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Hello all,

As the title suggests, I am currently debating whether to build up a 10-man squad of Deathwatch marines for my Crimson Fists army.

A bit of background
For those of you unfamiliar, the Deathwatch are an organisation who hand-pick the best alien-killing marines from each chapter and give them access to whatever equipment they need to get their job done efficiently (oh and black paint ).

The reason I want to use them is because well, who doesn't want utterly badass looking figures in their army? And they don't just look the part either. Now if we look at the fluff of Deathwatch, we can see that they aren't your average marines, not even your average veterans. These guys are like Veteran veterans. So, what statline do you think best represents them, and what points costs? After a quick look on 1d4chan, they suggest increasing their BS, WS, I and Ld by 1 from a normal Sternguard squad. This would give them the following stats:

WS-5 BS-5 S-4 T-4 W-1 I-5 A-2 Ld-10 Sv-3+

They also suggest giving them Preffered Enemy for any Xenos race I choose, and increasing their cost. Considering that Sternguards are 120 points, I think at least 180pts, considering they would have better WS, BS, I and Ld than most umits on the 'dex, and a statline somewhere between a Chapter Master and an Honour Guard squad...

Personally, I think that they should be more survivable somehow instead of increased WS and I, maybe increase their T or give them another wound? Seems odd that a marine so specialised and who has likely been alive for many years would die so easily...

Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts,
Doge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After further research, I found some information about the wargear Deathwatch Kill-Teams use: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kill-team
Considering that they have access to heavy weapons, I think they should be Slow and Purposeful. Just my 2 cents.

There were DW kill teams back in 3rd or maybe 4th ed... and they are the precursors to the sternguard. Infact, that's where the special ammo and so on came from!

The sternguard are literally EXACTLY the same as the old DW team save for the fact they had a captain (WS5, BS5, W2, I5, A4, LD10) instead of a sarge and he had power armour access to the armoury. He could also be made into a librarian if you wanted.

TLDR, add a captain to a sternguard unit and you are good!

No to the increased T or the extra wounds. Yes, they're experienced but no tougher than a Sternguard Veteran.

I honestly doubt it's possible to capture the essence of the Deathwatch in a single unit; they need something akin to a mini-'Dex or Supplement.

If I was able to do Deathwatch as a unit, I'd settle with them being a unit of:

Composition: 4 Deathwatch Marines and 1 Deathwatch Sergeant
Type: Infantry (Deathwatch Sergeant is Infantry (Character))
Points: 200
Deathwatch Marines
WS5
BS5
S4
T4
W1
I5
A2
Ld10
Preferred Enemy (All Xenos - Units from Faction Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Orks, Tau Empire, Tyranids, Necrons, and Jokaero Gunsmiths from Codex: Inquisition)
Deathwatch Ammo

Deathwatch Sergeant
WS5
BS5
S4
T4
W1
I5
A3
Ld10
Preferred Enemy (All Xenos - Units from Faction Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Orks, Tau Empire, Tyranids, Necrons, and Jokaero Gunsmiths from Codex: Inquisition)
Deathwatch Ammo

Deathwatch Ammo: When firing with any bolters, combi-weapons firing as bolters, bolt pistols, storm bolters and heavy bolters, the unit owner may declare which type of ammo the whole squad is using. All Stats remain the same when firing with different weapons, unless changed by the ammo's profile, ie. A Heavy Bolter firing Metal Storm rounds would be 30" S4 AP6 Heavy 3 Blast, a bolter is 18" S3 AP6 Rapid Fire Blast and a bolt pistol is 6" S3 AP6 Pistol Blast.

Kraken Rounds (+6" range, AP 4)
Metal Storm Rounds (-6" Range, -1 Strength and AP, gains Blast)
Antiphasic Rounds (Ignores Necron Reanimation Protocols)
Dragonfire Rounds (Gains Ignores Cover)
Hellfire Rounds (S1 AP5, Gains Poisoned 2+)
Vengeance Rounds (-6" range, AP3 and Gets Hot!)
Witch Hunter Rounds (Wounds models with the Psyker/Psychic Pilot/Brotherhood of Psykers rule on a 2+)

Wargear: Bolter, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades, power armour
May take up to 5 extra Deathwatch Marines at 40 points a model

