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Danny slag wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Don't build breachers, build gravbots every time.

If they were both an option in the holy requisition, yes. But they're not. So in a vacuum you'd be right, but with an army that walks everywhere being able to deepstrike something reliably on the other table edge is worth consideration, and in that case your. Hockey isn't destroyers.

build gravbots and don't play Holy Requisition.

 axisofentropy wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Don't build breachers, build gravbots every time.

If they were both an option in the holy requisition, yes. But they're not. So in a vacuum you'd be right, but with an army that walks everywhere being able to deepstrike something reliably on the other table edge is worth consideration, and in that case your. Hockey isn't destroyers.

build gravbots and don't play Holy Requisition.

Again, you're not necessarily wrong, but you're acting as if the holy requisition isn't a very viable option, and it is. it provides something you can't get elsewhere in the army, you have to consider units in context of an actual game not in a vacuum.

I dislike the mentality that pervades warhammer that there is only ever one good option, it's short sighted.

Question now is if the holy requisition is better or worse than adding some deathwatch or grey knights from imperial agents?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Question now is if the holy requisition is better or worse than adding some deathwatch or grey knights from imperial agents?

Deathwatch give potential alpha strike capabilities on top of the flier being pretty decent whilst Grey Knights help out a bit in the Psychic Phase, but I think we pack enough firepower to not care about the latter. Dropping Marines in the backfield with little tax is awesome though, especially with Frag Cannons and spamming wounds with the special ammo.

Hey guys, I didn't read all the thread obviously, but as I see in the last pages you see mobility as an issue. Now, I didn't get to play a full game yet (only Kill Team, my 1000 pts list is waiting for my paintbrush), but what do you think about the Ironstrider Cavaliers formation ? Consisting of 2 units of Dragoons and one of Ballistarii, you get the flank attack at turn 1 with a really good chance to succeed your roll, and that means it would be a nice threat to give to the enemy right ? He has to choose between firing at your troops and allow the Ironstriders to charge/fire at his key units, or try to bring them down, and that leaves room to breathe to your guys.

Personally I'll run my list with 10 Vanguards /w plasma, 5 Rangers /w 2 Arquebii, 5 Rangers, one Dragoon, all that allied to 3 grav Destroyers, a Techpriest and a Kastelan Maniple. If I let the Kastelan and the servitors take the hits that should protect most of my guys right ? Really looking forward to see these Kastelan in action, love their models !

The formation ain't too bad. It can get in T2 -3 charges with relative ease. Only issue is that the Ballistarii is mostly a tax. So I guess it depends how much you like that one particular unit. Dragoons are always sexy though.

Yes I keep reading that Ballistarii ain't that good. Still tho, they can help destroy a tank with the twin-linked Cognis Lascannon if he have the shot, to be finished by a charge of Dragoons. If you lack any anti-tank weaponry other than that, but you shouldn't rely only on them to destroy armor though.

I think the real benefit of the formation is that it allows you to take more Dragoons without having to take a second maniple. The Ballistarii is an annoying tax in a vacuum, but less annoying when contextualized - it essentially doubles your FA slots. The extra rules for the formation are ok (some people don't like the outflank), but the extra Dragoons themselves are boss, no question, especially if you're aiming for an MSU build.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Question now is if the holy requisition is better or worse than adding some deathwatch or grey knights from imperial agents?

Deathwatch give potential alpha strike capabilities on top of the flier being pretty decent whilst Grey Knights help out a bit in the Psychic Phase, but I think we pack enough firepower to not care about the latter. Dropping Marines in the backfield with little tax is awesome though, especially with Frag Cannons and spamming wounds with the special ammo.

i was looking at that very same thing. Doing some comparisons though my personal opinion, colored by never actually trying this so grain of salt, is that scions might be a better version of the deathwatch trick. you can get several min squads, with 2 meltas each to drop in and screw up the enemies line.
Where the marines have the advantage is the drop pods, but then you're spending a lot more for 2 squads of deathwatch than 3 of scions, but you do get what you pay for.

The advantage of the requisition would be that your anti vehicle weapons aren't melta range, they're long range. So they can drop right on an objective with no scatter, and if they eliminate their primary target they can keep fulfilling their primary anti vehicle role if they survive, where as deathwatch or scions can't really stay on the objective they drop to while still reaching out to touch someone.

