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Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.

buckero0 wrote:
Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.

No question is silly when you learn something from it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

buckero0 wrote:
Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.

No question is silly when you learn something from it.

Troof ^

Anyone had a chance to try the ironstrider formation yet? Im wary about it. Good luck in one game does not mean a good idea. I am also especially wary of having assault units stuck off the board, since they will have to wait a turn before they can assault when they actually do come in. You know, unless you are space marines where you can just choose to come in and assault on the first turn...

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

buckero0 wrote:
Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.

No question is silly when you learn something from it.

Troof ^

Anyone had a chance to try the ironstrider formation yet? Im wary about it. Good luck in one game does not mean a good idea. I am also especially wary of having assault units stuck off the board, since they will have to wait a turn before they can assault when they actually do come in. You know, unless you are space marines where you can just choose to come in and assault on the first turn...

Eeth, unless you're going against an alpha-strike army that can wipe your (relatively fragile) walkers off the board - not worth it. Ironstriders can get a charge in pretty easily on T1, if not T2. With the formation, you're still till at least T2 for them to come in, unless you start investing in reserves-manipulation. You also pointed out the obvious point that they can't assault after arriving, meaning at least a T3 charge, unless you're stuck with Jezzails, in which case you're gaining no benefit from them being in reserves, since they can very easily stay out of range of stuff that would kill them.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

buckero0 wrote:
Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.

No question is silly when you learn something from it.

Troof ^

Anyone had a chance to try the ironstrider formation yet? Im wary about it. Good luck in one game does not mean a good idea. I am also especially wary of having assault units stuck off the board, since they will have to wait a turn before they can assault when they actually do come in. You know, unless you are space marines where you can just choose to come in and assault on the first turn...

Eeth, unless you're going against an alpha-strike army that can wipe your (relatively fragile) walkers off the board - not worth it. Ironstriders can get a charge in pretty easily on T1, if not T2. With the formation, you're still till at least T2 for them to come in, unless you start investing in reserves-manipulation. You also pointed out the obvious point that they can't assault after arriving, meaning at least a T3 charge, unless you're stuck with Jezzails, in which case you're gaining no benefit from them being in reserves, since they can very easily stay out of range of stuff that would kill them.

Well turn 2 charge at the earliest, as they can enter on turn 1. Thing is, I wish they had a rule like skyhammer where you could just choose first or second turn. Don't need any of the assault after coming in nonsense, but a guarantee to come in first or second turn by choice would be nice. I ran it once, and the only reason I saw it as valid was if you do get the roll on turn 1. 3 dragoons is only 135 points and so throwing them directly into your opponent's backfield is a very useful distraction to the rest of your fragile units. Like I feel it worked well with the killclade, as having 6 goons in the player's backfield made him totally ignore the bigger threat of the killclade, allowing me a boardwide turn 2 charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, thinking of running this for next time, just to see just how bonkers it can be, thoughts?

Cohort Cybernetica
Dominus, Autocadeus of Arkhan Land, Eradication Beam, infoslave skull, conversion field 165
x5 kastelan robots, x5 twin linked heavy phosphur, x5 phosphur, x3 datasmith, (1 datasmith w/ raiment of the technomartyr, conversion field) 860
x5 kastelan robots, x5 twin linked heavy phosphur, x5 phosphur, x3 datasmith 825

TOTAL: 1850

Did any more come of the discussion about the Plasma Obliterator? Normally I wouldn't have bought one, but I snagged an auction for one nicely assembled and green-stuff'd, meaning the biggest reason to avoid the kit was taken out of the equation (plus it cost normal MSRP).

I'm wondering if it might fit a role as anti-horde, but Vanguard generic guns and other volume of fire seems to do this just fine in my games to date.

Other than "cool" and synergistic (thanks to removing Gets Hot) is there any reason to seriously consider running this bad-boy at 1850pts?

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...

You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)

I don't understand people who think that the only alternative to WAAC is not caring about winning at all. That there can be no middle ground. You understand that if I decide to buy some Nurglings or Electro Priests I'm going to do my damndest to try and make them work?

