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 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Meat shield, hes too slow to be a real assault unit

interesting question now; if he attaches to a unit of sicarians, does he get dune strider as it's a special rule? if so then that could make him a touch faster.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
interesting question now; if he attaches to a unit of sicarians, does he get dune strider as it's a special rule? if so then that could make him a touch faster.

I really don't believe that rule can be shared. He might get Scout from the Skitarii Maniple though, that's something.

I think Bunker with Escape Hatch is a mandatory upgrade if you are going to run a CawlConvocation. Cawl can't keep up with any Dunestrider/Scout units at deployment, but if you leap him out of the hatch then he can claim coherency after the first move and charge on the second turn.

Deploy:
Cawl and Vanguard in Bunker
Sicarians on the side scout up

Move 1:
Move Cawl and Vanguard out of Hatch, declare them separate units
Move Sicarians within coherency to Cawl, declare them to be same unit

Cawl is a meat shield (and among the best ones for the record) but really comes into his own in a cohort cybernetica formation though you are investing likely half your points into the unit.

 dan2026 wrote:
What unit would Cawl be best attached to?

Any thoughts on where he might be the most effective?

I believe the best place for Cawl is the HQ in a Holy Requisitioner Formation. This allows him to deep strike without scatter into your opponents back field and to bring two or three units of Breachers with him. It also insures that he should have a nice juicy target in range for his Solar Atomizer. You need two units of Breachers, have one unit of four and one unit of five, have Cawl join the unit of five and hope your opponent tries to clear them from his backfield!

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
What unit would Cawl be best attached to?

Any thoughts on where he might be the most effective?

I believe the best place for Cawl is the HQ in a Holy Requisitioner Formation. This allows him to deep strike without scatter into your opponents back field and to bring two or three units of Breachers with him. It also insures that he should have a nice juicy target in range for his Solar Atomizer. You need two units of Breachers, have one unit of four and one unit of five, have Cawl join the unit of five and hope your opponent tries to clear them from his backfield!

I've thought about this. But do you really want Breachers so close to the enemy?
They seem more useful as ranged anti vehicle, than combat.

Indeed they are quite underwhelming in CC, even with the weapon that allows for one attack at S10 AP2, it's still one attack. Maybe give them Cognis with the Memento-Mortispex or the Raiment of the Technomartyr if you want some security, and remember you don't scatter only as long as you stay within 6" of an objective.

On another subject, do you guys have trust issues with your regular Skitarii footmen ? I'm starting to think they are not really effective at all just because of their flimsiness. Okay the two games I played were against a list with loads of Scatterbikes and the other was a 1350 pts game with a Knight, 3 Vindicators and 9 Obliteratii, so there WAS a lot of S6+ flying around. Next time I'm facing this dreadful Grey Knights list full of S6 AP4 flamers and Torrent flamers so I expect another genocide of cyborgs. I feel like even at low points games there's always a few things that will wreck whole units in one turn and it's starting to be irritating. I love the models and their rules, and my Vanguards are quite effective sometimes when they get to shoot, but it's becoming masochism to field them I feel. Same for the Infiltrators, what good is having 2 Wounds when everyone and their dogs hits or shoots at S6 ?

I'm not really fan of Kataphrons but I'm considering switching my main force to Cult Mechanicus with allied Skitarii if this goes on. I like the feeling of safety in numbers the Skitarii provide me but if they all die in one shooting phase without any saves it's just dreadfully sad to me.

Thoughts about this ? Anyone else feels like this ? Is it just bad matchups ?

S6 AP4 flamers sound like a nightmare for Skitarii.

And to be honest you can't go wrong with Grav Destroyers.
I imagine they will chew threw Grey Knights nicely.
Outrange and outshoot them.

I think the problem with regular Skitarii is lack of a transport.
Its alright having metal legs to walk across the battlefield until someone shoots them off.
Its the same problem the Cult Electro Priests have.

