won.

**gameandwatch**

I can see the argument that they could roll separately to see which side they come from, we have just been playing that since only one roll is made for their reserve roll, only one roll is made for which side they all arrive on.

Something interesting I just realized with the russtalkers, there is literally no reason for the transonic razor to even exist. You are always going to use the chordclaw, as one attack will gain fleshbane with no downside, and the chordclaw has transonic so... what purpose is there for the razor?

Another thing to note with ruststalkers is that if you want them to hunt vehicles, it may be worth it to give the princeps a prehensile dataspike, as this will give him a melee haywire weapon, that makes up for being a specialist weapon by gaining a bonus attack at I10. with this weapon, this unit could EASILY kill a knight in one assault phase, with 4 haywire grenade attacks and 5 haywire attacks from the princeps on the charge. With infiltrators close by, even more so as they will hit first and on 3s

**Big Blind Bill**

I'm really feeling like the elites are the weak part of this codex.

People keep talking about how great the rust stalker and infiltrator damage output is...but it's short ranged on a fragile squad.

Using LoS blocking cover along with the formation that lets them run and charge in the same turn is the only way I can think to get them into cc without getting a landraider.

Even if they get into cc and win, they will be shot off the board next turn, and will most liekly not have earned their points back (they are a bit overpriced imo).

T3 and a 4+ save just doesn't cut it vs all the str 6 stuff out there.

**gameandwatch**

Elites are definitely the weakest portion, I believe that either option will most often be taken as either a love of the model, or the fluff of the unit than general competitive nature.

**BrianDavion**

gameandwatch wrote:
Elites are definitely the weakest portion, I believe that either option will most often be taken as either a love of the model, or the fluff of the unit than general competitive nature.

yeah, well they provide some decent melee, I forsee most people if they want melee wrecker units allying in something. GKTs and the like

**Whiskey144**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
I'm really feeling like the elites are the weak part of this codex.

People keep talking about how great the rust stalker and infiltrator damage output is...but it's short ranged on a fragile squad.

Using LoS blocking cover along with the formation that lets them run and charge in the same turn is the only way I can think to get them into cc without getting a landraider.

Even if they get into cc and win, they will be shot off the board next turn, and will most liekly not have earned their points back (they are a bit overpriced imo).

T3 and a 4+ save just doesn't cut it vs all the str 6 stuff out there.

Well yes, against S6/7 spam then there really isn't much that T3/4+/6++/5+++ will do, as it denies FNP, denies 2-Wound durability, and can either overwhelm the 4+ or bypass it via AP and force the model to rely on either cover or the 6++. The point about Infiltrators/Ruststalkers that makes them pretty good though, is that they are incredibly fast for what is basically just a bunch of expensive, footslogging, punch-happy doods. It's a lot of why Dragoons are so amazeballs as well; they're incredibly fast, and so they can easily force your opponent to deal with them.

In the current state of the game, where "spam S6/7 shooting=win", then this isn't particularly useful, as the Sicarian infantry are doubled out by S6+ and Dragoons are 10/10/10 2HP and Open-Topped to boot. Realistically, however, against armies that aren't Eldar (because Scatterbikes are blatantly, horrifically OP) or Tau (because of HYMP+Ignore Cover MLs), then Dragoons and Sicarians are pretty amazing.

**gameandwatch**

Well, dragoons are actually 11/11/11 but apples and oranges, immunity to bolters is something. Speed is the key, and I feel that the way to deal with jetbike spam and hymp broadsides is the same, soften them up considerably from afar and then send in the assaulters. Even infiltrating/ scouting sicarian infiltrators with flechette pistols will WRECK jetbikes in the shooting phase.

The big rule that dominates skitarii is "Do I have first turn?" As well, the only real way I fell you can run them is threat overload. Have 2-3 units of infiltrators, a bunch of vanguard or rangers, tons of dragoons, etc. Force your opponent to choose the targets you want, because if there is one thing that every unit in skitarii basically represents, that is the glass-cannon methodology. Basically all the units are capable of high damage output in small numbers.