You can buy them, and you certainly have the right to try and make them work... But you should know that in doing so you're intentially gimping yourself and shouldn't call people with optimized lists WAAC.

You're absolutely right. 3 Heldrake CSM is just an optimized list, if he's taking a unit of Thousand Sons instead of that Heldrake then he's just making a mistake instead of playing right. WAAC doesn't exist.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...

You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)

I don't understand people who think that the only alternative to WAAC is not caring about winning at all. That there can be no middle ground. You understand that if I decide to buy some Nurglings or Electro Priests I'm going to do my damndest to try and make them work?

You can buy them, and you certainly have the right to try and make them work... But you should know that in doing so you're intentially gimping yourself and shouldn't call people with optimized lists WAAC.

You're absolutely right. 3 Heldrake CSM is just an optimized list, if he's taking a unit of Thousand Sons instead of that Heldrake then he's just making a mistake instead of playing right. WAAC doesn't exist.

Oh WAAC most certainly exists, people army-jump all the time to the perceived 'stronger' armies to get that edge.

That's competitive, not win WAAC. WIn at all costs is someone who is willing to lie cheat, hide rules, etc to win. Just because someone is competitive and trying to keep their edge.

All games do this. I play league of legends and patch to patch what champions are best changes creating a series of changes in other champions. No one bats an eye if you shift to something else to stay competitive at the top levels. Most people don't bother and just go with what they know.

It's not the same and it's kinda annoying that WAAC is being used so easily.

If you're constantly army jumping, looking for an edge on everyone with the new hotness.

That is certainly a mentality of Winning at All Costs

But this is highly off topic

 Leth wrote:
That's competitive, not win WAAC. WIn at all costs is someone who is willing to lie cheat, hide rules, etc to win. Just because someone is competitive and trying to keep their edge.

All games do this. I play league of legends and patch to patch what champions are best changes creating a series of changes in other champions. No one bats an eye if you shift to something else to stay competitive at the top levels. Most people don't bother and just go with what they know.

It's not the same and it's kinda annoying that WAAC is being used so easily.

Oh. My mistake. So let's try to not be so competitive about list building that we fail to even give electro priests a shake of the stick. I spent some time reviewing my Cult Mech codex and searching for hints as to what the logic behind the units must be and here's what I've come up with:

The Corpuscarii are clearly designed to be assault troops as well considering they still get exploding 6's in close combat and their weapon type is Assault, their range is short, and they still have the same hammer of wrath ability as the Fulgurite electro priest has. That combined with the Electro Priest Canticle confirms to me that both of them are assault troops, the Corpuscarii designed to soften up the enemy prior to charging as opposed to the Fulgurite which is just going to do the whole job in melee. The biggest difference between the two is that the Fulgurite have Concussive and Instant Death on a 6, which makes them monstrous creature killers, while the Corpuscarii seem to be more focused for dealing with lighter targets like infantry.

So the Corpuscarii have BS 4 with 2 shots, twin-linked. So let's say you have 10 of them. That means 20 dice are rolled, statistically at BS 4 you're going to get 7-8 misses that you then get to re-roll, lowering the total amount of misses to around 3. Out of 20. So with the 16-17 or so dice, about 3 of which are going to be a six, creating 6 extra hits aside from themselves. So now, with 10 models, you have created 23 Strength 4 hits to be resolved, and THEN you're going to charge in with Hammer of Wrath, with more exploding 6's on Strength 4, this would devastate light infantry such as orks, Tyranids, Guard, etc. It's designed to stand up to overwhelming numbers, not marines. Just like the Fulgurites should be sent against monsters, preferably after finishing off another unit that was weakened by shooting. These guys are both specialists, and their formation together is misleading and thrown in out of obligation by the looks of it.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Leth wrote:
That's competitive, not win WAAC. WIn at all costs is someone who is willing to lie cheat, hide rules, etc to win. Just because someone is competitive and trying to keep their edge.

