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 Boss Salvage wrote:
I've been concerned about the possibility of options vanishing too, but I think we ought to admit that very few units appear in the 8E meta in more than one configuration. The change from 7E to 8E shook things up (saurus dropped their spears and picked up hand weapons, for example) because of core rules changes, but apart from weird hobbyists Doing Stuff Because Cool, players pretty much just take what's Obviously Good. It's the hypothetical drop of the wonderful common item lists of 8E that will hurt variety the most ... but a) who knows about character upgrades, and b) people tended to take the same stuff anyway
- Salvage

I think it's pretty much guaranteed options will vanish. There are simply too many variables in the old lists to account for on a simple no-points war-scroll. At the very least, they'll tone down the variability. No more "swords base, want spears? halberds? second sword? shield?". I could see it boiling down to possibly a few configurations: "1H only", "1H + shield", "2 hander".

Do I think there will still be a difference between Night Runners and Gutter Runners? Most likely not. Difference between Stormvermin and Clan Rats? 1 probably has smaller numbers, gets a better save and "2H" instead of "1H + shield".

I don't know, we'll see. I find the whole "no bases, measure from the model" to be the most abuse-prone thing in the whole list. I mean, look at this model:



Just turning the model will make at least an inch of difference in reach/movement/whatever.

 streamdragon wrote:


I don't know, we'll see. I find the whole "no bases, measure from the model" to be the most abuse-prone thing in the whole list. I mean, look at this model:



Just turning the model will make at least an inch of difference in reach/movement/whatever.

Not when I'm mounting my flying Skycutter on a double-height flying stance. Turn whichever way you like. No way you'll get into 3" melee-range of my model-not-counting-the-base, while I pepper you with arrows

Ya know, this game just isn't made for being to precise about it all, I would think.

 streamdragon wrote:
I don't know, we'll see. I find the whole "no bases, measure from the model" to be the most abuse-prone thing in the whole list.

Seriously. If I play this thing much, I may insist upon measuring by center mass. Even if that's up to some interpretation, it'll provide a far more consistent experience and allow for modeling variety.

- Salvage

As somebody who is also a GW retailer (and has been since the turn of the century) I can say that I feel like there's very little risk for us here.

We would never order 80 of anything let alone a GW product because we don't do that kind of business but even if we did I can't see needing 80 copies in the first week - which is what you're saying when you preorder that many. Because... you can just order again if you start running short.

So, I've always felt that regardless of what form AoS was going to take we'd order light, see how things go, and adjust course as everybody gets a chance to see how it's shaking out. People hate it? We didn't go all in so no big deal. It takes off? We order more. Easy peasy.

The thing is, on the surface this is EXACTLY what I think that they should be doing with Warhammer - assuming that it is a well designed game, of course. Miniature battle games are, on the whole, a lot to get a new player to swallow. So the idea of making the game something that you can start small in and then scale up is, in my mind, the best possible option.

I am concerned about the rules that we've seen so far. Not overly so. We haven't seen them all and I think that the war scrolls are really going to be the things that make or break the game.

For my customers, the way that they are bringing this out is great. All of the Warhammer players can just download the stuff they need to try the game, grab their minis and go. They can immediately tell if it's a game that they are going to want to keep playing.

For us, that immediacy for the customers means that we'll be able to tell very quickly whether or not to support it going forward.

I've personally been involved in the hobby for more than 30 years but I've long since moved on from GW where I would be emotionally moved by whatever they decide to do. At this point it's all business. I want them to make a game that I want to play and this seems to have the possibility to be that game but I'm not holding my breath.

This might seem like an odd question, but does anyone know the nature of the sales reps that deal with independent stockists?

More specifically, are they an internal group within GW, or are they a 3rd party company that GW hires to call independents and promote their games/get the independents to stock them?

Because here's the thing - GW doesn't tell anyone anything unless that person needs to know -immediately-. They didn't even tell the managers of their own stores until yesterday. That's how they keep such a tight lid on leaks, for the most part.

We don't need to doubt mikhaila or even the sales reps and managers he spoke to, I'm sure he is being truthful and is entirely legitimate.

What we can doubt is how much those sales reps and managers knew, especially if they're a 3rd party business that GW contracts to promote products. GW has a history of screwing independents over, why tell the sales reps anything GW thinks they don't need to know to generally describe a game?

I'm not saying that the core rules contain some structural system that we haven't seen, but that some other aspect of the game that we have yet to be exposed to contains said system.

That way, mikhaila didn't lie (why would he anyway), the sales reps and managers didn't lie (they just didn't know enough), and GW continues with their general modus operandi of telling independents zero info.

