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 quickfuze wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Just can't pass up all those grav shots.....

Trying to find a 4th unit to get the second tier canticles on the first turn at least....almost considering priests.....in an allied detachment anyway lol

Also up to 750 points of free stuff in my formation army. Ally in blood Angels for some pods, and we have a good time here

And you think this is a good thing for the game? 40k's continued path down the road of whom ever wins the go first roll, wins the game.

Hell no, I think it's awful. The only saving grace is that the list is terrible. only thing that saves it at all is the free stuff. Honestly most of those points in upgrades are not actually making the list stronger it's "ehhh why not" upgrades. I would probably only be looking at maybe 400 points of meaningful upgrades, nothing in the scheme of things co spidering the required investment for that formation

I'm Kind of tossing around the idea of allying in Tempestus for access to flyers and Tauroxes. I know the Taurox hasn't really made a splash at all, but I feel like they can shore up a few holes in a Skitarii list while providing fast transports as well as deepstrikers with half decent guns.

 Wingeds wrote:
I'm Kind of tossing around the idea of allying in Tempestus for access to flyers and Tauroxes. I know the Taurox hasn't really made a splash at all, but I feel like they can shore up a few holes in a Skitarii list while providing fast transports as well as deepstrikers with half decent guns.

Wouldn't Inquisition be cheaper for flyers. plus the servoskulls are quite handy.

Yea, I am currently building a large battle servitor unit. Can't decide if I want to include any plasma. Outside of daemons I am not worried about any lists where it is worth it most of the time. Maybe consider one for creating a seperate wound pool...

And if it gets hot just have the magos fix him

Played a very hectic game yesterday (5v5 madness). Can't judge much on overall army performance, but it was an excellent opportunity to test Onager durability in squadrons. Properly supported, assaults were never a threat for them. Ran 2x with Neutrons, extra stubber, and IWND gloves. Five turns of various shots directed their way (assorted Eldar pulse lasers and brightlances and starcannons and EML, Tyranid haywire missiles and Dakka Tyrant, Shokattack and Smasha guns) saw one HP off one crab by the end of the match. Each time the front took wounds, cycled him back and let IWND do its job. Total squad lost three HP and repaired two.

On the subject of Eradication on the Dunecrawler - depends on your list I'd say. If you're lacking in anti-horde, that large blast is invaluable. Else grab Neutron.

 Leth wrote:
Yea, I am currently building a large battle servitor unit. Can't decide if I want to include any plasma. Outside of daemons I am not worried about any lists where it is worth it most of the time. Maybe consider one for creating a seperate wound pool...

And if it gets hot just have the magos fix him

I had this same dilemma before. I saw on another board someone did the mathhammer for Grav weapons vs. Plasma, in most cases Grav trumped. 18 Heavy Grav shots is nothing to sniff at. You can kill one Tyranid MC per round of shooting. Stick Coteaz for his special rule and any deepstrikers are going to cry - including droppod shenanigans.

Right now the list I'm thinking of requires working with the Inquisition.

Coteaz
Xenos Inquisitor with Rad/Psychotroke Grenades, Needle Pistol/Conversion Beamer, Power Armor, Psyker ML1

2 henchmen mob with a psyker, 3 melta acolytes, and a payback

Magos Dominus

2 Kataphron GravStroyer squads (3 man) with cognis flamers
1 5 man Gravstroyer squad

1 4 man Kastellan squad with all phosphor.


The idea is that the Magos and Xenos Inquisitor go with the Kastellans so they have ablative wounds while being even more effective in CC if needed. The Inquisitor can also use Prescience on the unit to improve the DAKKA even more.

Coteaz rides with the larger Gravstroyer unit to give them interceptor.

The Psyback mobs and min destroyer squads can both take down vehicles as well as infantry reasonably well. The Psybacks take care of low armor save units while the destroyers nuke MEQ and TEQ.

I feel like anything more than MSU with Kastellan is going to be over-kill. Their split-fire formation exists, in part, because more than 2 of them, at those points, will over-kill almost anything.

The theme I'm getting from the CM army is "overkill". Electropriests with tons of Instant-Death attacks, Dakkabots, Kataphrons with 18 heavy grav...

Which is balanced around their being expensive, and still only targeting one unit (split fire only exists in an even more insanely expensive formation).

My point was to the post above, considering running four Kastellan in a unit, which is just a terrible waste.

 TranSpyre wrote:
Right now the list I'm thinking of requires working with the Inquisition.

