Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Games can work fine without points.

Which games do not use a points system in which the abilities of individual models can vary as much as that between an End Times legendary hero and your bog standard goblin boss?

You're showing an awful lack of imagination if you can't work out at least one way to manage it.

Ah, so you have no response and instead resort to attacking my apparent lack of imagination.

You're a lazy reader, too. Wrath of Kings has been mentioned before you even asked.

X Hero slots.

Y Special slots.

Z Troop slots.

Each selection is balanced against all others in the same category. This might mean that a Troop of Skaven or Goblins is 10 models and a Troop of WoC is 3 models.

Also, everyone needs to stop freakin' assuming that stats will stay the same. For all you know, a Goblin Boss can solo 8 Bloodthirsters.

Put me in the "going by pure numbers seems like insanity" camp, but then again I'm a skaven player so I may be a bit biased.

Historicals can function without points as you can attempt to approximate the force disposition of actual historical events, and additionally structure the scenario around that (as very rarely do two even forces meet in real life), but unless GW plans on releasing the complete history of this new world for use to recreate then it's not going to work here.

On the other hand if the worst comes to the worst, it shouldn't be too hard to rough out a formula once we're given the stats for everything. Base it around the 'basic' human statline at X points, +/-Y per increase/decrease relative to that, +/-Z for special rules.

Right but does that game have as big a power difference between models as GW does?

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'm sure there will be categories like Major Hero, Minor hero (where a major hero is equal to 2 minor heroes, or similar).

Then unit size balances troops. For a slot you might get 10 goblins, 5 Halberdier, or 3 Chaos Warriors, each unit being roughly equal in effectiveness on the tabletop.

If's far from impossible to do.

I want my deathstar 10x10 grave guard block dammit

But does make upgrading troops, adding equipment, banners, magic etc much more difficult.

Are 4 chaos warriors all the same points, no matter what weapons or marks? Or are their no weapons or marks?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
No points costs?

By all means agree to one HQ and two troops. Then your opponent pulls out Nagash to use against your Goblin Warboss

This.

Seems like a massive dealbreaker potentially here.

 judgedoug wrote:
Since GW identifies themselves as a collectors figurine company first and foremost, it appears they have done just that with Warhammer.

Expensive collectible figures with minimal rules as an afterthought.

That's my take on it, as well. They've swallowed their own hype about making collectible toys rather than wargames, and the rules are just included for those (they can only assume small number of people) who actually want to play games with them.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
No points costs?

By all means agree to one HQ and two troops. Then your opponent pulls out Nagash to use against your Goblin Warboss

I suspect that's the entire point. From 4 pages of rules, I'm expecting something like a slightly more complex rendition of Top Trumps.


I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised, but I strongly suspect that this isn't going to be a game that appeals to gamers.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Also, everyone needs to stop freakin' assuming that stats will stay the same. For all you know, a Goblin Boss can solo 8 Bloodthirsters.

So we can worry about invisible point counts and our armies losing every shred of flavor that they had is what I'm hearing?

 namiel wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
No points lol.

Both players having the same number of slots avilable ad same number of units is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.

Works well in Wrath of Kings. You just have slots. At most you have "Ranks of 1 or 2" with rank 2's just taking up two of the previously mentioned slots. That said it'll be interesting to see what they do.

And you can't beat the price for a GW game and most of us already have a plethora of models.

Maybe it will work. Maybe it's just a simplistic kiddie game.

4 page rules and rules with units can be potentialy good as well but it all depends on the tactical depth of the game, and we already had rumors that it's less tactical than LotR. Then I dont know what happens with my dear grimdark.

I'm cautiously pessimistic.

Less tactical then LOTR? Lotr is/was the MOST tactical game of all 3 big games. It is SUPER easy to learn but difficult to master. If this ruleset is similar to LOTR then we are all in luck since that is a very tight and simple ruleset that allows for tons of tactics.

Sure but it's supposedly less tactical. How much less? Doesnt take much to ruin tactical play.

 mikhaila wrote:
But does make upgrading troops, adding equipment, banners, magic etc much more difficult.

