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So i have been using battlescribe to make lists and when upgrading boyz to shoota boyz it calculates it as follows: (i want unit of 9 shootsa plus nob, shoota, boss pole, power klaw)

9X shoota boyz = 9X 7 points each = 63
upgrade 1 to nob = 16 points (plus boss pole, power klaw) = 46 and then add shoota for free for some reason...?
total = 109

my question is, do you have to upgrade the entire squad squad first and then the nob? or do you have to upgrade only the boyz and then upgrade the nob as above?

This makes no difference to my list as it will sit at 1498/1500 but it is kind of bugging me,

battlescribe also allows you to upgrade a slugga boy up to a boy with big shoota for just +5 points, so it would be 11 points. should this be 11? or would it be upgraded to 7 points first and then swap the shoota for big shoota to = 12 points instead?

please help if you can!

Old arguement. There's no clear answer.

RAW you might or might not need to pay for upgrades you don't get - depends on how you read the rule.

 Tiny_Titan wrote:
So i have been using battlescribe to make lists and when upgrading boyz to shoota boyz it calculates it as follows: (i want unit of 9 shootsa plus nob, shoota, boss pole, power klaw)

9X shoota boyz = 9X 7 points each = 63
upgrade 1 to nob = 16 points (plus boss pole, power klaw) = 46 and then add shoota for free for some reason...?
total = 109

my question is, do you have to upgrade the entire squad squad first and then the nob? or do you have to upgrade only the boyz and then upgrade the nob as above?

This makes no difference to my list as it will sit at 1498/1500 but it is kind of bugging me,

please help if you can!

Have you looked in the Codex? Battlescribe isn't a substitute for the actual rules. If we assume that you have to select the options in order, you have to give the entire Mob Shootas BEFORE upgrading one Boy to a Nob. Hence, the Nob will already have a Shoota.

Also, your numbers seem off. It doesn't cost 16 points to upgrade a Boy to a Nob. It costs 10. The numbers ultimately work out, but you're getting to them the wrong way. I think this is a side effect of how Battlescribe works.

Should be more like...

Purchase 10 Boy unit for XXpts
Spend +10 pts (10 x 1pt) to swap 10x Sluggas for 10x Shootas
Spend +10 pts to upgrade one Boy to a Nob (Nob is now equipped with Choppa and Shoota)
Spend +xx to purchase Bosspole and Power Klaw for Nob

There's not a line that forces you to upgrade to shootas before other upgrades.

thank you all for your replies, i think rules as written i should be upgrading the whole squad first and then upgrading the nob. thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
There's not a line that forces you to upgrade to shootas before other upgrades.

indeed :/ but i think, since im only 2 points off, it doesnt matter to my army, but if it did, then i thought it would be interesting to bring this up.

 koooaei wrote:
There's not a line that forces you to upgrade to shootas before other upgrades.

True... just the baseline English language convention of reading from left to right and top to bottom. I believe GW's intent was most likely that we follow that same baseline English language convention.

In effect, we're not presented with the option to upgrade to a Boss Nob until after we're presented with the option to swap out Sluggas for Shootas. If you choose to ignore the baseline English language convention and read/action the options from bottom to top, then yes, you can save a single point on a Boss Nob equipped with something other than a Shoota. Of course, many, many options require you to take the first option before you can take the second. I've always considered this strong evidence that GW expects us to go top to bottom when picking options.

Kriswall, the battlescribe nob, costs 16 points for one simple reason. 6 points for a boy plus 10 points to upgrade equals 16 points.

OP to answer your question, the upgrade only cares how many models are in the unit. Not how many actually get upgraded.

 Happyjew wrote:

OP to answer your question, the upgrade only cares how many models are in the unit. Not how many actually get upgraded.

makes sense, thanks!

You don't have to go top to bottom. example: I want a nob with shoota and PK with my regular slugga boyz. Oh wait I think I want them as shoot a boys. Nowhere in any upgrade sections for other codices do you have to go top to bottom either. This is just another classic case of GW proving that they can't make a rule set without having errors or easily misunderstood rules

mhalko1 wrote:
You don't have to go top to bottom. example: I want a nob with shoota and PK with my regular slugga boyz. Oh wait I think I want them as shoot a boys. Nowhere in any upgrade sections for other codices do you have to go top to bottom either. This is just another classic case of GW proving that they can't make a rule set without having errors or easily misunderstood rules

If I want my Boss Nob to have a Boss Pole, I have to go top to bottom. It's not like you need to even look at other Codices (even though similar situations exist in most, if not all, other Codices). Many, many options only work if you take the options from top to bottom. Not all, but many.

Out of curiosity, what's your stance on a mixed unit of 20 Boyz with 10x Sluggas and 10x Shootas? Taking options out of order would easily allow this situation. My reading of GW's intent is that either all the models swap or none of the models swap. If you take options out of sequence and swap before adding models to the unit, you'll get a mixed unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Extra question... can I select a 5 man Scout Squad from Codex: Space Marines, give the entire Squad Camo Cloaks for +10 points (2/model) and THEN add 5 Scouts to the Unit? I'm assuming only the 5 Scouts will get the +1 cover?