Haven't seen these directly inputted into the post so far so here are the leaked rules.

I still cant believe how gakky those photos are..

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Im defiantly seeing pieces of KOW, LOTR, and 40k in this. Not much whfb. So this game in no way can replace whfb but it might be a feasible fantasy skirmish game that ill have people to game with. This has the makings of an enormous flop or, like lotr, a misunderstood excellent, tight, and tactical ruleset

Best case scenario, it's a good game that they killed WHFB to make (which to me, a fan of regimental games, is still "meh" at best). Worst case scenario they killed WHFB to make a mediocre skirmish game in a market where I can't throw a cat without hitting another skirmish game.

Though they do say it can be played with lots of models.... but it it's another game like 40k where you have 100's of individual models and a movement phase takes you an eternity then I'm not interested. I've never been a huge fan of that aspect of the 40k rules system.

Im waiting to see 100% of the rules. I do love the idea of having anything you want pretty much on the table. I honestly would prefer a force org much like LOTR where its a hero followed by warriors of HIS/HER army not just any army. Lots of different combinations to create that one whole moving piece that is an army. In lotr mixing my elves, with ents and hobbits or my urkhai mixed with dead marsh specters, etc. This could be great for the game in a way that no one list really rules the roost but knowing gw balance is not their forte

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
This might seem like an odd question, but does anyone know the nature of the sales reps that deal with independent stockists?

More specifically, are they an internal group within GW, or are they a 3rd party company that GW hires to call independents and promote their games/get the independents to stock them?

Because here's the thing - GW doesn't tell anyone anything unless that person needs to know -immediately-. They didn't even tell the managers of their own stores until yesterday. That's how they keep such a tight lid on leaks, for the most part.

We don't need to doubt mikhaila or even the sales reps and managers he spoke to, I'm sure he is being truthful and is entirely legitimate.

What we can doubt is how much those sales reps and managers knew, especially if they're a 3rd party business that GW contracts to promote products. GW has a history of screwing independents over, why tell the sales reps anything GW thinks they don't need to know to generally describe a game?

I'm not saying that the core rules contain some structural system that we haven't seen, but that some other aspect of the game that we have yet to be exposed to contains said system.

That way, mikhaila didn't lie (why would he anyway), the sales reps and managers didn't lie (they just didn't know enough), and GW continues with their general modus operandi of telling independents zero info.

So why have those same GW reps suddenly changed from responding to direct questions from retailers with "I don't know anything about that" or "we're not allowed to discuss that yet" to saying "Yes. Yes, absolutely, that thing you asked about is happening, 100%, care to order 500?" - if the goal is to mislead retailers without outright lying, all GW had to do was stick to the MO they've been using for years now. And if a third party company did act as you describe, they'd be utter morons, because they're taking on the legal liability for the lies for no good reason.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
This might seem like an odd question, but does anyone know the nature of the sales reps that deal with independent stockists?

More specifically, are they an internal group within GW, or are they a 3rd party company that GW hires to call independents and promote their games/get the independents to stock them?

Because here's the thing - GW doesn't tell anyone anything unless that person needs to know -immediately-. They didn't even tell the managers of their own stores until yesterday. That's how they keep such a tight lid on leaks, for the most part.

We don't need to doubt mikhaila or even the sales reps and managers he spoke to, I'm sure he is being truthful and is entirely legitimate.

What we can doubt is how much those sales reps and managers knew, especially if they're a 3rd party business that GW contracts to promote products. GW has a history of screwing independents over, why tell the sales reps anything GW thinks they don't need to know to generally describe a game?

I'm not saying that the core rules contain some structural system that we haven't seen, but that some other aspect of the game that we have yet to be exposed to contains said system.

That way, mikhaila didn't lie (why would he anyway), the sales reps and managers didn't lie (they just didn't know enough), and GW continues with their general modus operandi of telling independents zero info.

So why have those same GW reps suddenly changed from responding to direct questions from retailers with "I don't know anything about that" or "we're not allowed to discuss that yet" to saying "Yes. Yes, absolutely, that thing you asked about is happening, 100%, care to order 500?" - if the goal is to mislead retailers without outright lying, all GW had to do was stick to the MO they've been using for years now. And if a third party company did act as you describe, they'd be utter morons, because they're taking on the legal liability for the lies for no good reason.

The sales reps who deal with 3rd party shops are GW employees(one of the guys who worked at the Chicago bunker moved to Memphis and started doing that is how I know). GW lets their people know of the big releases but are very sure to get those non disclosure clauses signed. The top dictates the release of information by the lower level employees. As you can see those were pre prepared blurbs

Sales reps for GW itself are all GW employees.

