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Atleast AoS uses Chaos' sacred numbers again! Good job GW.. following your fluff while at the same time sacrificing it.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
I just can't believe the amount of stupid in the Daemons PDF *ALONE* Like, Skulltaker literally cannot die, he can keep rerolling failed saves... Gee, that's not broken at all? is it?

Generic Heralds with banners/steeds are gone. You can't use a herald of nurgle on palanquin, you have to use Epidemius.

Kairos can just change a result to anything you choose, Okay, my 36 attack die are all sixes. Skulltaker uses all 6's on his attack roll. He scores 3 mortal wounds per 6.

You have to dance to get the bonus for the Masque... You have to seduce a model... This is fething stupid...

EDIT: BTW, the guy who just used Minister of Predicaments from MTG as an example of regular design, that was a guest designed card specifically for M15, designed by David Sirlin, not by Wizards RnD. These new abilities are more closely compared to the MTG set Unhinged or Unglued... which aren't tournament legal BTW.

It would seem that GW have forgotten that many people still do play at LGS, and I doubt anyone is willing to look stupid just for a +1 bonus...

You may want to read the rules. Skulltakers do die because you only reroll a dice only once.

Kairos 's rule say you do it for a single dice roll, if you group multiple dice into a single roll, then it's your interpretation of the rules

Matt.Kingsley wrote:@PlaguelordHobbyServices

Except, you know, he CAN'T keep re-rolling saves as you can't re-roll a re-roll.

Kairos can only change a single dice roll per game, so only 1 of those 36 attack dice rolls is a 6.

You can easily ignore the silly 'dance/seduce' rules if you want, just tell your opponent you don't want either of you to look like a pair of twits.

I'll give you that the loss of banner heralds is annoying. I'm annoyed that I've lost Heirotitans for Tomb Kings. However there's no need to use hyperbole to make everything seem worse than it actually is...

At least Elves lost the dreaded BOTWD. That's got to be a plus for daemons .

Show me in the Age of Sigmar rules where you can't keep rerolling.

Chaos lost Skarbrand too,

And the one that hurts more is the loss of Kugath... I mean REALLY!!?!?!

Warhammer Top Trumps.... with Jazz hands.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:@PlaguelordHobbyServices

Except, you know, he CAN'T keep re-rolling saves as you can't re-roll a re-roll.

Kairos can only change a single dice roll per game, so only 1 of those 36 attack dice rolls is a 6.

You can easily ignore the silly 'dance/seduce' rules if you want, just tell your opponent you don't want either of you to look like a pair of twits.

I'll give you that the loss of banner heralds is annoying. I'm annoyed that I've lost Heirotitans for Tomb Kings. However there's no need to use hyperbole to make everything seem worse than it actually is...

At least Elves lost the dreaded BOTWD. That's got to be a plus for daemons .

Show me in the Age of Sigmar rules where you can't keep rerolling.

Chaos lost Skarbrand too,

And the one that hurts more is the loss of Kugath... I mean REALLY!!?!?!

@PlaguelordHobbyServices

The first page of the rule , under tools of war. "You can never reroll a dice more than once."

 AlexHolker wrote:

No, it's not. Which is why GW should have been capable of doing it themselves. You should never add a rule without knowing what that rule is meant to accomplish. Magic has used similar rules, but the rule done right makes it more than a different way of doing a coin flip - in the case of Master of Predicaments, the fact that picking an expensive card and your opponent guessing wrong gives you a bigger reward than picking a cheap card and your opponent guessing wrong encourages making an informed choice on both sides instead of the optimal play being pure randomness to avoid being predicted by your opponent.

There is literally no difference between you trying to 'predict' which hand I hide a dice in, or trying to 'predict' what a dice will roll, or what side a coin will land on. The odds are 50/50. Unless you can read minds, that is. Most coins have two sides. Most players have two hands. Most d6s have six sides and you have the same 50/50 chance to roll a 4-6 than you do a 1-3. What this mechanic is meant to accomplish is pretty obvious to me: a 50/50 chance to succeed at a given task. Nothing more, nothing less.

The mechanic is simple, really takes no more time than rolling the die, and is resolved and folks move on. If someone is so blatantly offended by this - simply roll the die instead, though it still baffles me how this simple mechanic is so offensive in the first place.

