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 lord_blackfang wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/The-Island-of-Blood-UK

This product will be removed from sale on June 26th. The Age of Sigmar is coming!

I see. From a few random clicks I guess only the starter and all the rules materials so far?

All the rulebooks and a few odds and sods it seems.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Because Skaven & Empire haven't been steampunk'ish since before WMH's existed...

Or steampunk rats didn't exist before WHFB... Nobody's original here, pretending GW invented something is just silly. GW stole the idea from D&D so where are we now?

D&D had steampunk ratmen? Don't remember those.

I remember the Nezumi and were-rats, but I don't remember early D&D having steampunk until Spell Jammer (which wasn't really STEAMpunk) or Eberron (which doesn't really have rat-men).

Who am I forgetting?

Didn't say they didn't. I said that Skaven and Empire were steam punk before WMH existed. Since he pointed out as one of his "points" that GW was cashing in on the steam punk vibe of Warmachine like GW suddenly jumped on that bandwagon because of Warmachine.

Everything in a fantasy setting is going to have been done before even if it's in literature. That goes without saying.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Didn't say they didn't. I said that Skaven and Empire were steam punk before WMH existed. Since he pointed out as one of his "points" that GW was cashing in on the steam punk vibe of Warmachine like GW suddenly jumped on that bandwagon because of Warmachine.

Fair enough, and all that only helps my rebuttal that "Well I don't like steampunk" isn't the best argument in favor of Warhams over Warmahordes.

I'm actually not being a WM/H fanboy (because I'm not one), just going back to my point that if people want to play a fantasy-ish skirmish game with X,Y and Z features, you can literally start doing it right now. With some pretty nice plastic starter kits, in fact

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Didn't say they didn't. I said that Skaven and Empire were steam punk before WMH existed. Since he pointed out as one of his "points" that GW was cashing in on the steam punk vibe of Warmachine like GW suddenly jumped on that bandwagon because of Warmachine.

Fair enough, and all that only helps my rebuttal that "Well I don't like steampunk" isn't the best argument in favor of Warhams over Warmahordes.

I'm actually not being a WM/H fanboy (because I'm not one), just going back to my point that if people want to play a fantasy-ish skirmish game with X,Y and Z features, you can literally start doing it right now. With some pretty nice plastic starter kits, in fact

- Salvage

Personally I'm hoping for a more War of the Ring style game play out of the new fantasy or at least a slip back to 6th/7th style as far as numbers go.

That said I dislike the WMH aesthetic and the actual game play for a skirmish game. WMH isn't for me and simply being a skirmish game with tight rules doesn't mean that it's what people are looking for. Personally I've found Wrath of Kings to be a solid fantasy-esque skirmish to be excellent so that is my skirmish game of choice. Which is why I'm hoping for something between a skirmish and the current version of fantasy out of WFB.

 adamsouza wrote:
Nothing is stopping GW from adding additional factions back to Fantasy. The six factions thing may just be six factions at the release of the new edition.

I'm of mixed feelings about the rumored "six factions". On the one hand, IMO GW has proven themselves as incapbably of adequatly supporting the number of armies that currently exist in WHFB. A big reboot of the game might be the perfect time to reign in the sheer number of armies in the game, currently. Of course, on the other hand I don't want my armies to be the ones discontinued/merged.

 streamdragon wrote:
D&D had steampunk ratmen? Don't remember those.

I remember the Nezumi and were-rats, but I don't remember early D&D having steampunk until Spell Jammer (which wasn't really STEAMpunk) or Eberron (which doesn't really have rat-men).

Who am I forgetting?

Spell Jammer not steampunk? Gallions in space. Another steampunk reference for D&D, though later than Skaven was Planescape.

Ever read "Swords of Lankhmar?", 1968. Not steampunk per se but intelligent rats, under-city...etc.

Geez, I'm old.