It's an interesting question and i think all three options would provide you with something good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think the real benefit of the formation is that it allows you to take more Dragoons without having to take a second maniple. The Ballistarii is an annoying tax in a vacuum, but less annoying when contextualized - it essentially doubles your FA slots. The extra rules for the formation are ok (some people don't like the outflank), but the extra Dragoons themselves are boss, no question, especially if you're aiming for an MSU build.

This here. The ballistari is over-costed. But i've seen games where they did well because your opponent has to decide if they want to shoot something that's probably overkill at it instead of shooting at one of your more important units. If they don't it does have the ability to do damage.

It's also an edge case but I saw a batt-rep where one charged an expensive unit that had no way to hurt it's even measly armor, and since neither was going to hurt the other it tarpitted until eventually the ballistari killed one single guy, the unit ran and it caught them, killing about 6 times it's own point cost.

Danny slag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Question now is if the holy requisition is better or worse than adding some deathwatch or grey knights from imperial agents?

Deathwatch give potential alpha strike capabilities on top of the flier being pretty decent whilst Grey Knights help out a bit in the Psychic Phase, but I think we pack enough firepower to not care about the latter. Dropping Marines in the backfield with little tax is awesome though, especially with Frag Cannons and spamming wounds with the special ammo.

i was looking at that very same thing. Doing some comparisons though my personal opinion, colored by never actually trying this so grain of salt, is that scions might be a better version of the deathwatch trick. you can get several min squads, with 2 meltas each to drop in and screw up the enemies line.
Where the marines have the advantage is the drop pods, but then you're spending a lot more for 2 squads of deathwatch than 3 of scions, but you do get what you pay for.

The advantage of the requisition would be that your anti vehicle weapons aren't melta range, they're long range. So they can drop right on an objective with no scatter, and if they eliminate their primary target they can keep fulfilling their primary anti vehicle role if they survive, where as deathwatch or scions can't really stay on the objective they drop to while still reaching out to touch someone.

It's an interesting question and i think all three options would provide you with something good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think the real benefit of the formation is that it allows you to take more Dragoons without having to take a second maniple. The Ballistarii is an annoying tax in a vacuum, but less annoying when contextualized - it essentially doubles your FA slots. The extra rules for the formation are ok (some people don't like the outflank), but the extra Dragoons themselves are boss, no question, especially if you're aiming for an MSU build.

This here. The ballistari is over-costed. But i've seen games where they did well because your opponent has to decide if they want to shoot something that's probably overkill at it instead of shooting at one of your more important units. If they don't it does have the ability to do damage.

It's also an edge case but I saw a batt-rep where one charged an expensive unit that had no way to hurt it's even measly armor, and since neither was going to hurt the other it tarpitted until eventually the ballistari killed one single guy, the unit ran and it caught them, killing about 6 times it's own point cost.

While that is true about Scions vs Deathwatch, one thing to keep in mind is the Start Collecting formation for Scions. You can potentially keep reusing the Scions for a relationship Ely cheap price and you can steal the Taurox away from them for your own dudes.

Hey guys, what is your opinions on Sicarians ? I got 5 of them that I mounted as Infiltrators with Taser goads and Flechette blasters, but I didn't include them in my 1000 pts list. An excellent player from my local store says they're one of the worst units of the Skitarii, but better than Ruststalkers. Why so ? Are they overpriced ? Too squishy ? It's true that I'm hesitant to paying 185 pts for 5 T3 2W models, but what do I know. Anyone had any experience with these strider guys ?

So, with Imperial Agents, can the War Convocation take Servitors now? There's something perverse about the idea of taking 2 Plasma Cannons for 20 points, Mindlock be damned.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So, with Imperial Agents, can the War Convocation take Servitors now? There's something perverse about the idea of taking 2 Plasma Cannons for 20 points, Mindlock be damned.

One iteration of my Scion/Skitarii/Inquisitor list had 3 Servitors with Plasma Cannons for what, 60? They did alright. You can't expect much for those points, and getting them cheaper will only make them better.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So, with Imperial Agents, can the War Convocation take Servitors now? There's something perverse about the idea of taking 2 Plasma Cannons for 20 points, Mindlock be damned.