Coteaz
Xenos Inquisitor with Rad/Psychotroke Grenades, Needle Pistol/Conversion Beamer, Power Armor, Psyker ML1

2 henchmen mob with a psyker, 3 melta acolytes, and a payback

Magos Dominus

2 Kataphron GravStroyer squads (3 man) with cognis flamers
1 5 man Gravstroyer squad

1 4 man Kastellan squad with all phosphor.


The idea is that the Magos and Xenos Inquisitor go with the Kastellans so they have ablative wounds while being even more effective in CC if needed. The Inquisitor can also use Prescience on the unit to improve the DAKKA even more.

Coteaz rides with the larger Gravstroyer unit to give them interceptor.

The Psyback mobs and min destroyer squads can both take down vehicles as well as infantry reasonably well. The Psybacks take care of low armor save units while the destroyers nuke MEQ and TEQ.

Only issue is an IC cannot join a unit that contains Monstrous Creatures. Dominus gets around this by Formation rules, but you can't put regular ICs into them.

I think getting a Divination Psyker is critical to use Prescience to "fix" BS4 on, well, everything. Canticles will help one turn, but after that you'll want more rerolls.

BS3, I think you mean. But while it's unfortunate, I don't think Cult can hit the return threshold on points spent for a divination psyker as opposed to just adding more guns. By which I mean - factor the number of shots you get from a squad's re-roll assuming prescience and the point spent on the psyker to do it. Then see how many more guns you could get for those points, and the extra hits they'd provide. Compare.

So guys, it is obvious that the Kataphrons are supposed to be our Grav equipped MC killers. The prime target will Riptides, Wraithknights. The question I have is how do we prevent our Kataphrons from being destroyed by these MC's themselves?

If you go first, it is less of a huge deal, as you can buff the Kataphrons easily through psychic or canticles and shoot at least one of those MCs off the board turn 1.

If you aren't going first, there are problems. These MC's have some pretty devastating shooting by themselves that can easily wipe them turn 1. That isn't even counting the rest of the opponents army. So, what do we do? Do we keep them in reserve and hope they arrive turn 2?

 obsidiankatana wrote:
BS3, I think you mean. But while it's unfortunate, I don't think Cult can hit the return threshold on points spent for a divination psyker as opposed to just adding more guns. By which I mean - factor the number of shots you get from a squad's re-roll assuming prescience and the point spent on the psyker to do it. Then see how many more guns you could get for those points, and the extra hits they'd provide. Compare.

Coteaz in a unit of Grav Destroyers is only 100 points and probably way more effective than 2 Breachers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ultimentra wrote:
So guys, it is obvious that the Kataphrons are supposed to be our Grav equipped MC killers. The prime target will Riptides, Wraithknights. The question I have is how do we prevent our Kataphrons from being destroyed by these MC's themselves?

If you go first, it is less of a huge deal, as you can buff the Kataphrons easily through psychic or canticles and shoot at least one of those MCs off the board turn 1.

If you aren't going first, there are problems. These MC's have some pretty devastating shooting by themselves that can easily wipe them turn 1. That isn't even counting the rest of the opponents army. So, what do we do? Do we keep them in reserve and hope they arrive turn 2?

Shove em in Drop Pods, I guess.

Requizen wrote:
Coteaz in a unit of Grav Destroyers is only 100 points and probably way more effective than 2 Breachers.

So, Coteaz for 100pts nets you 4.5 hits in a 3man unit. They shoot 18 times, hit 9, re-roll 9 into 4.5 more, for a net of 13.5.

Ten points more is two Destroyers, who net you 6 more hits. First squad of three hits 9, second squad hits 6, for a net of 15. In addition, they increase the maximum number of hits and open up opportunities for a second target. However, no interceptor. From a raw hits per point perspective, Coteaz is not the answer here. Won't always be the case, but it's something to consider when list building.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Coteaz in a unit of Grav Destroyers is only 100 points and probably way more effective than 2 Breachers.

So, Coteaz for 100pts nets you 4.5 hits in a 3man unit. They shoot 18 times, hit 9, re-roll 9 into 4.5 more, for a net of 13.5.

Ten points more is two Destroyers, who net you 6 more hits. First squad of three hits 9, second squad hits 6, for a net of 15. In addition, they increase the maximum number of hits and open up opportunities for a second target. However, no interceptor. From a raw hits per point perspective, Coteaz is not the answer here. Won't always be the case, but it's something to consider when list building.

He also has his own gun and a Thunderhammer, as well as any other powers he rolls (including 4++ or full BS Overwatch), and the mega-interceptor. That's much more versatile overall than just 2 more dudes imo.