There's a long list of issues with this release, and this issue ranks right up there with 'I don't like the new logo!'. It's nonsensical and has no bearing on the game itself.

Wow, so I'm reading over the war scrolls and...

GW is now officially trolling its former customers, and making the WAAC players bray like donkeys for their game-breaking effects.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:@PlaguelordHobbyServices

Except, you know, he CAN'T keep re-rolling saves as you can't re-roll a re-roll.

Kairos can only change a single dice roll per game, so only 1 of those 36 attack dice rolls is a 6.

You can easily ignore the silly 'dance/seduce' rules if you want, just tell your opponent you don't want either of you to look like a pair of twits.

I'll give you that the loss of banner heralds is annoying. I'm annoyed that I've lost Heirotitans for Tomb Kings. However there's no need to use hyperbole to make everything seem worse than it actually is...

At least Elves lost the dreaded BOTWD. That's got to be a plus for daemons .

Show me in the Age of Sigmar rules where you can't keep rerolling.

Chaos lost Skarbrand too,

And the one that hurts more is the loss of Kugath... I mean REALLY!!?!?!

It's on the first page... Please read the rules before condemning them.

Now I've read the warscrolls. Some of the humour made me chuckle (just a little)
If I was 9 years old I could get into this game for a few weeks maybe. Otherwise it's a game you could play a couple of times for laughs .

Anyone remember MTG Unglued? Seems like a miniature model version of that.

And yet we'll no doubt see people taking it uber seriously and trying to develop points and a tournament system....
:-(

 Gimgamgoo wrote:


And yet we'll no doubt see people taking it uber seriously and trying to develop points and a tournament system....
:-(

Well, they've been trying it for 40K for years. Not a stretch to think they'd try it with AoS as well.

You seriously can't defend this pile of gak...

They're treating their now probably former customers like children...

You know what made Fantasy so appealing at least in my view? There wasn't some generic "good guy" race that you could pick and paint up whatever random colors you wanted to... Fantasy had no space marines, and it was better for it.

Before this gak I was at least interested in the game, they just needed to fix two things, the magic rules, and model costs... But GW keeps acting like it costs more to make less... 10 dudes on tiny square bases shouldn't cost dang near $80... no more so than 5 dudes should cost $60, it was exploitation at it's worst.

I feel sorry for people who've spent thousands of dollars on large armies. GW didn't deserve your money because now they're treating you like children. Newsflash GW, children don't want to play your game, Literally, I've seen people interested in your models, but they look at the price tag and they immediately say "You're joking... There's no way I'm paying that much money for this" And they're right. They can play similar, better games at half the investment cost. From actual companies who care about game balance.

Seriously, this is a gigantic fethstorm and I expect there to be some mass exodus. Sure, the models are nice and all, but they aren't going to be used for AoS, that's for sure. Already seen a Sigmarite converted into a space marine, that's the true use for these models. Conversion bait.

 Mort wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

No, it's not. Which is why GW should have been capable of doing it themselves. You should never add a rule without knowing what that rule is meant to accomplish. Magic has used similar rules, but the rule done right makes it more than a different way of doing a coin flip - in the case of Master of Predicaments, the fact that picking an expensive card and your opponent guessing wrong gives you a bigger reward than picking a cheap card and your opponent guessing wrong encourages making an informed choice on both sides instead of the optimal play being pure randomness to avoid being predicted by your opponent.

There is literally no difference between you trying to 'predict' which hand I hide a dice in, or trying to 'predict' what a dice will roll, or what side a coin will land on. The odds are 50/50. Unless you can read minds, that is. Most coins have two sides. Most players have two hands. Most d6s have six sides and you have the same 50/50 chance to roll a 4-6 than you do a 1-3. What this mechanic is meant to accomplish is pretty obvious to me: a 50/50 chance to succeed at a given task. Nothing more, nothing less.

I know, that's why I said what I did. If you have two rules that both do exactly the same thing in different ways, get rid of one of them. That's just good game design.

They (GW) and We (the gamers) NEED new blood or the hobby will die -its no use trying to keep selling to an ageing and declining number of people who want to play with toy soldiers - we need young people to join the game.

IF AOS accomplishes this then great - there are so many games to accomodate us old folks......

On the subject of silliness - have you played Magic - I remember plenty of coin tossing, chucking cards in the air and other fun before you even get to Unglued. Was that "just for kids"?