Are 4 chaos warriors all the same points, no matter what weapons or marks? Or are their no weapons or marks?

Could be you have basic army war scrolls and bonus cards with the latter being additional options such as weapons or magic items. Pre game you agree how many war scrolls/cards each player will be using.

The war scrolls balance each other out or there could be penalties for taking powerful characters e.g. Nagash is equivalent to 5 war scrolls.

Best I've got

So I bring my Skaven warlord and you bring Nagash... and that's supposed to be balanced?

According to the rumors, all the units and rules are being redone. Though the "base rules" are only four pages long, if they are doing each and every unit in the current fantasy line, that is a ton of new rules.

If they truly are redoing everything, then any previous experience with power levels of particular units (like nagash) wouldn't be relevant in the new system.

if USR's, weapons, and magic lore aren't included in that 4 pages of rules, and instead printed in the war scrolls then I think you could fit most of the existing WHFB rules on 4 pages in all honesty.

Sure it is possible to make a game work without having point cost. But I not see any avantage in replacing them with another system to balance the strenght of an army.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 namiel wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
No points lol.

Both players having the same number of slots avilable ad same number of units is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.

Works well in Wrath of Kings. You just have slots. At most you have "Ranks of 1 or 2" with rank 2's just taking up two of the previously mentioned slots. That said it'll be interesting to see what they do.

And you can't beat the price for a GW game and most of us already have a plethora of models.

Maybe it will work. Maybe it's just a simplistic kiddie game.

4 page rules and rules with units can be potentialy good as well but it all depends on the tactical depth of the game, and we already had rumors that it's less tactical than LotR. Then I dont know what happens with my dear grimdark.

I'm cautiously pessimistic.

Less tactical then LOTR? Lotr is/was the MOST tactical game of all 3 big games. It is SUPER easy to learn but difficult to master. If this ruleset is similar to LOTR then we are all in luck since that is a very tight and simple ruleset that allows for tons of tactics.

Sure but it's supposedly less tactical. How much less? Doesnt take much to ruin tactical play.

Lotr rules are quite short actually. The book is big but not a ton ruleswise and the ability to mix and match forces of all good or all evil really gives you endless combos which is fun since you can be competitive with many different lists. Its about roleplayers rather then all around beatstick units. Its creating the synergy in the army as a whole

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Games can work fine without points.

The only ones that I am aware of are historical games which are heavily based around scenario play. Even then there are usually some kind of suggested 'tournament' points system. The giant, huge, monstrous thing here though is balance.

There is almost no chance that GW will be able to effectively balance a points free game given that they can't manage to do it with a venerable points based system.

I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?

 mikhaila wrote:


Something I will be checking on right now, could be a huge game changer.

Let us know what you find out!

Perhaps it doesn't matter what a model has; there are no upgrades and it's flat stats for the unit. Allowing people to model but not causing confusion. But that doesn't seem likely...

I'm guessing we'll get:
4 page core rules
Scenarios + extras in the big book in the box
Warscrolls for all units
"Living FAQs"*


*If it's all planned to be digital then maybe they'll be more likely to update/correct stuff. Perhaps this is a studio design workaround when others don't like corrections to printed goods. We'll, again, see...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jambles wrote:
I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?

All units are getting Warscrolls to convert them over. Whether it generalises units/models together is to be seen (i.e. "Skaven troop melee" & "Dwarf long range").


EDIT: Also, the core stat types might be changing. So if it says "3+" for BS there's no more charts to consult. And leadership will be morale - roll D6 and add losses, lose that many wounds over your melee. And run will be move an additional D6 instead of shooting or charging.

ShaneTB wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?

All units are getting Warscrolls to convert them over. Whether it generalises units/models together is to be seen (i.e. "Skaven troop melee" & "Dwarf long range").

Okay, but where did you read about that?

 Jambles wrote:

ShaneTB wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?