This only differs if the independent goes through a third party distributor, when the sales rep will be working for them.

Mikhaila owns two reasonably large stores from my understanding and deals directly with GW themselves, so was talking to a GW employee.

Those rules look alright as far as I've read them.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
@pretre: I emailed it to you and added it to the thread a couple days later, as I specified I would. You also copy pasted the second batch of rumors directly into the thread. I'm in the middle of a house move though, laptops still packed, and it would take forever and a day to locate and copy/paste on the phone, at the moment. But I'll copy paste it when I can.

Yeah, iirc, you only e-mailed me before it came true. I'll check again but don't see a specific post of yours.

So does the book from which these pictures were taken also include pictures of models and/or artwork? Personally I'm not really interested in the game, more in the figures, background and artwork.

timetowaste, it seems like your source was a little off about this... emphasis mine:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I'm chiming in that Age of Sigmar's is actually a board game. Told it's something like space hulk. The source that told me 7/11 was release day also told me this. So I'll run with it.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
My source said 9th at the same time. But AoS is a board game. So I've been told.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

TimW wrote:
Has anyone considered that Warhammer: Age of Sigmar is a different game from Warhammer Fantasy Battle and that we may still see a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle come out, alongside the new skirmish sized game?
Plus Age of Signar could actually be something akin to Space Hulk. A stand alone game, all inclusive. I'm just guessing here...

That's actually what my source told me: a game similar to Space Hulk or the assassin one that just came out. Bunch of models for a stand alone game that CAN port directly into the mass battle thing when it hits.

I guess it's a bit open to interpretation, though - maybe this sort of is like Space Hulk in a sense? Rules are in the box, all you need to play... but there is definitely no board like Space Hulk or the Assassins game. So yeah, hard to judge.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
This might seem like an odd question, but does anyone know the nature of the sales reps that deal with independent stockists?

More specifically, are they an internal group within GW, or are they a 3rd party company that GW hires to call independents and promote their games/get the independents to stock them?

They are hired GW employees. I actually interviewed for the job once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:


So why have those same GW reps suddenly changed from responding to direct questions from retailers with "I don't know anything about that" or "we're not allowed to discuss that yet" to saying "Yes. Yes, absolutely, that thing you asked about is happening, 100%, care to order 500?" - if the goal is to mislead retailers without outright lying, all GW had to do was stick to the MO they've been using for years now. And if a third party company did act as you describe, they'd be utter morons, because they're taking on the legal liability for the lies for no good reason.

Because previously they didn't know or couldn't say and now they do or can.

Talking to GW reps can be super frustrating and they understand that. I will sometimes get information that's "secret" but only after everybody on the forums already knows it. Frankly, most of the time they are in the dark as much as anybody.

Free miniature you say ? Yes please

 RiTides wrote:
timetowaste, it seems like your source was a little off about this... emphasis mine:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I'm chiming in that Age of Sigmar's is actually a board game. Told it's something like space hulk. The source that told me 7/11 was release day also told me this. So I'll run with it.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
My source said 9th at the same time. But AoS is a board game. So I've been told.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

TimW wrote:
Has anyone considered that Warhammer: Age of Sigmar is a different game from Warhammer Fantasy Battle and that we may still see a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle come out, alongside the new skirmish sized game?
Plus Age of Signar could actually be something akin to Space Hulk. A stand alone game, all inclusive. I'm just guessing here...

That's actually what my source told me: a game similar to Space Hulk or the assassin one that just came out. Bunch of models for a stand alone game that CAN port directly into the mass battle thing when it hits.

I guess it's a bit open to interpretation, though - maybe this sort of is like Space Hulk in a sense? Rules are in the box, all you need to play... but there is definitely no board like Space Hulk or the Assassins game. So yeah, hard to judge.

And I tracked both of them already. timetowaste85 is at two false.

 Wolf wrote:
Free miniature you say ? Yes please

Sorry Wolf I have missed this, where?

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

 Wolf wrote:
Free miniature you say ? Yes please

Sorry Wolf I have missed this, where?

Free Eternal with the WD.

You know, AoS as we know it now, does sound like a rather good introductory product. It lets prospective customers buy cool toys and not worry about points and FOC. That's something that cannot be overstated.