Any model may replace their bolter/bolt pistol with a combi-weapon for 10 points.
Up to two models without jump packs may replace their bolter with a:
-Heavy Bolter for 10 points
-Missile Launcher for 15 points (25 with flakk missiles)
-Multimelta for 10 points
-Heavy Flamer for 10 points
-Plasma Cannon for 15 points
-Lascannon for 20 points
-Flamer for 5 points
-Meltagun for 10 points
-Grav-gun for 15 points
-Plasma gun for 15 points

The entire squad may take jump packs for 10 points per model
Any model with a jump pack may replace their bolter/bolt pistol with:
-Chainsword for free
-Combat shield for 5 points
- Power weapon for 15 points
-Hand flamer for 15 points
-Infernus pistol for 15 points
-Plasma pistol for 15 points
-Storm shield for 20 points
-Power fist for 25 points
-Relic blade for 25 points
-Thunder hammer for 30 points

The Deathwatch Sergeant may replace his bolter/bolt pistol with:
-Chainsword for free
-Combat shield for 5 points
- Power weapon for 15 points
-Hand flamer for 15 points
-Infernus pistol for 15 points
-Plasma pistol for 15 points
-Storm shield for 20 points
-Power fist for 25 points
-Relic blade for 25 points
-Thunder hammer for 30 points

The Deathwatch Sergeant may also take meltabombs for 5 points.

One Deathwatch Marine may be upgraded to an Deathwatch Apothecary, with an upgraded Narthecium that gives the squad a 4+ Feel No Pain, for 50 points.

The squad may take a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod, Land Raider or Stormraven Gunship as a Dedicated Transport.




Wow, that was longer than expected! I would add more, like Captains, Relics, vehicle upgrades and Dreadnoughts, making it a full mini-dex, but this is an idea of what I'd like in the Deathwatch!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I honestly doubt it's possible to capture the essence of the Deathwatch in a single unit; they need something akin to a mini-'Dex or Supplement.

Yeah, exactly. This is the best I could do. If I did a mini-dex, it would be based off of this unit, but it would need far more.

That was long but very informative, thanks!

As a Crimson Fists player, I'm looking to add a squad of deathwatch to my army, what with the strong ties they have to each other. I've actually already created a Character unit for Watch Captain Esteban De Dominova, a Crimson Fists Apothecary who is currently serving his 5th vigil with the Deathwatch, as a Watch Captain no less!

Despite this, I hadn't actually thought up rules for the squad yet, but now I have some rules I can use! Again, thanks for the immense amount of feedback man, much appreciated

I couldn't help but notice that Deathwatch is listed in your Signature at 1000pts... Do you use these rules that you have stated for them? Also do you have any pictures of them anywhere?

Really skeptical about WS/BS5 in all the rules folks are suggesting. Anyone want to share their reasoning?

Doge_Read wrote:
That was long but very informative, thanks!

As a Crimson Fists player, I'm looking to add a squad of deathwatch to my army, what with the strong ties they have to each other. I've actually already created a Character unit for Watch Captain Esteban De Dominova, a Crimson Fists Apothecary who is currently serving his 5th vigil with the Deathwatch, as a Watch Captain no less!

Despite this, I hadn't actually thought up rules for the squad yet, but now I have some rules I can use! Again, thanks for the immense amount of feedback man, much appreciated

I couldn't help but notice that Deathwatch is listed in your Signature at 1000pts... Do you use these rules that you have stated for them? Also do you have any pictures of them anywhere?

Thanks!
I could've really made it better, I'll consider making a full mini-dex soon, that was just a rough idea.
The Deathwatch in my sig are just Sternguard Vets and some other units (Venerable Dreadnought, Stormraven, buffed up Captain, Scouts in a LSS and a Command Squad I finally painted up yesterday). I haven't used my method of costing them yet, but I might consider it soon.
Again, no pictures, but I may post some soon!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Thanks!
I could've really made it better, I'll consider making a full mini-dex soon, that was just a rough idea.
The Deathwatch in my sig are just Sternguard Vets and some other units (Venerable Dreadnought, Stormraven, buffed up Captain, Scouts in a LSS and a Command Squad I finally painted up yesterday). I haven't used my method of costing them yet, but I might consider it soon.
Again, no pictures, but I may post some soon!

