Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Simple answer is it's not meant for small games.

Not everything is meant to be played small.

 Verviedi wrote:
Is it just me or is the War Convocation looking sub-par? I understand that the free upgrades are excellent in theory, but forcing the formation into a small game appears to gimp the army by forcing very easily killed MSU.

I see no use in free weapons when survivability upgrades are limited to Conversion Fields and Refractor Fields, and units are easily wiped even with the small inv save those things give.

I suppose I will have to see the Arcana Mechanicum list and Canticles to fully judge the formation.

That depends on the game size, I suppose. I think at 1850, it'll be a tight fight. At 2000 points is the sweet spot.

 Verviedi wrote:
Is it just me or is the War Convocation looking sub-par? I understand that the free upgrades are excellent in theory, but forcing the formation into a small game appears to gimp the army by forcing very easily killed MSU.

I see no use in free weapons when survivability upgrades are limited to Conversion Fields and Refractor Fields, and units are easily wiped even with the small inv save those things give.

I suppose I will have to see the Arcana Mechanicum list and Canticles to fully judge the formation.

I'd use it at about the 1750-1850pt level. It can very easily give a several-hundred-point advantage.

That's true. You're looking at around 600+ points of wargear. A lot of people are dismissing the "tax" of "one-of-everything" in the Skitarii formation. I personally am of the opinion that it simply requires you to play smart, since you can't spam any particular one thing.

The sense I'm getting from watching batreps and reading forum posts about the Skitarii are that they're meant to be played as a very cohesive force, with each unit acting as a force multiplier for another unit. From a design standpoint (presuming to think as a GW designer), this makes sense since all the books posit every unit as a "cog in the greater machine".

 Kanluwen wrote:
That is a really weird number of bots for a formation, since they come 2 to a box.

So I take it you missed the bit about using the FW Castellax I already own? 2+2+1 = 5.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
That is a really weird number of bots for a formation, since they come 2 to a box.

So I take it you missed the bit about using the FW Castellax I already own? 2+2+1 = 5.

I didn't miss it; the wording was just a bit strange on your post.

I follow you now, the unit is 4 robots with Datasmiths and a Magos Dominus.

So I'm thinking of taking a combo of Cult and Skitarii forces to supplement my Dark Angels. I'm torn between the Cohort Cybernetica and Elimination Maniple.

Cohort Cybernetica. The Elimination Maniple is a little underwhelming now that it's been revealed that you need to have wounded/pen'd the target in order for the +1BS/Ignores Cover to work. On the other hand, Cohort was additionally revealed that your programming comes into effect immediately, rather than the next turn. Combined with the fact that they are one unit, slap the IWND relic on one of the tech priests and you have a neigh-unkillable shooty unit with tons of AP3.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Cohort Cybernetica. The Elimination Maniple is a little underwhelming now that it's been revealed that you need to have wounded/pen'd the target in order for the +1BS/Ignores Cover to work. On the other hand, Cohort was additionally revealed that your programming comes into effect immediately, rather than the next turn. Combined with the fact that they are one unit, slap the IWND relic on one of the tech priests and you have a neigh-unkillable shooty unit with tons of AP3.

There's a Relic which does the same thing as the Cohort bonus; it just forces you to discard the previous Program for the remainder of the game.

The problem I am having right now is that even at MSU, the Cult Mechanicus "half" of what will obviously be one big book down the road, is so pricey that taking anything quickly over-takes your other faction in points.

I still think the Elimination Maniple is crazy good, and if used early with the Canticles which buffs shooting re-rolls, you have very good odds of plinking a bike off the table, and then letting Kataphron absolutely sweep the entire unit off the table. Especially if prior Lumingen, or an Auspex are taken into consideration.

The problem is, an Allied Cult Mechanicus detachment, with a MSU Elmination Maniple, is 920 points. If you're playing at 1500pts, that doesn't leave a lot let for Skitarii, etc...

To hit 1500pts, I feel like I can just barely cram in my 3, Arc Rifle units, and Flesh Tearer Blood Angels, to get them Pods.

The result is an army that has just the silliest shooting alpha strike in the history of 40k, but had damn well better take out every one of the opponents serious threats, as it will fold to a swift breeze. :-p

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Cohort Cybernetica. The Elimination Maniple is a little underwhelming now that it's been revealed that you need to have wounded/pen'd the target in order for the +1BS/Ignores Cover to work. On the other hand, Cohort was additionally revealed that your programming comes into effect immediately, rather than the next turn. Combined with the fact that they are one unit, slap the IWND relic on one of the tech priests and you have a neigh-unkillable shooty unit with tons of AP3.