All games do this. I play league of legends and patch to patch what champions are best changes creating a series of changes in other champions. No one bats an eye if you shift to something else to stay competitive at the top levels. Most people don't bother and just go with what they know.

It's not the same and it's kinda annoying that WAAC is being used so easily.

Oh. My mistake. So let's try to not be so competitive about list building that we fail to even give electro priests a shake of the stick. I spent some time reviewing my Cult Mech codex and searching for hints as to what the logic behind the units must be and here's what I've come up withf it.

I was not responding to you, I never said that you should not take whatever units you like. I was responding to the lumping of competitive players in with WAAC as if they are one and the same

So... A page and a half after this thread devolved into a discussion about WAAC gaming after I suggestion Skitarii Droppod + Skyhammer...

Can we discuss tactics?

 Enigwolf wrote:
So... A page and a half after this thread devolved into a discussion about WAAC gaming after I suggestion Skitarii Droppod + Skyhammer...

Can we discuss tactics?

Did you not read my last post?

Quarterdime wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
So... A page and a half after this thread devolved into a discussion about WAAC gaming after I suggestion Skitarii Droppod + Skyhammer...

Can we discuss tactics?

Did you not read my last post?

My apologies. I missed it skimming past the round-and-round debate posts.

Quarterdime wrote:
The Corpuscarii are clearly designed to be assault troops as well considering they still get exploding 6's in close combat and their weapon type is Assault, their range is short, and they still have the same hammer of wrath ability as the Fulgurite electro priest has. That combined with the Electro Priest Canticle confirms to me that both of them are assault troops, the Corpuscarii designed to soften up the enemy prior to charging as opposed to the Fulgurite which is just going to do the whole job in melee. The biggest difference between the two is that the Fulgurite have Concussive and Instant Death on a 6, which makes them monstrous creature killers, while the Corpuscarii seem to be more focused for dealing with lighter targets like infantry.

So the Corpuscarii have BS 4 with 2 shots, twin-linked. So let's say you have 10 of them. That means 20 dice are rolled, statistically at BS 4 you're going to get 7-8 misses that you then get to re-roll, lowering the total amount of misses to around 3. Out of 20. So with the 16-17 or so dice, about 3 of which are going to be a six, creating 6 extra hits aside from themselves. So now, with 10 models, you have created 23 Strength 4 hits to be resolved, and THEN you're going to charge in with Hammer of Wrath, with more exploding 6's on Strength 4, this would devastate light infantry such as orks, Tyranids, Guard, etc. It's designed to stand up to overwhelming numbers, not marines. Just like the Fulgurites should be sent against monsters, preferably after finishing off another unit that was weakened by shooting. These guys are both specialists, and their formation together is misleading and thrown in out of obligation by the looks of it.

Hm. If the Corpuscarii do make it into close combat, they do fill one whole that the CM codex has: hoard armies. Most of their weapons are very dakka with AP3 or AP2 on average, but nothing reliable to kill hoards (unless you're talking about cognis flamers or incendine combusters...)

I have two problems with Corpuscarii, their cost and their slot. I feel they should not only be 4 points cheaper, but I really don't see why they aren't a troop choice. Having them as a troop would not only make them more likely to be used, but 18 points is a pretty heavy tax for a unit that is T3 and only has a 5++ 5+++ save. IF they get into range to blast away and then assault, they can do some real damage but they need to get there. I hate to suggest drop pods, but I am overtly surprised that cult has no delivery system for a 6" move, 12" range foot unit.

The issue with Corpuscarii to me is that you can easily get Allies to fill in the anti-horde component of your army -- Skitarii vanguard put out a lot of shots at a better range than CEPriests, are half as expensive per model, and come 10 to a box instead of only 5. CEPriests I can only see being useful if you are running a solely Mechanicus army, because then you are indeed pretty starved for anti-horde options. However, since allying feels very right for Mechanicus (bringing really good tough firepower from Destroyers and Robots) and most of the allies you'll use are significantly better at anti-horde than Cult Mechanicus is, I can't see CEPriests being really useful. Most of the rest of the imperium is good at anti-horde, from massed bolter marines to massed lasguns to Skitarii firepower to Eldar S6.