So, steam punk and wererats have existed in other places; I'm not sure if anyone else has put them together but it's not like it's difficult to add A to B in any combination. Actually, steampunk Ogres sounds really cool but then I guess they kind of have that ....

As for other, early influences to the creation of Skaven, look into Raxivort, the patron god of xvarts and wererats...his ethos will probably strike a chord with any Skaven fans and was written by Gary Gygax, I want to say I read about it in a Dragon Magazine...waaaaaaay back. (man, I AM old.)

 Paradigm wrote:

 monders wrote:
On a similar sort of vibe, I really think that a single box of say, Orc Boyz, should be a valid unit and reflected as such in-game. It always seems like you need at least TWO boxes of everything!

Maybe improve horde faction stats slightly so that you don't need as many.

Reduce the Magic phase and instead give units the options for magical buffs/attacks.

I dunno, I'd like to see a fast and more cost effective version take over but I'll probably hold off until I see KoW 2 anyways.

Agreed, this is the thing that stopped me building my HE army a few years ago. There was a new release wave (White Lions, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard) that was chock full of amazing minis, all of which would have to have been bought in multiples to be of any use. I'd have happily paid for one box of any, but needing at least two killed any interest I had.

If this new ruleset is of a scope where I can take, say a couple dozen Spearmen, a dozen Archers, a box of White Lions and some Ellyrion Reavers as a viable full force, I'll be all over that!

Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.

Oryza Sativa wrote:
Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.

You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?

 mdauben wrote:

Oryza Sativa wrote:
Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.

You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?

Not to be contrary or anything, but doesn't playing fewer points solve all of this?

 mdauben wrote:

Oryza Sativa wrote:
Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.

You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?

Something else I think a lot of players did in earlier editions (this is just anecdotal) was to buy and play multiple armies.
You can do that in Mordheim and Necromunda very easily because of the low model count.
A little harder in a scaled up skirmish (as this may/may not become) but definitely not as hard as the huge # of models needed to play in recent editions of WFB.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 mdauben wrote:

Oryza Sativa wrote:
Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.

You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?

Not to be contrary or anything, but doesn't playing fewer points solve all of this?

Yes, if you manage it (e.g. no Lords, no high powered spells etc)

If you let no holds barred competitive play occur, than smaller points doesn't work that well in 8th edition. Monsters and the magic phase will just end up dominating the game.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 mdauben wrote:

Oryza Sativa wrote:
Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.

You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?

Not to be contrary or anything, but doesn't playing fewer points solve all of this?

It does to some extent, but playing 60 minis a side with a ruleset scaled for 150-odd isn't going to be that satisfying or even efficient. It would 'feel' like a smaller game rather than a naturally sized one, and some things would rule the roost even more. Just the basic Fireball spell, does up to 3d6 hits regardless of game size; if you're playing with units of 10 minis, a mage could delete a regiment a turn without breaking a sweat. Inversely, something like a Cannon might be a lot less powerful as the monsters/uber-heroes they excell at killing would be less prevalent.

Yes, all this could be house ruled to work better, buy with the amount of effort it would take you might as well play, buy, learn of write a different ruleset with the same core but different in almost every way.

YouKnowsIt wrote:
I can totally understand the excitement of some others in the thread - just because we don't know many details doesn't mean we can't look forward to Age of Sigmar's release. Played Fantasy since '92 and while I love the setting, for me it was stale - the same old fluff again and again. The End Times finally moved the plot forward - it was the culmination of over 20 years of hints and suspense, finally being delivered on in a big way (unlike Storm of Chaos). Why is it so strange to think that some people are equally excited to see where the story goes next? Personally I've been a huge fan of all the End Times model releases, and I see no reason why the starter set model's would be any worse detail wise, so frankly I'd even pre-order it without any information going in because it's going to deliver on what I want most - story and models. If I don't like the rules they'll just make awesome conversion parts for 8th edition armies.