Back to talking about Breachers. I don't think I would put Cawi with them and deep strike. It doesn't feel right.
Still not sure exactly where to place him. For all his strength he's an odd one to place.

I'm toying with the idea of starting Cawl with a vanguard unit for the scout move, then split him off on his own a few inches ahead. He's got an MC stat line, he should be able to hold his own and he can always drop back into the vanguards if he soaks too many wounds. Gives Cawl full toughness benefit and forces the opponent to put more thought into their targeting.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
I'm toying with the idea of starting Cawl with a vanguard unit for the scout move, then split him off on his own a few inches ahead. He's got an MC stat line, he should be able to hold his own and he can always drop back into the vanguards if he soaks too many wounds. Gives Cawl full toughness benefit and forces the opponent to put more thought into their targeting.

I am pretty sure Independent Characters without 'scout' don't gain 'scout' by being in a unit that has it.

Wulfey wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
I'm toying with the idea of starting Cawl with a vanguard unit for the scout move, then split him off on his own a few inches ahead. He's got an MC stat line, he should be able to hold his own and he can always drop back into the vanguards if he soaks too many wounds. Gives Cawl full toughness benefit and forces the opponent to put more thought into their targeting.

I am pretty sure Independent Characters without 'scout' don't gain 'scout' by being in a unit that has it.

Scout is worded a unit containing at least one model with this special rule, so unless I missed an errata/FAQ on this the IC should be able to redeploy when the unit had scout.

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
I'm toying with the idea of starting Cawl with a vanguard unit for the scout move, then split him off on his own a few inches ahead. He's got an MC stat line, he should be able to hold his own and he can always drop back into the vanguards if he soaks too many wounds. Gives Cawl full toughness benefit and forces the opponent to put more thought into their targeting.

I am pretty sure Independent Characters without 'scout' don't gain 'scout' by being in a unit that has it.

Scout is worded a unit containing at least one model with this special rule, so unless I missed an errata/FAQ on this the IC should be able to redeploy when the unit had scout.

I am damn sure it doesn't work with Infiltrate. They had some specific FAQs on that. I will check again for scout.

Cawl cannot set up with Infiltrators at the start of the game.
However he can scout, by joining a unit with the Scout special rule.

hey all, am curious from player experience how reliable is a 5~6 dragoon unit running around supported by vanguard and infiltrator behind in a skitarii maniple??

I am planning to use it as a secondary to my Deathwatch Frag Cannons rhino CAD.

I require comments and inputs

 dan2026 wrote:
Cawl cannot set up with Infiltrators at the start of the game.
However he can scout, by joining a unit with the Scout special rule.

this is correct.

 fr3ddy wrote:
hey all, am curious from player experience how reliable is a 5~6 dragoon unit running around supported by vanguard and infiltrator behind in a skitarii maniple??

I am planning to use it as a secondary to my Deathwatch Frag Cannons rhino CAD.

I require comments and inputs

Personally i love Dragoons in all aspects of the games. They really shine in a war convo for me as they can have a 2+ cover save with shroudpsalm turn 1 (and turn two if needed). They hit like a freight train and if you manage to get the charge while calling the 3+ strength they can take down knights with ease. The key is positioning them for the charge. They have excellent speed. I like minimum of 3 in a unit but typically my war convo has 5. I haven't used them like you plan to but I am certain they will still do well. a 45 point dragoon is a very cheap model. They need to be dealt with so your other units are able to get into position as they take the brunt of the attacks first turns. If you play with mysterious objectives and get a cover save bonus objective that is also a nice bonus for them.

 fr3ddy wrote:
hey all, am curious from player experience how reliable is a 5~6 dragoon unit running around supported by vanguard and infiltrator behind in a skitarii maniple??

I am planning to use it as a secondary to my Deathwatch Frag Cannons rhino CAD.