**Unit1126PLL**

I agree. That's what made me decide to run the killclade - 1 or two units of infiltrators / ruststalkers is tolerable, but 4 is borderline overload, especially when both unit types have a pretty significant threat increase for free.

**gameandwatch**

True, and coupled with what I run which is also 12 dragoons, good luck dispatching all of that

**Wilson**

Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

**Verviedi**

Wilson wrote:
Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

On paper they're good with everything. My favorite loadout is Jezzail, though, due to the ridiculousness it inflicts on a 6 to wound.

**Wilson**

Verviedi wrote:
Wilson wrote:
Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

On paper they're good with everything. My favorite loadout is Jezzail, though, due to the ridiculousness it inflicts on a 6 to wound.

Whats good about that? Vangaurd do the whole rad poisoning thing much better.

**harkequin**

Wilson wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Wilson wrote:
Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

On paper they're good with everything. My favorite loadout is Jezzail, though, due to the ridiculousness it inflicts on a 6 to wound.

Whats good about that? Vangaurd do the whole rad poisoning thing much better.

The Jezzail is a sniper, 6's are resolved at AP2

**Wilson**

harkequin wrote:
Wilson wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Wilson wrote:
Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

On paper they're good with everything. My favorite loadout is Jezzail, though, due to the ridiculousness it inflicts on a 6 to wound.

Whats good about that? Vangaurd do the whole rad poisoning thing much better.

The Jezzail is a sniper, 6's are resolved at AP2

Yeah but... 3 dragoons with tasers are way better. 12 tesla attacks @st8 ws5? ( doctrines) will tear stuff apart!

**harkequin**

Yeah but... 3 dragoons with tasers are way better. 12 tesla attacks @st8 ws5? ( doctrines) will tear stuff apart!

Absolutely, I'd lean more towards tasers myself, but jezzails are ranged. 3 dragoons with jezzails, @BS5 , 5 hits, likely one 6,

so, 2 ap5 wounds, and 2 ap2 wounds regardless of toughness . Up this to a squad of 6 and, you're killing ~4 TEQs at 30" range. or 6 MEQs. There are probably not the most points efficient, but a solid option. + they can still charge things as needed with S5 attacks, and AV11 for tarpitting.

I think a squad of tasers would be great, more versatile. They would love hoards and vehicles, and can even drown other units in saves.
But they still are doing this ar T2 at the earliest.

**Kanluwen**

What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

**harkequin**

I dont see them needing it, ballistari can do it better anyway, I'm just pointing out why some people like the jezzails, 6's are 2 AP2 wounds at 30" range, It might suit some people.

I'd still prefer tasers though

**Verviedi**

Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My local store is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

**Yodhrin**

Honestly I think if you can get them into combat, stalkers should be able to handle the new Wraithknight despite it's GMC status. There's a batrep from Frontline Gaming on Twitch with a barely optimised Skitarii list up against a Nidzilla tournament list that includes a Barbed Hierodule, and a unit of 5 stalkers knocks off 5 of its 6 wounds. Of course if it rolls loads of Stomps you'd be buggered, but that's true of most things.

I have a suspicion that the relative speed of the Sicarian units might be giving people the wrong impression about them; to me they seem to make much more sense when viewed as the second wave of an attack, rather than the first. Charging Vanguard then Infiltrators as a one-two punch, with Stalkers to peel off and engage anything that looks like threatening your ability to pull off that tactic or to deliver a knockout into a combat with Super Heavies/GMCs/particularly tough MCs sounds to me like it will be more effective than trying to run a block of Sicarians up the board as if they were Marines. Or using them as counter-chargers if you use your Vanguard as an aggressive gunline.

Basically, look at their speed as a tool to make sure they are where you need them to be at any particular time, rather than a way for them to get into combat early and quickly.