You do get that a setting, by its very nature, is static, right? It's not supposed to advance, it's supposed to exist. It provides a backdrop and source of inspiration for you to tell your own stories, and for GW to explore in more detail over time. So why is it strange to see people excited to see where the story goes next?

Because it's baffling to me that someone can be a fan of something for 20+ years yet be excited to see the thing they were a fan of torn down and rebooted into something entirely different. And it's senseless as well; either they will change Warhammer so much that it's unrecognisable, in which case you'd have been as well simply playing another game in another system ages ago when Warhammer first became "stale" for you, or the changes will be so minor as to be almost unnoticeable, a superficial excuse to run a big "NEW NEW NEW, BUY BUY BUY!" campaign in White Dwarf, in which case how can it possibly have changed enough to overcome your previous view that it was stale and uninteresting?

I was a fan of the Warhammer World, that's what drew me in, and when I got bored of it I went away and did something else. Either my interest would eventually drift back to it, which it often did, or it would not. At no point did it occur to me to hope that, since I personally was bored of it, the company would utterly eradicate the setting and characters that lots of other people were still enthused by.

 Yodhrin wrote:

YouKnowsIt wrote:
I can totally understand the excitement of some others in the thread - just because we don't know many details doesn't mean we can't look forward to Age of Sigmar's release. Played Fantasy since '92 and while I love the setting, for me it was stale - the same old fluff again and again. The End Times finally moved the plot forward - it was the culmination of over 20 years of hints and suspense, finally being delivered on in a big way (unlike Storm of Chaos). Why is it so strange to think that some people are equally excited to see where the story goes next? Personally I've been a huge fan of all the End Times model releases, and I see no reason why the starter set model's would be any worse detail wise, so frankly I'd even pre-order it without any information going in because it's going to deliver on what I want most - story and models. If I don't like the rules they'll just make awesome conversion parts for 8th edition armies.

You do get that a setting, by its very nature, is static, right? It's not supposed to advance, it's supposed to exist. It provides a backdrop and source of inspiration for you to tell your own stories, and for GW to explore in more detail over time. So why is it strange to see people excited to see where the story goes next?

Because it's baffling to me that someone can be a fan of something for 20+ years yet be excited to see the thing they were a fan of torn down and rebooted into something entirely different. And it's senseless as well; either they will change Warhammer so much that it's unrecognisable, in which case you'd have been as well simply playing another game in another system ages ago when Warhammer first became "stale" for you, or the changes will be so minor as to be almost unnoticeable, a superficial excuse to run a big "NEW NEW NEW, BUY BUY BUY!" campaign in White Dwarf, in which case how can it possibly have changed enough to overcome your previous view that it was stale and uninteresting?

I was a fan of the Warhammer World, that's what drew me in, and when I got bored of it I went away and did something else. Either my interest would eventually drift back to it, which it often did, or it would not. At no point did it occur to me to hope that, since I personally was bored of it, the company would utterly eradicate the setting and characters that lots of other people were still enthused by.

Can't you completely ignore End Times? It seems conveniently compartmentalized like a stand alone campaign. The perpetual nature of the Warhammer world (barring End Times) has decades worth of fluff and ideas to inspire as you say. That won't change, for me at least.

Then there's Age of Sigmar, given that I know nothing about it I'm looking forward to learning more and I'm enthusiastic for what we might get as I really love GW miniatures and games and for the most part they do a good job of releasing fun models that I enjoy slapping paint on.

I've got my fingers crossed for a skirmish game with some lovely detailed GW plastics to go with as I'll have 8th (and previous editions... and KoW) to go alongside a skirmish game that could (COULD! Please let it be so!) be a Mordheim for the 21st century.

Alternatively it might turn out to be rancid gak but until then, I live in hope and I'm excited for Age of Sigmar. (Especially as I rather enjoyed End Times!)

 Yodhrin wrote:
You do get that a setting, by its very nature, is static, right? It's not supposed to advance, it's supposed to exist.