I require comments and inputs

You can't go wrong with Dragoons, but I'd run them as two units of 3 just so I could cover more terrain and not be blocked in my manoeuvers by the sheer amount of scenery that could be on the terrain. Infiltrators are nice because they can keep up with them as of their movement range, and the debuff aura can help you even further, just make sure to hide them well while still being near your target, because boy do they die easily.

Guys, in the middle of my depression about Skitarii being too flimsy I remembered that Secutarii Peltasts existed. Just had another look at their datasheets and oh lord they look straight from the Mecha-Heavens ! Here's the datasheet for those who wonder:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Downloads//Secutarii_Titan_Guard_Download.pdf

Get the unit to 20 men to max out the Kyropatris field generator and have some more firepower, give them a lead by a Techpriest Dominus to tank the AP4 thanks to rerolls of 1's on armour saves, and a Scryerskull if you want to up their Ld to 10. Add the mandatory Omnispex. Remember they're relentless, so that Salvo 2/4 24" S3 Shred gun becomes an Assault 4 24" S3 Shred gun. With the different ammunition types you can do all kind of damage on your enemy, the 30" S4 AP3 Rending gun is really nasty too, making them better than Rangers as of shooting. The 20 small blasts of 18" S3 AP5 that ignores line of sight and cover looks fun to use too.

Okay they're still flimsy but at the same time they're terrifying, and still negates all shots made at them by 1S, at least allowing for the 6+ FNP. And they're not alone on the battlefield either, give the enemy a Cohort Cybernetica or some Grav Destroyers to shoot at and they should live long enough to do significant damage.

I'm really thinking about adding them to my army, as an allied Skitarii Maniple, though. I had no good experience of my Warlord being an Alpha Vanguard, he keeps dying all the time. And for some reason the Secutarii Alphas only have one Wound. With another 10 Vanguards and 5 Rangers to go grab objective (no one ever shoots at them because they look inoffensive, I keep using that to an advantage), 2 or 3 Dunecrawlers, and 1 or 2 Dragoons, that would be a nice allied detachment for my Cohort Cybernetica.

Yeah, the Secutarii are pretty awesome. The Haywire Stick guys are pretty cool as a counter charge element but the Peltasts are definitely the winner to me.

 fr3ddy wrote:
hey all, am curious from player experience how reliable is a 5~6 dragoon unit running around supported by vanguard and infiltrator behind in a skitarii maniple??

I am planning to use it as a secondary to my Deathwatch Frag Cannons rhino CAD.

I require comments and inputs

I run a very Dragoon heavy army (I have 12 of them and 6 Ironstriders) and I can tell you now you never want to run a single Squad of them at that size. I have had the most success running them in units of two or three to make my opponent have more targets to shoot at as too well help their survivability in close combat, all it takes is a single power fist surviving your charge to annihilate an entire Squad so you are better off running them in separate smaller squads.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Yeah, the Secutarii are pretty awesome. The Haywire Stick guys are pretty cool as a counter charge element but the Peltasts are definitely the winner to me.

They look good but too much short-ranged to me, and I only trust Dragoons and Sicarian for CC duty. We already have a lot of Haywire in both armies I think. The 5++ is nice to heave though !

 Aaranis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Yeah, the Secutarii are pretty awesome. The Haywire Stick guys are pretty cool as a counter charge element but the Peltasts are definitely the winner to me.

They look good but too much short-ranged to me, and I only trust Dragoons and Sicarian for CC duty. We already have a lot of Haywire in both armies I think. The 5++ is nice to heave though !

Hence why I say Counter Charge. Don't invest into them and keep them at minimum, and use them against outflanking units or Deep Strikers.

So I'm still trying to figure out how to run Ruststalkers. Unlike Infiltrators, they don't get infiltrate or stealth, which really helps them get into position and stay alive for a turn two charge. I can give my Ruststalkers scout with the standard Skitarii formation, but they still get shot to hell before they can get anywhere. I'm considering keeping them back near valuable units as a counter-charge unit, but it almost seems like a waste. How do y'all use your Ruststalkers?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Yeah, the Secutarii are pretty awesome. The Haywire Stick guys are pretty cool as a counter charge element but the Peltasts are definitely the winner to me.