Fulgurites have worse problems for me, because the sequence of events required to make them worthwhile is extremely specific -- they need to get survive and get into CC with a weak unit (as a 6" move unit) kill that unit in order to get a good save that then they can only really take advantage of if they then manage to catch an MC in close combat. Furthermore, Monstrous Creatures are probably the easiest things for Mechanicus to deal with -- the S6 AP3 from the robots and the mass grav-shots will annihilate any ground MC, which is all that the SEPriests can get into CC with. At least the CEPriests get to put out a lot of attacks/shots against horde armies.

Thats the main electro priest problem, they do things units that cost less and are more survivable with longer range or better guns/close combat for a higher points price

They're flat out not good units pure numbers wise, for any situation

Your Kastellans putting out 12+ shots and double shot torrent flamers not enough to kill hordes?

Cult mech is self sufficient. Kataphrons kill MCs, Breachers kill vehicles and Kastellans kill infantry.

They are vastly improved with allies though. I feel their weakness is dedicated assault ( which is what Knights are for) and the psychic phase. (Conclave anyone?)

My army will be cult-only... Also, it's important to note that the fulgurite are melee anti-MC, while the alternatives are ranged. If the monstrous creature has the power to remain in combat for most of the game, then the cult would be seriously threatened by that. They could very well serve as a bubble wrap for servitors or the Dominus, defending them from a combat-happy Wraithknight.

Maximum charge range of WK - 24''.

Maximum firing range of Heavy Grav Cannons - 30''.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Maximum charge range of WK - 24''.

Maximum firing range of Heavy Grav Cannons - 30''.

What I'm telling you is that there's no guarantee that I'll even have enough guns free to shoot at it with... If some warp spiders, swooping hawks, jetbikes, or anything decides to lock my anything in close combat, then the wraithknight will be largely free to approach. Now there's a happy detail in that situation for the cult. If the Fulgurite are there, then those faster weaker units that the Eldar could tie me up with quickly actually do so, they'll be weak enough in melee for my Fulgurites to beat and THEN THEY GET THE 3++ before the Wraithknight made it there! It's almost like the electro priests were made for the sole purpose of covering a pure cult army's blind spots.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Maximum charge range of WK - 24''.

Maximum firing range of Heavy Grav Cannons - 30''.

What I'm telling you is that there's no guarantee that I'll even have enough guns free to shoot at it with... If some warp spiders, swooping hawks, jetbikes, or anything decides to lock my anything in close combat, then the wraithknight will be largely free to approach. Now there's a happy detail in that situation for the cult. If the Fulgurite are there, then those faster weaker units that the Eldar could tie me up with quickly actually do so, they'll be weak enough in melee for my Fulgurites to beat and THEN THEY GET THE 3++ before the Wraithknight made it there! It's almost like the electro priests were made for the sole purpose of covering a pure cult army's blind spots.

Unless that unit locking the Fulgurites in is, in fact, Warp Spiders or Jetbikes. Booth of whom carry 3+ saves and hit first. There's little guarantee the Fulgurites win that bout without Canticle assistance. Of course, this also assumes the Fulgurites weren't simply drowned in the S6 firepower eldar know and love. But hey, in a scenario where all of your guns worth killing a Wraithknight can't because they shot at something else or are engaged in close combat, someone was silly enough to run a small unit directly into CC with a unit incapable of anything but CC, lost that fight, THEN brought a Wraithknight close enough to be charged by the things with 3++ and instant death... yes, Fulgurites would be decent.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Maximum charge range of WK - 24''.

Maximum firing range of Heavy Grav Cannons - 30''.

What I'm telling you is that there's no guarantee that I'll even have enough guns free to shoot at it with... If some warp spiders, swooping hawks, jetbikes, or anything decides to lock my anything in close combat, then the wraithknight will be largely free to approach. Now there's a happy detail in that situation for the cult. If the Fulgurite are there, then those faster weaker units that the Eldar could tie me up with quickly actually do so, they'll be weak enough in melee for my Fulgurites to beat and THEN THEY GET THE 3++ before the Wraithknight made it there! It's almost like the electro priests were made for the sole purpose of covering a pure cult army's blind spots.