This is a great question. They have the same faction name and symbol, so I believe you can! You may also take a Tech-Priest Enginseer in a Cult Mechanicus detachment, which is much cheaper than a Tech-Priest Dominus!

Quick question here: if I were to fight a war convocation, what would be the best way to handle it ?
My guess is to shoots the weakest units first, in order to deny the canticles etc... and avoiding the knight as much as I could ?

Moreover, I shouldn't bring big AV14 tanks, because of all the grav/haywire.

Is that right ?

 godardc wrote:
Quick question here: if I were to fight a war convocation, what would be the best way to handle it ?
My guess is to shoots the weakest units first, in order to deny the canticles etc... and avoiding the knight as much as I could ?

Moreover, I shouldn't bring big AV14 tanks, because of all the grav/haywire.

Is that right ?

What're you using?

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey guys, what is your opinions on Sicarians ? I got 5 of them that I mounted as Infiltrators with Taser goads and Flechette blasters, but I didn't include them in my 1000 pts list. An excellent player from my local store says they're one of the worst units of the Skitarii, but better than Ruststalkers. Why so ? Are they overpriced ? Too squishy ? It's true that I'm hesitant to paying 185 pts for 5 T3 2W models, but what do I know. Anyone had any experience with these strider guys ?

i think you encountered a case of the "either a unit is insanely OP on paper or it's totally 100% worthless" that pervades gaming communities. lol

They have problems, feel no pain and 2 wounds on a model with only T3 means your feel no pain and 2 wounds don't really count much as they're doubled out by strength 6 guns. But, that still means that your opponent is having to use it's high strength guns for this as regular line troop weapons will still usually give you your armor save, fnp and 2 wounds.

I prefer infiltrators to ruststalkers because they can function in close range shooting, and the disruption aura is really nice. They're a force multiplier so their usefulness can't really be understood by themselves.

They're definitely not awful, but they only really work in concert with good deployment and with other units. Deep strike some allies to disrupt your enemies lines long enough to get the stalkers up the board. use them to counter-charge any melee units that come after your vanguard/rangers, things like that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Quick question here: if I were to fight a war convocation, what would be the best way to handle it ?
My guess is to shoots the weakest units first, in order to deny the canticles etc... and avoiding the knight as much as I could ?

Moreover, I shouldn't bring big AV14 tanks, because of all the grav/haywire.

Is that right ?

What're you using?

Ultramarines or Imperial Guard armoured company.
However, I don't own any centurion or bike.

Probably a demi company with a first company task force.

Unless you're getting all the free Rhinos, skip them and go straight for pods.

What I'm thinking for 1850:

Basic War Convocation.
Take 2 Enginseers instead of a Dominus, and two units of Plasma Servitors.
Take a Haemotrope Reactor and Void Shield.

Fill up with leftovers.

Probably something that can assault without getting shot too much. Genestealer Cult might be good, or that Ravenguard Strike Force, or Khorne demonkin maybe?

Danny slag wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey guys, what is your opinions on Sicarians ? I got 5 of them that I mounted as Infiltrators with Taser goads and Flechette blasters, but I didn't include them in my 1000 pts list. An excellent player from my local store says they're one of the worst units of the Skitarii, but better than Ruststalkers. Why so ? Are they overpriced ? Too squishy ? It's true that I'm hesitant to paying 185 pts for 5 T3 2W models, but what do I know. Anyone had any experience with these strider guys ?

i think you encountered a case of the "either a unit is insanely OP on paper or it's totally 100% worthless" that pervades gaming communities. lol

They have problems, feel no pain and 2 wounds on a model with only T3 means your feel no pain and 2 wounds don't really count much as they're doubled out by strength 6 guns. But, that still means that your opponent is having to use it's high strength guns for this as regular line troop weapons will still usually give you your armor save, fnp and 2 wounds.

I prefer infiltrators to ruststalkers because they can function in close range shooting, and the disruption aura is really nice. They're a force multiplier so their usefulness can't really be understood by themselves.

They're definitely not awful, but they only really work in concert with good deployment and with other units. Deep strike some allies to disrupt your enemies lines long enough to get the stalkers up the board. use them to counter-charge any melee units that come after your vanguard/rangers, things like that.