If it's supplemented with an actual game system later on that helps retain those customers, it might actually be the best thing GW has done it a long time, as far as the company well being is concerned.

 namiel wrote:
Im defiantly seeing pieces of KOW, LOTR, and 40k in this. Not much whfb. So this game in no way can replace whfb but it might be a feasible fantasy skirmish game that ill have people to game with. This has the makings of an enormous flop or, like lotr, a misunderstood excellent, tight, and tactical ruleset

I don't see any Kings of War in this. Kings of War is a huge mass battles game with tight movement rules where defense in depth matters. If anything, Kings of War is Warhammer 9th edition, considering the pedigree and rules design principles (KoW is WHFB, but zoomed out a level)
I also am not seeing much LotR in this, either. LotR's core system relied upon highly customizable warbands with captains in the lead. AoS's warscrolls seem to be uncustomizable unit boxes.

 pretre wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

 Wolf wrote:
Free miniature you say ? Yes please

Sorry Wolf I have missed this, where?

Free Eternal with the WD.

Yeah comes with the WD, when is the copy released ? I haven't followed WD for a very long time

I'm optimistic, after going through all 5 stages of grief I'm now in acceptance. Gonna get the big box set and see how it is. Honestly, due to my schudule and lack of free time, I doubt I'll even get to play it much, but since my old armies are supposedly still valid then that makes it worthwhile.

I'm also glad to see the switch to more of a skirmishy game. I just don't have the time or cash for big army games anymore. So I guess I'll see what it's like on sunday

Cheers Pretre. The real crux of this seems to come down to the warscrolls, I will be reserving judgement until we have seen some of these.

However, the rules do seem to be aimed at getting more people into the hobby with a "beers and pretzels" type game. This is not a bad thing? I just hope that the scope for greater complexity for veterans is there.

Should be this Saturday for the WD with free mini/rules.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If stores want to run tournaments (or simplify pickup games) all they need to do is set some limits for the games played in their store

eg 10 warscrolls worth (perhaps broken down by type if the warscrolls come like that)

after a few weeks everybody who frequents the store will know how much stuff they can bring

(just like not you could, in theory, rock up with 20,000 points of minis but you'd be very unlikely to get a game, or finish it before the store owner threw you out)

this is, of course, dependant on the warscrolls themselves coming with some sort of reasonable balance

(and even if they don't we've plenty of experience with people being obsessed with cherry picking the 'best' units with the 'best' options for their points based games)

this is certainly not going to be the WFB we remember (and the flyer rams that home), but it may (or may not) be a decent if simpler game. We need to see the war scrolls to find out and since they are going to be free (for now) the only ones really suffering are store owners who are being asked to buy sight unseen

and even they are being offered sweetners to do so, gamble it's a hit and get extra stuff etc,

don't gamble and pay more later,

uncomfortable but then that's business (would a smaller company launching something they'd had more access to beforehand give as much free stuff? I suspect not)

I think a lot of the viability of the game hinges on the warscrolls. Hopefully we'll see some leaked photos of warscrolls before this weekend. In order for warscrolls to be useful for balancing opposing armies the warscrolls are going to have to have size limits on the units.

For example, the Khorne Goretide in AoS includes one units of 5 Chaos Warriors and two units of 10 Chaos Marauders. I'm assuming that there will be respective warscrolls for each unit, Chaos Warriors = 5 models, Chaos Marauders = 10 models. The unit size has to be part of the warscroll if the part of the purpose of warscrolls is balance, 5 Chaos Warrios = 10 Chaos Marauders = 5 Stormcast Eternals with hammer and shield etc.

If GW wants anyone to be able to pick a box of the shelf and have a playable unit then each box is going to have a warscroll with the unit size being the box contents.

Working with that assumption I don't see how the game can scale up past skirmish size. If I want to use my 7ed WoC army with warscrolls, I'll have to break up regiments into warscroll sized units. Instead of 2 units, a regiment of Chaos Warriors and a regiment of Chaos Marauders I'll have 7 smaller units. That seems to me to be a very clunky and convoluted way to do a mass battle game.

If warscrolls don't have a definitive unit size, that's even worse for balance and power disparity.

This all looks utter gak..... I'm really unsure what to do with my armies now, I suppose I could try the bland kow game again or just jack it all in and get a new hobby.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Based on that evidence, and using Occam's razor as a guide, you can reasonably conclude that this is shaping up to be a steaming pile of horse gak

With a shovel.

For folks to use when looking for the pony.

I can't even build up a whole lot of enthusiasm for the figures in the box. There are just not enough of the ones I can even tolerate to make me willing to spend the money. (After painting up an island of Blood set for a commission, I had to admit that the Elves included were damned spiffy. The Skaven... with a few exceptions, were not all that good.)

The Auld Grump

 Formosa wrote:
This all looks utter gak..... I'm really unsure what to do with my armies now, I suppose I could try the bland kow game again or just jack it all in and get a new hobby.

You could try other games? Other games are fun too.