It's silly and fun, not serious *shrug*.

Call me a defender if you will, but I see no point falsely complaining about rules you've interpreted incorrectly or not fully understood.

And I doubt there'll be a 'Max Exodus'. Most people will just continue playing 8th and not care.

@ Mr Morden

Yes. Once you reach 18/21 (depending on where you live) it's unacceptable to have fun with silly things. All fun from then on must be serious.
Twister and Charades are kids games because they're silly... just ignore the fact that Twister was invented as a game for adults and more adults probably play charades than kids...

 Azazelx wrote:
It depends on whether it's fun or not. Mikhala seemed to think the game itself was fun and the flaws were more with the lack of balancing. If the game is fun, then it's fun, after all.

On a slightly cynical note, Mikhala is financially invested in selling the game (unless he managed to get out those 80 copies of the game he pre-ordered). It would be very poor business sense to tell everyone it's crap, don't buy it, I'm not casting any aspersions on his character and I'm sure he did have fun...it's just obviously everyone in the world has different views on fun (some people even think Russell Brand is funny, go figure!).

Personally I loved the WFB world, I started collecting in 1985 and despite dabbling in 40K it has always been fantasy for me, at some point I have had between 3'000 and 12'000 points of every army GW has ever produced....then about 8 years ago the first of my 3 kids came along, the missus went to part time work and all my GW stuff got ebayed for more essential child related stuff. A year ago the missus went back to full time work so I decided to get back into the hobby. I was stunned at the cost of the miniatures, especially the single packaged ones, what happened to 5 miniatures for £2.50? And how many miniatures did I need in a Skaven army in a 3000 point army!? (Still remember when they were chaos Ratmen).

I decided to look at alternatives and on a skirmish level for painting purposes Godslayer, Arcworlde, Mierce etc....some were a swing and a miss, others brilliant. When I heard that WFB might be coming out in a skirmish form I was really excited, I loved the Chaos warbands from the Realm of Chaos era, unfortunately I am really disappointed how it has turned out. I love the data sheets, even the dumbing down of the rules I can appreciate for my 8 year old....it just the lack of structure (house rules aside), I cannot get past whole unorganised mess of it all. Yes, I can afford to go and buy 10 Bloodthirsters, but I always preferred a balanced theme based army it's just more enjoyable for both players. I had put aside quite a lot of money to get a decent sized skirmish force for Wood elves, Bretonnians, Dark Elves and Warriors of Chaos, but I think I'm going to stick to Mierce's Darklands for my skirmish games...and I'll see what in my 5000point Forgeworld chaos dwarf army can be used in KoW2 when the book comes out shortly.

Just to confirm, yes I do have a sense of humour, shouting out random crap whilst playing with toy soldiers is just not my Idea of fun...unless I've been drinking, but then everything is funny when I'm slightly intoxicated (apart from Russell Brand, he's still not funny even then).

Well if my local GW is anything to go by there were a hell of a lot of people pre-ordering the box when the doors first opened this morning. Many were very excited by the "daft" rules as well.

Whether those box set sales translate into a healthy community for AOS is an entirely different matter.

 Mr Morden wrote:
On the subject of silliness - have you played Magic - I remember plenty of coin tossing, chucking cards in the air and other fun before you even get to Unglued. Was that "just for kids"?

And there was a reason why WotC removed all the silly rules.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:


And yet we'll no doubt see people taking it uber seriously and trying to develop points and a tournament system....
:-(

There's already at least one thread here on Dakka of folks talking about army-building rules creation, and surely points-cost ideas will be soon to follow.

I would -expect- some folks to try to figure out a 'tournament system'. I know that Mik in this thread, a store-owner, is holding a tournament next weekend, so I am assuming he'll be using some sort of tournament system, too, even if it is one he might cobble together on his own.

People take all sorts of things 'seriously'. There are people who take Pokemon and Yughi-oh seriously. One person's joke is another person's passion.

Oh my god! 20 page overnight!! Now it is impossible for me to read 200 missing page...

Any good bit please put it all in first page so I won't miss anything please?

Mine was the same, it was heaving and they had to replace the copies of white dwarf on the new releases shelf twice in the first 15 minutes. People seemed siked.

xowainx wrote:
Mine was the same, it was heaving and they had to replace the copies of white dwarf on the new releases shelf twice in the first 15 minutes. People seemed siked.