All units are getting Warscrolls to convert them over. Whether it generalises units/models together is to be seen (i.e. "Skaven troop melee" & "Dwarf long range").

Okay, but where did you read about that?

From the store managers/reps posting what they've found out today. There might have even been a copy of the press release here but this thread is growing quick.

 Jambles wrote:
I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?

yes, scroll back a few [ages for the retailer info flyer, it specifies all old models will be useable (so at least in some form they will be)

The more I read the more I am interested, I do not see the no points cost thing being a problem if all units have data cards anyway as I assume there will presumably be some sort of power level to the cards.

Might even be tempted now, if there's dwarves about.

a four page rule system could be good, if thats just the core mechanics, and with everything skirmish based movement rules are a lot lighter.

Also if every unit gets a rules card, well there are a lot of rules that can go on the cards and out of the core.

No points.. can actually see that working, your 'choice' varies, so you could get say 20 goblins, or clanrats, or perhaps 4 knights or something - in effect you have points but not by individual models - its all unit by unit, then the models are skirmish - think how SAGA does it, seems to work.

Not in the least interested in the starter models but the rules sound interesting if they are this light, think about it.

Movement? becomes "you can move 'x' inches in any direction, you can't get within 2" of an enemy without declaring you will fight them. Perhaps a line on terrain being half rate, another that you can run instead of shooting to move again - thats about it - put the 'x' on the unit card, cavalry maybe get an extra, maybe you can go further if you will end in combat - if its half a page its overdone.

Ranged combat is similar, score to hit, few modifiers, close combat again similar - make one of the four pages a reference sheet with tables and you can get the core of the game probably onto two sides - leaving two sides for how characters and moral works.

Magic? its all on the spell and character cards.

Could be more streamlined than LoTR easily, and by putting rules on the unit cards they can provide a lot of flavour decently easily.


Actually interested, more so than for another rulebook thats hard to lift and in need of wheels.

Also perhaps speaks of GW having a desire to make supporting the game a lot cheaper, downloadable rules for current models, new stuff its in the box, get the core mechanics working simply and there isn't much to go wrong/FAQ

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?

yes, scroll back a few [ages for the retailer info flyer, it specifies all old models will be useable (so at least in some form they will be)

Cool cool, this thread is going too fast, I must have missed it!

 Jambles wrote:
I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?

Do we have anything OTHER than conjecture to go by on much of ANYTHING about AoS?

 lord_blackfang wrote:


You're a lazy reader, too. Wrath of Kings has been mentioned before you even asked.

X Hero slots.

Y Special slots.

Z Troop slots.

Each selection is balanced against all others in the same category. This might mean that a Troop of Skaven or Goblins is 10 models and a Troop of WoC is 3 models.

Also, everyone needs to stop freakin' assuming that stats will stay the same. For all you know, a Goblin Boss can solo 8 Bloodthirsters.

I wouldn't surprised if Nagash takes up a hero slot, a rare slot, and a monster slot... or something similar.

That is, if the rumor of "no points cost" is true.

There are ways around points. Can GW balance it? I don't know. We'll see Saturday.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?

Do we have anything OTHER than conjecture to go by on much of ANYTHING about AoS?

My point exactly It struck me as wishlisting, but apparently there's at least some concrete evidence for this.

I'm having a hard time believing a tabletop miniatures game with it's rules spread over 4 pages will have any type of depth. What size are the pages? Are they counting both sides (for a potential 8 sides)? What size is the font? Are there any diagrams to explain movement, LoS etc...? I still firmly believe these 4 pages are 'quickstart' rules and a full set will come soon after. The rulebook doesn't have to be a monster of one it can be quite compact and still hold a lot of info in, especially if large chunks of the fluff is left out.

I really don't think point costs are necessary if it's done right. Less math is more fun for lazy people like me.

They could color code unit types or give them a special icon. so you have the toughest guys = 2 not as tough guys = 4 regular guys = 8 wimpy guys.

if it really is a totally new game with new stats and powers and all, it could work fine like that.