Unless that unit locking the Fulgurites in is, in fact, Warp Spiders or Jetbikes. Booth of whom carry 3+ saves and hit first. There's little guarantee the Fulgurites win that bout without Canticle assistance. Of course, this also assumes the Fulgurites weren't simply drowned in the S6 firepower eldar know and love. But hey, in a scenario where all of your guns worth killing a Wraithknight can't because they shot at something else or are engaged in close combat, someone was silly enough to run a small unit directly into CC with a unit incapable of anything but CC, lost that fight, THEN brought a Wraithknight close enough to be charged by the things with 3++ and instant death... yes, Fulgurites would be decent.

The point being that won't happen and that's why.

 Quarterdime wrote:
The point being that won't happen and that's why.

Riveting rebuttal.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Maximum charge range of WK - 24''.

Maximum firing range of Heavy Grav Cannons - 30''.

What I'm telling you is that there's no guarantee that I'll even have enough guns free to shoot at it with... If some warp spiders, swooping hawks, jetbikes, or anything decides to lock my anything in close combat, then the wraithknight will be largely free to approach. Now there's a happy detail in that situation for the cult. If the Fulgurite are there, then those faster weaker units that the Eldar could tie me up with quickly actually do so, they'll be weak enough in melee for my Fulgurites to beat and THEN THEY GET THE 3++ before the Wraithknight made it there! It's almost like the electro priests were made for the sole purpose of covering a pure cult army's blind spots.

Unless that unit locking the Fulgurites in is, in fact, Warp Spiders or Jetbikes. Booth of whom carry 3+ saves and hit first. There's little guarantee the Fulgurites win that bout without Canticle assistance. Of course, this also assumes the Fulgurites weren't simply drowned in the S6 firepower eldar know and love. But hey, in a scenario where all of your guns worth killing a Wraithknight can't because they shot at something else or are engaged in close combat, someone was silly enough to run a small unit directly into CC with a unit incapable of anything but CC, lost that fight, THEN brought a Wraithknight close enough to be charged by the things with 3++ and instant death... yes, Fulgurites would be decent.

The point being that won't happen and that's why.

Look, you want to use Electro-Priests. We get it. No one is going to stop you from doing so at gunpoint. But you're not going to magically turn anyone around into thinking they're great when it's very, very clear that they're not. You can use them to fill certain roles in a sub-par manner. If that's fine by you, go for it. But you haven't found some revolutionary way to play Cult Mechanicus, just a poor one.

In a War Convocation, allied taxipods are one of the stronger options. Are there any there allied combination that might beat or at least match up with having the taxis? I was thinking of including a librarius conclave for prescience/perfect timing on kataphrons and maybe if necc, invisibility on the IK to tie up any deathstar.

I played a War Convocation recently and was horrified at how effective it was. Like, I felt bad for both of my opponents in the two games that I played.

They were 2500 points, with 840 points of Adepta Sororitas and 1660 for the War Convocation.

Deshkar wrote:
In a War Convocation, allied taxipods are one of the stronger options. Are there any there allied combination that might beat or at least match up with having the taxis? I was thinking of including a librarius conclave for prescience/perfect timing on kataphrons and maybe if necc, invisibility on the IK to tie up any deathstar.

I haven't played with my force yet (Still being painted), but my theories have so far been these:

1. Drop pod taxi for Kataphrons and Vanguard.

2. Any fortification with CM detachment, mostly the Plasma Obliterator (loses get hots, gets canticles, etc).

3. Culexus/Callidus Assassins to break up deathstars or distract the enemy without needing to invest in a crap ton of points on psykers. Throw in a Coteaz if needed.

4. Taking a separate Cohort of Kastellans formation with second Dominus to get IWND relic and cognis on them creating a near unkillable unit.

As mentioned before, war congregation vs new marines with skyhammer