There's a Relic which does the same thing as the Cohort bonus; it just forces you to discard the previous Program for the remainder of the game.

Which isn't exactly ideal if you want tons of dakka-dakka without overkill. There's no downside to doing the Cohort Cybernetica minus the Tech Priest Dominus tax (though, given that he functions like a datasmith and can get a Str 6 AP3 blast from his Eradication Ray, isn't really a tax). Cohort Cybernetica also has splitfire for the number of models equal to the number of datasmiths. So a min-sized Cohort would have 4 'bots, 2 datasmiths, 1 Dominus. Everyone can fire at a different target! Slap IWND on the whole formation (they're one unit), and you have a very solid, dependable, dakka-dakka firebase that can literally march up the middle and present a huge threat on T2/3.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Cohort Cybernetica. The Elimination Maniple is a little underwhelming now that it's been revealed that you need to have wounded/pen'd the target in order for the +1BS/Ignores Cover to work. On the other hand, Cohort was additionally revealed that your programming comes into effect immediately, rather than the next turn. Combined with the fact that they are one unit, slap the IWND relic on one of the tech priests and you have a neigh-unkillable shooty unit with tons of AP3.

I'd definitely be using it for higher point games, I think in lower points I'd be using mechanized Skitarii more, the cohort would definitely be footslogging with my main gunline and reducing cover saves everywhere for them. But I think the elimination maniple would be a bit cheaper.

Also where can I find the rules for new relics? I haven't been able to find any of them.

The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.

Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.

Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.

Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.

Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.

Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.

CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.

I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.

Requizen wrote:
The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.

Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.

Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.

Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.

Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.

Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.

CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.

I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.

I agree pretty well with almost everything you've said here. I don't think that the Kataphrons are that bad. Yes, they're not "let's spam a ton"-able, but they provide a pretty durable Troops choice. If it's one thing CM can do very, very well, it's provide tons of heavy weapons. The entire Troops choice carry the Heavy/Special weapon equivalent of other armies as standard, unlike other armies like Marines where your average Troops-choice weapon (bolter) is pretty much average against anything but IG and 'nid blobs, in comparison to Tau/Eldar/Necron/Skitarii basic weapons.

At the end of the day, I love AdMech too much that I'm still going to splurge on it, but to each their own, of course, and I know if there's a combined book in the future, I'm getting it. However, the way the 'dexes are being released now, it seems (in small bits and pieces), I don't think we're going to see a combined book anytime soon.

Requizen wrote:
The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.

Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.

Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.

Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.

Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.

Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.

CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.

I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points, you might be overlooking the effectiveness of the canticles. Also I think Electro Priests are pretty decent, the melee ones need a transport to work best, but once they wipe a unit out, they're pretty tough save wise, a blob of the shooty guys would be getting lots of shots with re-rolls and the massed shots would force a lot of wounds against t3 units.

But I do agree that this army does seem better as an ally, I'd definitely use more of them in bigger point games but probably in a few formations. Their HQ is great and cheap for what it does as well.

Kersplakastani wrote:

Requizen wrote:
The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.

Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.

Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.

Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.

Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.

Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.

CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.

I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points, you might be overlooking the effectiveness of the canticles. Also I think Electro Priests are pretty decent, the melee ones need a transport to work best, but once they wipe a unit out, they're pretty tough save wise, a blob of the shooty guys would be getting lots of shots with re-rolls and the massed shots would force a lot of wounds against t3 units.

But I do agree that this army does seem better as an ally, I'd definitely use more of them in bigger point games but probably in a few formations. Their HQ is great and cheap for what it does as well.

Well yeah Canticles are great... but really only if you have a lot of them on the table. Which means taking the Cohort formation is kinda bad as it makes you have less units on the table. You can only get the higher amount by spamming units, which really only "works" with Priests, so they end up being massive taxes that you need to get the better effects. The whole thing feels counter-intuitive overall.

I don't think Canticles require as much as you think.

As i've kept mentioning, adding the pretty excellent Elimination Maniple to a battle-forged list, means already including 5 units at the LEAST (An allied detachment needing hq + troop, and then the formation being made up of three units).