That's an arbitrary rule if I ever saw one. Star Wars is not a setting? Star Trek? Middle-Earth?

Come on.

 mdauben wrote:
You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?

I feel those feels. On the flipside, having now painted three full sized WHFB 7-8E armies, I can say that the pride I feel at fielding scores of painted minis as a cohesive force is unparalleled by any skirmish game I have played. But then well more than 50% of Warhammer for me is hobby, as I expect it is for many of us, simply due to the nature of unassembled, unpainted minis.

One of the reasons I'm amongst those legions bitter about 9E's rumor scale-stomp? Dismissing the years I spent building and painting those armies and (hypothetically) insisting I find the will to do it all over again, at a fraction of the scale. Here's hoping that's not the case.

- Salvage

So this is from GW as of a minute ago. I will continue to hammer my sales rep about 4 times a week, and he's promised to call me whenever new info pops up.

-Ages of Sigmar is a new system, not necessarily WFB 8.5 or 9.0

-Story advances after the events in Endtimes.

-All current models will be usable. But it's a new system, so how good/bad something was in 8th isn't an indication of how it will perform in AoS.

-Age of Sigmar is not a boardgame, is not an intro game to something larger. It's the main event.

The first line, I get that they're going to say that, and it does seem different enough, but if "all current models will be usable" it's obviously the next fantasy edition, right?

Did he confirm round bases or make any comment about that?

And thanks for the info mikhaila . By the way, if you're looking to carry a new line that is hotter than hot, Guildball is insanely in demand at the moment (can't find stock anywhere).

Interesting. Fingers still crossed for a nice blend of LotR Battle Game (not skirmish) and WFB 7th & 8th Edition.

agreed, this is the next edition of fantasy, no matter how it's presented.
-It uses the models and storyline from WFB
-They don't have another version of WFB coming out.

So whether GW considers this as a new system or not, it will be looked at by 99.99% of people playing the game as the next edition of WFB.

.....unlesss it sucks horribly, and we see "Coming Soon! 9th Edition", in a New Coke style fiasco. Hopefully that doesn't happen and its a good game.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

 mdauben wrote:
You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?

I feel those feels. On the flipside, having now painted three full sized WHFB 7-8E armies, I can say that the pride I feel at fielding scores of painted minis as a cohesive force is unparalleled by any skirmish game I have played. But then well more than 50% of Warhammer for me is hobby, as I expect it is for many of us, simply due to the nature of unassembled, unpainted minis.

One of the reasons I'm amongst those legions bitter about 9E's rumor scale-stomp? Dismissing the years I spent building and painting those armies and (hypothetically) insisting I find the will to do it all over again, at a fraction of the scale. Here's hoping that's not the case.

- Salvage

Well, if the rumors are true about a smaller scale game being around first and then the larger-scale rules coming out a few months later, that would help to make everyone happy as well as possibly draw more people into the game. I don't necessarily trust GW to communicate well enough to keep those hardcore gamers with tons of models that would be put off by the scaling down of the game interested, but I guess we will have to wait and see. But, if they get more people into the game with a smaller starting-off point, it is good for everyone.

For my personal situation, I've been playing Warhammer for about 4 years now and have two armies worth about 3000 points each built, but only about 1000 points are painted to a basic level. I would love a smaller scale version of the game that I can play with regularly that works well so I can fine tune those I have painted and keep moving forward with them and building up to a larger army. Right now, I find myself daunted with what needs to be done yet to play a regular game, especially with no painting experience.

mikhaila wrote:-All current models will be usable.

RiTides wrote:Did he confirm round bases or make any comment about that?

My current models are currently on the square bases they currently come with ...*

Thanks for sharing Mikhaila.

- Salvage

*except for the ones that are technically 40k models

 mikhaila wrote:

-Ages of Sigmar is a new system, not necessarily WFB 8.5 or 9.0

-Story advances after the events in Endtimes.