Also he can fit in a pod with them. If not in a pod the more larger the unit the more efficient per units buffs become

Requizen wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Coteaz in a unit of Grav Destroyers is only 100 points and probably way more effective than 2 Breachers.

So, Coteaz for 100pts nets you 4.5 hits in a 3man unit. They shoot 18 times, hit 9, re-roll 9 into 4.5 more, for a net of 13.5.

Ten points more is two Destroyers, who net you 6 more hits. First squad of three hits 9, second squad hits 6, for a net of 15. In addition, they increase the maximum number of hits and open up opportunities for a second target. However, no interceptor. From a raw hits per point perspective, Coteaz is not the answer here. Won't always be the case, but it's something to consider when list building.

He also has his own gun and a Thunderhammer, as well as any other powers he rolls (including 4++ or full BS Overwatch), and the mega-interceptor. That's much more versatile overall than just 2 more dudes imo.

This makes a lot of assumptions. Firstly, his gun is S4 AP- with variable shots. That's not all that impressive. Secondly, that he rolls the powers in question. Thirdly, that the D6 for warp pool is enough to attempt them. Lastly, that he successfully casts them. I've already mentioned the interceptor, and in fact stated that the benefit is outweighed only in pure shot count and target selection. Coteaz is variably versatile. More Kataphrons are reliably efficient. Again, not that psykers are never the right choice. Nor are more Kataphrons. But if your goal, as was previously discussed, is to "fix" the BS3 of Kataphrons - there is a mathematical method for determining whether you want Divination or more Servitors.

Sure, if your only goal is to fix that one thing then yes, there are specific points value formulas you can use. However it is not efficient to look at a unit in a bubble instead of holistically.

I might be able to get preferred enemy, however that is not as efficient as twin linking. However it helps me with wounds and in combat.

Coteaz has reroll seize, this can make a huge difference from the start of the game in addition to his psychic powers and over watch protection. Worried about deep striking d-scythes? He now keeps your unit completely safe. Wanting to run larger units? Now his points per hit get better.

He can also split off and leave the unit. Now it can claim two objectives. So on and so forth

In regards to putting the Magos and Inquisitor with the Kastellans, an IC cannot join a unit comprised SOLELY of monstrous creatures. It's how Tau players use Shadowsun with Riptides, since the unit has the option to take drones.

Since the datasmith is infantry, ICs can join the unit.

As to why I have Coteaz with the destroyers over more destroyers, it's to gain the boosted overwatch and interceptor. I was planning on using divination on the xenos Inquisitor to buff the kastellan robots, with the availability of 5+D6 warp charges per turn allowing Coteaz some leeway for his unit as well.

Just one thing I thought I would share.

I just got started building my battle servitors and they are very easy to assemble and magnetize, so if anyone has doubts that is the way to go!!

 TranSpyre wrote:

In regards to putting the Magos and Inquisitor with the Kastellans, an IC cannot join a unit comprised SOLELY of monstrous creatures. It's how Tau players use Shadowsun with Riptides, since the unit has the option to take drones.

Since the datasmith is infantry, ICs can join the unit.

Sadly, that's not the case. The wording of the Independent Character rule is as follows:

BRB: Independent Characters
Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures.

Contain, not made entirely of. I don't know how Tau shenanigans work (I think it's because it's a bodyguard unit or something?), but a normal IC cannot join a unit that has a MC or vehicle as part of it.

The formation gets around this by being, well, a formation. Much like the Conclave of the Burning One does for Necrons.

So I'm considering the potential of sticking Azrael with the shooty Electro Priests, I was thinking of that for the assault version, but they can get better invuln saves once they wipe a unit and Azrael's buff would become redundant even if he were to give them furious charge via warlord traits.

Hey guys im kind of new to the Mechanicum/Skitarii discussion and ive glanced through the forum though I am pretty sure ive missed a few things. I am considering taking a 2500pt. force of combined Mechanicum/Skitarii for my Imperial Forces (since 5000pts. of Elysians might be a little crazy lol) and wanted some insight if its not to much trouble. Questions I have are:

-Dragoons: I am considering running x2 units of 6 of these guys all with Phosphor Serpentas, is this recommended and is a full unit of x6 a good idea?

-Kataphron Destroyers & Breachers: I really like the look of these guys and think they could be utterly devastating, however they are pricy so I am thinking an MSU style approach with x2 units of each type with 3 per squad is the best way to run them.

-Dunecrawlers: I am tempted to run only x2 of these guys with Icarus Arrays to handle anti-air but is it smart to only take that few for that one role?

-HQ choices: Does the Mechanicum book have the same mechanic when it comes to trying to pick an HQ choice that they don't have any? Really appreciate any intel in that regard!