That means you can reasonably count on having Shrouded for the first turn of the game, for example, or re-rolling 1's and 2's to hit in shooting, which you very likely will be doing.

Those are really notable bonuses already.

Requizen wrote:

Kersplakastani wrote:

Requizen wrote:
The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.

Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.

Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.

Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.

Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.

Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.

CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.

I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points, you might be overlooking the effectiveness of the canticles. Also I think Electro Priests are pretty decent, the melee ones need a transport to work best, but once they wipe a unit out, they're pretty tough save wise, a blob of the shooty guys would be getting lots of shots with re-rolls and the massed shots would force a lot of wounds against t3 units.

But I do agree that this army does seem better as an ally, I'd definitely use more of them in bigger point games but probably in a few formations. Their HQ is great and cheap for what it does as well.

Well yeah Canticles are great... but really only if you have a lot of them on the table. Which means taking the Cohort formation is kinda bad as it makes you have less units on the table. You can only get the higher amount by spamming units, which really only "works" with Priests, so they end up being massive taxes that you need to get the better effects. The whole thing feels counter-intuitive overall.

Priests aren't a bad tax, nor are kataphrons. But the sheer amount of attacks both flavors of priest can put out is very nice. And buffing their strength would do wonders in assaults. The problem is getting them to said assault.

Also their point cost

How would you equip Kataphrons that would work alongside Vanguards? Would you do Plasma on the Vanguard, and Heavy Arc on the Kataphrons and Arc Rifles on the Vanguard?

The advantage I see to Heavy Arc on the Kataphrons is the additional range over an Arc Rifle, whereas the Plasma Caliver keeps the same range for both.

Just can't pass up all those grav shots.....

Trying to find a 4th unit to get the second tier canticles on the first turn at least....almost considering priests.....in an allied detachment anyway lol

Also up to 750 points of free stuff in my formation army. Ally in blood Angels for some pods, and we have a good time here

I am incredibly disappointed by the cost of the electro priest kit, I will never use their formation.

Slightly changing the subject back to Skitarii, as I just don't know anything. Is the Eradication Beamer on the Dunewalker any good? I sort of like it, but the Neutron laser kinda ups it a bit doesn't it?

The Eradication Beamer is fairly nice when you know you are going to have range--but the Neutron Laser is going to be better overall since it doesn't have the 'rangebands'.

 Leth wrote:
Just can't pass up all those grav shots.....

Trying to find a 4th unit to get the second tier canticles on the first turn at least....almost considering priests.....in an allied detachment anyway lol

Also up to 750 points of free stuff in my formation army. Ally in blood Angels for some pods, and we have a good time here

And you think this is a good thing for the game? 40k's continued path down the road of whom ever wins the go first roll, wins the game.

Any thoughts on Volkite vs Eradication in the Magos Dominus?

 KiloFiX wrote:
Any thoughts on Volkite vs Eradication in the Magos Dominus?

They're both really good, its a tough choice

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
Any thoughts on Volkite vs Eradication in the Magos Dominus?

They're both really good, its a tough choice

IMHO, the Volkite requires you to get too close to be effective, and I'm not sure you want to put your Warlord that close to your foes in a shooty army. The Ray lets you punch slightly further at 24", which is just outside of most units' threat range for charging, while retaining AP3 blast for if you're attached to dakkabots. Just my two cents, though.

That said, thoughts on the loadouts for Kataphrons?

Right now my Kataphrons will be mostly Graviton, with half Flamer (vs CC) and half Phosphor (vs Cover).

I have a few with a Plasma, just to have such but IMHO Graviton mostly trumps Plasma.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Right now my Kataphrons will be mostly Graviton, with half Flamer (vs CC) and half Phosphor (vs Cover).

I have a few with a Plasma, just to have such but IMHO Graviton mostly trumps Plasma.

I'm with you on this. Salvo 6 is nothing to sneeze at compared to Heavy 2/blast, and since it's still AP2 it's even more deadly against TEQs and the ilk. Higher range, can compensate against GEQs with sheer number of shots, and other units in the army can deal with horde better (hi dakkabots)... I guess I'm just stuck in an era where plasma and melta ruled (and str10 AP1 did not exist) and still feel the urge to slap plasma weapons on anything and everything, heh. Any use for the Heavy Arc Rifle? Or can Grav do the job just as well?