Coventry here, and you Sir?

It was actually great to see a buzz in the store. A big 8th edition battle today and then AOS games start tomorrow.

 AlexHolker wrote:

I know, that's why I said what I did. If you have two rules that both do exactly the same thing in different ways, get rid of one of them. That's just good game design.

Ah, gotcha. Either go strictly with the dice, or strictly with the coin-flip, or strictly with the 'pick a hand'.

I don't necessarily agree that has anything to do with 'good game design', but that's probably for another thread. My bad for misunderstanding your original reply, Alex. My apologies.

Solidcrash wrote:
Oh my god! 20 page overnight!! Now it is impossible for me to read 200 missing page...

Any good bit please put it all in first page so I won't miss anything please?

Basically:

I love it!

I hate it!

This is a new beginning!

This is the end!

Marmite.

 Denilsta wrote:

Just to confirm, yes I do have a sense of humour, shouting out random crap whilst playing with toy soldiers is just not my Idea of fun...unless I've been drinking, but then everything is funny when I'm slightly intoxicated (apart from Russell Brand, he's still not funny even then).

This is perhaps the most annoying thing for me out of all the reactions to reactions; I find slapstick comedy incredibly cringeworthy but think Frankie Boyle is hilarious, others will wet themselves watching Three Stooges or Paul Blart but find Frankie crude and entirely unfunny - everyone knows people have different tastes and senses of humour, but in this case a few folk seem to be willfully ignoring that so they can brand anyone who thinks these amateur dramatics "rules" are daft and/or cringe-inducing and/or childish as dour, humourless automata.

If as some are suggesting this does end up being popular, well, I guess that's that then. I'll be in the corner rereading fluff from when GW weren't a joke and weeping for the future of humankind(and the future of 40K).

Solidcrash wrote:
Oh my god! 20 page overnight!! Now it is impossible for me to read 200 missing page...

Any good bit please put it all in first page so I won't miss anything please?

I don't think I remember the last time a Fantasy thread hit 200

I think the only thing interesting that came up was the scenery. Which, I think, like the rest of the models kick ass. I'm quite certain I'll buy it & paint it (I am a terrain junkie), but I have no idea what I'll do with it, as it doesn't really fit the scifi meme. Maybe some ancient ruins of an abandoned Eldar homeworld or something. At least it looks kind of at home with Citadel Woods...

Don't forget "Everyone who likes AoS are kids/mentally slowed" (Yes, people have said that), Thraxas.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

Solidcrash wrote:
Oh my god! 20 page overnight!! Now it is impossible for me to read 200 missing page...

Any good bit please put it all in first page so I won't miss anything please?

Basically:

I love it!

I hate it!

This is a new beginning!

This is the end!

Marmite.

Thank ! Hah

I am off to model shop to buy me white dwarf! I don't know what I missed out.

 heartserenade wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
On the subject of silliness - have you played Magic - I remember plenty of coin tossing, chucking cards in the air and other fun before you even get to Unglued. Was that "just for kids"?

And there was a reason why WotC removed all the silly rules.

After my time - I remember it being fun......as this looks to be - but different strokes.

Personally more than in touch with my inner child....

Embarrassing.

Completely and utterly embarrassing.

The company that gave us Space hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic 40k, BFG Blood Bowl et al has been reduced to people shouting the loudest across the table, as part of the rules

GW have well and truly burnt their bridges with me. Like Obi Wan Kenobi, I will remember Anakin Skywalker as the good, decent, brave, and honourable man, and not the evil machine he became.

That's how I feel right now. The game I loved for 25 years has been reduced to this cluster feth!!


I you love 40k, PLEASE DON'T BUY THIS GAME. I know some people will be tempted by the models, but if the models sell well, GW will think they're on to a winner with this approach and 40K will be next for the AOS treatment.


Dakka members: what is KOW? Talk to me, please. Because right now I'm all ears. I need something to get me away from this AOS cluster feth!!!

@Do-I-Not-Like-That

Your best bet is the Mantic blog, plenty of KOW discussion in the past week http://manticblog.com/

This one especially http://manticblog.com/2015/07/01/want-a-good-reason-to-switch-to-kings-of-war/