They look good but too much short-ranged to me, and I only trust Dragoons and Sicarian for CC duty. We already have a lot of Haywire in both armies I think. The 5++ is nice to heave though !

Hence why I say Counter Charge. Don't invest into them and keep them at minimum, and use them against outflanking units or Deep Strikers.

I'd rather have so much dakka that no one can charge me at all

Vitali Advenil wrote:So I'm still trying to figure out how to run Ruststalkers. Unlike Infiltrators, they don't get infiltrate or stealth, which really helps them get into position and stay alive for a turn two charge. I can give my Ruststalkers scout with the standard Skitarii formation, but they still get shot to hell before they can get anywhere. I'm considering keeping them back near valuable units as a counter-charge unit, but it almost seems like a waste. How do y'all use your Ruststalkers?

Apart from running from cover to cover until you reach an enemy I don't see how to make them survive. Not that I venerate Peltasts or anything but they're able to forgo their shooting phase to give Shroud to a friendly unit in 18" of them, may help a bit. Otherwise, except by taking a big pack of them you'll have the same problems as with regular Skitarii troops, except you move 9" and not 6". I prefer Infiltrators too but admit Ruststalkers are worth a try with their S6 charges.

You don't always get that choice though. Especially when I see CSM coming out to play with their Raptor and Terminators formations.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't always get that choice though. Especially when I see CSM coming out to play with their Raptor and Terminators formations.

When you mean counter-charge, what scenario do you think of exactly ? Like, a unit deepstrikes right besides your guys, and so you preventively charge them first ? Or my nice shooty unit just got charged and is getting slaughtered, so I send in the Hoplites ?

 Aaranis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't always get that choice though. Especially when I see CSM coming out to play with their Raptor and Terminators formations.

When you mean counter-charge, what scenario do you think of exactly ? Like, a unit deepstrikes right besides your guys, and so you preventively charge them first ? Or my nice shooty unit just got charged and is getting slaughtered, so I send in the Hoplites ?

It would be a combination of both. You have different scenarios in which they would do something:
1. Unit arrives from Deep Strike or outflanking and does shooting. Unit will likely have some sorta melee capability, and you charge them before they can charge you. Either that or they have none, and you win the fight.
2. A unit arrives and goes to melee instead. You won't likely be wiped out the first round bar terrible rolling, so you go in to help clean up whatever is left.

I mostly suggest Hoplites because of their numbers and the fact other melee options in the codex want to move forward and obliterate the enemy to get their costs back.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It would be a combination of both. You have different scenarios in which they would do something:
1. Unit arrives from Deep Strike or outflanking and does shooting. Unit will likely have some sorta melee capability, and you charge them before they can charge you. Either that or they have none, and you win the fight.
2. A unit arrives and goes to melee instead. You won't likely be wiped out the first round bar terrible rolling, so you go in to help clean up whatever is left.

I mostly suggest Hoplites because of their numbers and the fact other melee options in the codex want to move forward and obliterate the enemy to get their costs back.

Yeah you wouldn't want to keep Sicarians at the back just to protect your shooters. Sure, a 10-man squad of Hoplites is cheaper for that role, I agree.

Hey guys I wrote a list around the Secutarii, if anyone of you could check it and would let me know what you think about it I'd be ever grateful, thanks !

EDIT: It's better with the link: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/718450.page

Why one big squad? Make it two squads of 10 so that you can get your firepower out on different targets.

Got to admit I hesitate between one or two squads. If I run two squads and lose a single guy (that will happen quite fast) I consequently lose the -1S on incoming shots, which I feel is quite a nice bonus to have. A bigger squad makes a bigger threat too. I'm thinking about placing my Dominus tank in there to make it unstoppable but I like my Vanguards too.