Thing is, I'm really going to play with a lot of shooting, but I still need some CC units to protects my shooters so I don't get butchered by turn 3 (Assault Marines are really indeed fast haha), and I think they'd be good in that role with their aura. However, I feel Ruststalkers might be better used in offense with their grenades and AP-ignoring possibilities. But Infiltrators have Infiltrate and Stealth, so they tend to be better as offensive choices. I'd need two units of 5 to protect my gunlines efficiently, except if my Kastelans are here, because no one would charge a Kastelan without a lot of though guys.

With Belisarus Cawl coming out in the following days and his fantastic stats I was thinking of different ways to field this badass monstrosity.
As he is a pretty short ranged focused character I was thinking of using him with the "Holy Requisitioner" Formation.
Allowing him to deep strike into your opponents line with several Kataphron Breachers will surely make short work of any vehicles protecting an objective and since Belisarus Cawl is quite the badass in cc you could use him in the following turn to take out any group of infantry that also stands nearby. Also love that he can increase the BS of the Breachers while using the Canticles to make them re-roll ones (and twos) to hit. In combination with Cawl this formation could easily drop two enemy vehicles when coming on the table, while a third might also be possible with Cawl's Solar Atomizer, which is actually very good.
Another formation could have been the Cohort Cybernetica with Cawl and the Kastelan Robots silently marching forwards so that they can crush anything on close combat. While this one also seems like a ton of fun, I think having Cawl foot slogging around for serveral turns is not the best option.

So...the Conclave Acquisitorius and Grand Convocation both look vastly inferior to the War Convocation, and they're using the same pattern introduced in Wrath of Magnus of "take the maximum number of choices in this detachment to get a bonus." For the Grand Convocation, this means getting access to Csnticles for your Skitarii...only problem is you have to take 4 Lords of War first!

Cawl looks like an amusing ally if you want to run semi-mech Guard, but his bonuses don't do much for the rest of your army.

Can Cawl join the Cybernetica formation? That seems bad.

He also can't deep strike with Holy Requisitioner because he doesn't have deep strike and isn't a member of the formation which grants it to him.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can Cawl join the Cybernetica formation? That seems bad.

He also can't deep strike with Holy Requisitioner because he doesn't have deep strike and isn't a member of the formation which grants it to him.

There was the assumption that Cawl can join any formation while counting as a Tech-Priest Dominus, Just like how Greyfax counts as an Inquisitor for any formation that allows an inquisitor.

"Celestine, Inquistor Greyfax and Belisarius Cawl can be included as an HQ choice for any Army of the Imperium Combined Arms or Allied Detachments (specifically), regardless of faction! In addition, Belisarius Cawl can replace any Tech-Priest Dominus in any existing Cult Mechanicus Formation, and Inquisitor Greyfax can replace an Inquisitor in any Inquisitorial Formation." Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/01/fall-cadia-imperial-characters-rules.html

 Arlen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can Cawl join the Cybernetica formation? That seems bad.

He also can't deep strike with Holy Requisitioner because he doesn't have deep strike and isn't a member of the formation which grants it to him.

There was the assumption that Cawl can join any formation while counting as a Tech-Priest Dominus, Just like how Greyfax counts as an Inquisitor for any formation that allows an inquisitor.

"Celestine, Inquistor Greyfax and Belisarius Cawl can be included as an HQ choice for any Army of the Imperium Combined Arms or Allied Detachments (specifically), regardless of faction! In addition, Belisarius Cawl can replace any Tech-Priest Dominus in any existing Cult Mechanicus Formation, and Inquisitor Greyfax can replace an Inquisitor in any Inquisitorial Formation." Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/01/fall-cadia-imperial-characters-rules.html

Oh! Well in that case... >

Yeah, Holy Requisitioner seems perfect for getting him up and close

I'm debating wether or not he would be good in a cohort cybernetica. He can't heal anyone else like a dominus can, and he can only give IWND once per game with canticles. on the other hand, taking him in that formation to tank, while giving a datasmith the multi-rule relic could be good, but that may be too many points for what you get. the extra ballistic skill may be worth while then.

really the biggest head-scratcher is how to use the multi-rule relic and what it would be great with.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

really the biggest head-scratcher is how to use the multi-rule relic and what it would be great with.

I'd probably say coteaz attached to something aweful like grav destroyers a war convo.