-All current models will be usable. But it's a new system, so how good/bad something was in 8th isn't an indication of how it will perform in AoS.

-Age of Sigmar is not a boardgame, is not an intro game to something larger. It's the main event.

Music to my ears! Now I just need confirmation that everything is going to circle bases and you can pass me the glue a hobby knife and some 25mms :-D

Can't wait to get the new starter!

 mikhaila wrote:
So this is from GW as of a minute ago. I will continue to hammer my sales rep about 4 times a week, and he's promised to call me whenever new info pops up.

-Ages of Sigmar is a new system, not necessarily WFB 8.5 or 9.0

-Story advances after the events in Endtimes.

-All current models will be usable. But it's a new system, so how good/bad something was in 8th isn't an indication of how it will perform in AoS.

-Age of Sigmar is not a boardgame, is not an intro game to something larger. It's the main event.

Thanks for sharing, Mikhaila.

I for one cant wait for this revitilisation of WFB.
The large scale always turned me away.

The option for smaller scale fights is perfect.
Roll on the Age of Sigmar!

Kanluwen wrote:There is a difference between "viable" and "valid".
That box of Orc Boyz is a valid unit--but not viable.

Agreed with the rest of Paradigm's point. As it stands, I was looking at just ignoring certain units for my Elf armies because you just need so damn many of them--same goes for Cavalry that isn't Monstrous.

Good catch Kan! Whilst I said valid, I meant viable. Makes all the difference!

Boss Salvage wrote:
Am I allowed to point out that Warmachine / Hordes has all of those things, plus more stuff SkirmishHammer people keep one-upping? As well as tighter rules than I believe GW capable of creating?

Yes, yes, you don' t like the models and/or aesthetic. Rebuttal: 1) Use models you do like? 2) Having seen the art for AoS, the last redux of the Empire and the popularity of Skaven, can you deny that The Dub isn't cashing in on the same steampunk wagon?

Anyway, I'll return to simmering in the background.

- Salvage

I love the look of some of the WM/H stuff. That Cryx vibe rocks my world! I've heard it's turbo competitive though, and I'm a bit casual so I'd get rofl stomped regularly and I wouldn't enjoy it. Plus no one has a painted army at my FLGS.

Despite that I think I'd enjoy it. I might even have a go one day

 monders wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There is a difference between "viable" and "valid".
That box of Orc Boyz is a valid unit--but not viable.

Agreed with the rest of Paradigm's point. As it stands, I was looking at just ignoring certain units for my Elf armies because you just need so damn many of them--same goes for Cavalry that isn't Monstrous.

Good catch Kan! Whilst I said valid, I meant viable. Makes all the difference!

Sorry if it seemed nitpicky, it's just a discussion I have had way too many times in person with people trying to compare systems.

mikhaila wrote:So this is from GW as of a minute ago. I will continue to hammer my sales rep about 4 times a week, and he's promised to call me whenever new info pops up.

-Ages of Sigmar is a new system, not necessarily WFB 8.5 or 9.0

-Story advances after the events in Endtimes.

-All current models will be usable. But it's a new system, so how good/bad something was in 8th isn't an indication of how it will perform in AoS.

-Age of Sigmar is not a boardgame, is not an intro game to something larger. It's the main event.

Thank you, Mike!

 RiTides wrote:
The first line, I get that they're going to say that, and it does seem different enough, but if "all current models will be usable" it's obviously the next fantasy edition, right?

Did he confirm round bases or make any comment about that?

And thanks for the info mikhaila . By the way, if you're looking to carry a new line that is hotter than hot, Guildball is insanely in demand at the moment (can't find stock anywhere).

Is Guildball popular? My FLGS has a mountain rotting on shelves and i've not yet seen a unit move. Isn't that CMoN's "not Dreadball"? Why would it suddenly be blazing hot?