-Rangers or Vanguard?: I am really torn between these units for different reasons, I love the range capability on the Rangers but they really don't sync well with any of the Special Weapons outside the Arquebus. And the Vanguard are great for getting stuck in but are really expensive, especially with their Plasma Calivers. Are the Plasma weapons even worth taking?

Appreciate the feedback guys, thanks!

 gmaleron wrote:
Hey guys im kind of new to the Mechanicum/Skitarii discussion and ive glanced through the forum though I am pretty sure ive missed a few things. I am considering taking a 2500pt. force of combined Mechanicum/Skitarii for my Imperial Forces (since 5000pts. of Elysians might be a little crazy lol) and wanted some insight if its not to much trouble. Questions I have are:

-Dragoons: I am considering running x2 units of 6 of these guys all with Phosphor Serpentas, is this recommended and is a full unit of x6 a good idea?

A squad of 6 Dragoons is a bit overkill. I recommend squads of 3, with either all Radium Jezzails or all Taser Lance.

-Kataphron Destroyers & Breachers: I really like the look of these guys and think they could be utterly devastating, however they are pricy so I am thinking an MSU style approach with x2 units of each type with 3 per squad is the best way to run them.

MSU with Heavy Grav is the best way to run Destroyers. It will, however, be ineffective against Orks and Nids. YMMV depending on local meta. I can't really determine a good loadout for Breachers. I suppose the Arc will be good in a pure Cult Mech list, as Skitarii have more haywire for cheaper. Torsion Cannons are probably slightly better, but them being 1 shot at BS3 somewhat gimps them.

-Dunecrawlers: I am tempted to run only x2 of these guys with Icarus Arrays to handle anti-air but is it smart to only take that few for that one role?

That should be fine. They would be likely wasted points in a game with no flyers, however. There aren't really any subpar weapons on the Onager except for the HPB.

-HQ choices: Does the Mechanicum book have the same mechanic when it comes to trying to pick an HQ choice that they don't have any? Really appreciate any intel in that regard!

Cult Mech has an HQ, Skitarii doesn't. Take a Cult Mech CAD or Battle Congregation and a Skitarii Maniple detachment.

-Rangers or Vanguard?: I am really torn between these units for different reasons, I love the range capability on the Rangers but they really don't sync well with any of the Special Weapons outside the Arquebus. And the Vanguard are great for getting stuck in but are really expensive, especially with their Plasma Calivers. Are the Plasma weapons even worth taking?

Appreciate the feedback guys, thanks!

A 2:1 ratio of Vanguard:Rangers is good. Vanguard are better in almost every way, except range. Plasma is absolutely worth it.

I would normally agree with all of the above, EXCEPT Plasma is only worth it on Vanguard if you are running pure Skitarii. The Cult Mechanicus side has much better, and relatively cheaper AP2 at its disposal.

Vanguard w/Haywire are some of the best troops in the game, for their price. Any other load-out, while still good, is less amazing. Rapid fire, Haywire, on three guys, plus potentially a pistol on the Alpha is just hilarious. In a Pod these guys will earn back their points, twice over, on the first turn. :-p

I'm not planning on putting my Skitarii in a drop pod because I think it's a silly gimmick that doesn't fit the fluff at all. That and I'm not building this army to be super tournament level competitive, my Elysian Drop Troops 9 flyer list takes care of that!

Also I really like the Battle Maniple but I'm not a fan of the CC/Elite choices at all so will probably run x2 CAD or until I can see the Mechanicum Formations.

I imagine Elysians/Admech would be absolutely devastating. I'm actually putting together a D-99/stock Elysian list with CM and Skitarii, and it's the perfect combination of a glass cannon army that can get right in your enemy's face, since Elysians already act as a glass cannon.

Just my initial assessment but I think grav kataphron destroyers will be the go to allies for just about every imperial army. 400pts gets you a CAD with a base dominus (useful to devs or guard blobs because of relentless) and two units of 3 grav destroyers basically countering MC and GMC meta builds on the spot.

 buddha wrote:
Just my initial assessment but I think grav kataphron destroyers will be the go to allies for just about every imperial army. 400pts gets you a CAD with a base dominus (useful to devs or guard blobs because of relentless) and two units of 3 grav destroyers basically countering MC and GMC meta builds on the spot.

What does Relentless do for Devestators? He doesn't pass it to the unit.

Not to say an allied Dominus isn't great. He can repair vehicles, and with T5/FNP/2+/5++ and good shooting/assault he basically isn't a bad guy to put in anywhere.