Dude, you should definitely make a mini-dex, god knows I'd use it Have you used them in any battles yet or not? I'm taking a shot in the dark by saying you haven't as they're only 1000pts but I could be wrong. And yeah post some pics up somewhere, I'd love to see them.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Really skeptical about WS/BS5 in all the rules folks are suggesting. Anyone want to share their reasoning?

Agreed. If Sternguards don't get WS5/BS5, neither should Deathwatch.

OTOH, Sternguards arguably should. But they don't.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Really skeptical about WS/BS5 in all the rules folks are suggesting. Anyone want to share their reasoning?

Agreed. If Sternguards don't get WS5/BS5, neither should Deathwatch.

OTOH, Sternguards arguably should. But they don't.

I have to agree with you there, Sternguards should get BS5, Vanguards should get WS5. Deathwatch, being a mix of the two and their advanced skills, should be a mix of the two. I'd like Deathwatch to get WS5/BS5 but if that's a huge issue, it doesn't need to be done.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Really skeptical about WS/BS5 in all the rules folks are suggesting. Anyone want to share their reasoning?

Agreed. If Sternguards don't get WS5/BS5, neither should Deathwatch.

OTOH, Sternguards arguably should. But they don't.

Considering that Deathwatch are elite marines who are so skilled that they are hired by the Inquisition, why shouldn't they have higher Weapon/Ballistic skill?

Doge_Read wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Really skeptical about WS/BS5 in all the rules folks are suggesting. Anyone want to share their reasoning?

Agreed. If Sternguards don't get WS5/BS5, neither should Deathwatch.

OTOH, Sternguards arguably should. But they don't.

Considering that Deathwatch are elite marines who are so skilled that they are hired by the Inquisition, why shouldn't they have higher Weapon/Ballistic skill?

Because Veterans don't, and Deathwatch are not better than Veterans.

In fact, they are not hired by the Inquisition - they are sent by their parent chapter.

Ideally both should be bumped to BS/WS5, but as that's impossible it's better to keep both on the same level.

Except Deathwatch aren't always elite Marines. Deathwatch doesn't pull from 1st Company or Veteran Sergeants only. They pull Codicers, Tactical Squad members, humdrum members offered up by the Chapter to fill a quota. Deathwatch can MAKE them Veterans, but they aren't 'hired' to be elites. They're hired to be Space Marines in black armor shooting xenos in the face and not answering to some arrogant Chapter Master.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I have to agree with you there, Sternguards should get BS5, Vanguards should get WS5. Deathwatch, being a mix of the two and their advanced skills, should be a mix of the two. I'd like Deathwatch to get WS5/BS5 but if that's a huge issue, it doesn't need to be done.

Nah. If devastator veterans were a thing, then they should have BS5. But Sternguards are Tacticals +1, that is, they are adaptable. They should have both. As should Deathwatch. And Terminators of all colours.

That's a slippery slope - the most elite marines (Grey Knights) only have a handful of models at WS/BS5 for balance

Sternguard/vanguard/DW should be left at 4

Cyrus in DoWII spent some time in the Deathwatch and came back to the Blood Ravens to be a Scout Sergeant. Does that mean Scout Sergeants should be WS/BS5 because they might be ex-Deathwatch?

Stick with WS/BS4.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
might be ex-Deathwatch?

Might. Most Scout Sergeants aren't ex-Deathwatch, so the base Scout Sergeant stat would be 4. If Cyrus was a model in the game, with special rules, I would like him to be WS5/BS5. But yes, Deathwatch Marines aren't recruited from Sternguard/Vanguard squads, they are recruited from all squads in a Chapter. However, I feel that a stat buff would be a good thing to have for them, if only that stat buff also applied to Sternguard/Vanguard veterans as well. (Unfortunately, this is not the case.)

Query: Would you say that Sternguard/Vanguard veterans should get BS5/WS5 for their respective units?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Query: Would you say that Sternguard/Vanguard veterans should get BS5/WS5 for their respective units?

Yes! They are more experienced than normal marines, hence them being veterans and not dead/still a tactical marine. Not everyone becomes a veteran, you need to display skill in your chosen field, that's why there are Sternguard and Vanguard Vets as opposed to just 'Veterans'. So yeah, they should get a boost to their respective stats imo.