Taking options out of order breaks most of the "entire unit" sort of upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what if I take a Unit of Dark Eldar Kabalite Warriors. It starts with 5x Warriors. Can I take the option to upgrade all the Kabalite Warriors to Kabalite Trueborn and swap the unit's Battlefield Role to Elites first at a cost of 15 points (3/model) and THEN add 15 Kabalite Warriors? Am I left with a mixed unit of 15 Kabalite Warriors and 5 Kabalite Trueborn? The unit is 20 models. Can I give 2 Warriors a Heavy Weapon AND 2 Trueborn a Heavy Weapon? Can I give 2 Warriors a Special Weapon AND 4 Trueborn a Special Weapon? Taking options out of order allows for a mixed unit of 5 Warriors/15 Trueborn with 6 Special Weapons and 4 Heavy Weapons. Can I upgrade 1 of the Warriors to a Sybarite AND 1 of the Trueborn to a Dracon? 2 Characters in one unit with 6 Special Weapons and 4 Heavy Weapons? Nice. Maybe I need to start playing Dark Eldar.

Again, I believe theses examples show the folly in taking options out of order. I can't imagine GW expected a mixed using to Warriors and Trueborn.

 Kriswall wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
There's not a line that forces you to upgrade to shootas before other upgrades.

True... just the baseline English language convention of reading from left to right and top to bottom. I believe GW's intent was most likely that we follow that same baseline English language convention.

In effect, we're not presented with the option to upgrade to a Boss Nob until after we're presented with the option to swap out Sluggas for Shootas. If you choose to ignore the baseline English language convention and read/action the options from bottom to top, then yes, you can save a single point on a Boss Nob equipped with something other than a Shoota. Of course, many, many options require you to take the first option before you can take the second. I've always considered this strong evidence that GW expects us to go top to bottom when picking options.

It's not right to assume what gw thinks and resort to language in this case.

For example, there was a FAQ for 4-th ed ork book where GW said it's perfectly fine for a nob to keep a slugga when the mob is swapping weapons for a shoota because you can use another sequence.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
There's not a line that forces you to upgrade to shootas before other upgrades.

True... just the baseline English language convention of reading from left to right and top to bottom. I believe GW's intent was most likely that we follow that same baseline English language convention.

In effect, we're not presented with the option to upgrade to a Boss Nob until after we're presented with the option to swap out Sluggas for Shootas. If you choose to ignore the baseline English language convention and read/action the options from bottom to top, then yes, you can save a single point on a Boss Nob equipped with something other than a Shoota. Of course, many, many options require you to take the first option before you can take the second. I've always considered this strong evidence that GW expects us to go top to bottom when picking options.

It's not right to assume what gw thinks and resort to language in this case.

For example, there was a FAQ for 4-th ed ork book where GW said it's perfectly fine for a nob to keep a slugga when the mob is swapping weapons for a shoota because you can use another sequence.

I agree that it's never appropriate to assume. That's why I qualified my statement about GW's intent saying it was something I believe to be true and not something I assume to be true.

It's also not appropriate to paraphrase an FAQ for a VERY outdated rule book that may or may not have been written by a different author to shed light on an ambiguous situation in a current rule book. We know that rules change from edition to edition. Presumably, so does intent.

 Kriswall wrote:

It's also not appropriate to paraphrase an FAQ for a VERY outdated rule book that may or may not have been written by a different author to shed light on an ambiguous situation in a current rule book

My intention was to actually shed light on how it's impossible to assume what 'GW thinks'.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

It's also not appropriate to paraphrase an FAQ for a VERY outdated rule book that may or may not have been written by a different author to shed light on an ambiguous situation in a current rule book

My intention was to actually shed light on how it's impossible to assume what 'GW thinks'.

Ah! Fair enough. In that case, I agree. Short of a conversation with the author, it is impossible to know the author's intent... what we normally refer to as "RaI".

HIWPI: My best guess is that they intend us to take the options in top to bottom order. Too many weird things occur when we take options in any other order. The Kabalite Warrior/Trueborn Unit with 2x Characters, 6x Special Weapons and 4x Heavy Weapons is a perfect example. I would be very surprised if the author's intended for us to be able to build such a unit.

Most people I see play it, whether they actually thought about it beforehand or not, tend to do it in the following order:

1) Add Units to the squad
2) Upgrades to any profiles in said squad (Veteran Sgt. upgrade, Nob upgrade, etc.)
3) Make purchases at your leisure from there.

I get there's no official rule that's how it's done. Anecdotally, though, I've never seen it played otherwise. I think that's just naturally how people end up putting together a squad, and it makes enough sense.

I'm with kriswall. Top to bottom.