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Relapse wrote:
I was just told the Mantic website was crashing a lot because of all the traffic happening on it. I know I was having trouble getting in to see stuff.
Any comfirmations?

In my experience, it's always been gak!

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
If we now have a "living rulebook" and warscrolls is there any chance of GW adding points/ a balance element if there is a big enough outcry about it?

No, because there is nobody to hear that outcry.

That was my first thought. I guess that red shirts could pass it "upwards" but those ivory towers are difficult to scale.

What I observed was the local GW employee saying that if people want to complain about the negation of WHB, the game which people have spent innumerable dollars and hours to play... he's had people threaten to write letters (sneer). Well, write that letter. Mr. GW employee will gladly give them the HQ address. This was not in a supportive way; it was entirely dismissive. People who have any problem with what GW deigns to bless them with... are the problem.

Prior to that, I had asked for a demo of AoS. Would have preordered then and there, except another demo was being run by a regular with a 10 year old kid, neither of whom were in sight till much later. I was told, no demo for me. No one was playing, but another demo was in progress, so do I want to have a walk through of rules for AoS? I said yes. Another store patron and I then played 8 glade riders and a spellsinger against a giant. It was one turn for me, one for giant. My entire 8 dude glade riders were destroyed, giant took 2 wounds. Giant player bought a giant, but I'm still going, why the hell do I want to play this game?

I mentioned I have 4 current WFB armies, and asked how can I build a list to play against an opponent? Was told, "well, we're gonna play a siege battle. I have empire, you have wood elves. I'm taking 4 cannons, 2 steam engines, and a super HQ (don't remember name). What do you take?" I said, "Uh... so you're saying I can take whatever I want? How does that makes sense? Please realize, I've played with a points and army comp system for 20 or so years of GW games." Response? "It's a new game. It's not about army building. You don't know what's better than what, neither does your opponent. Play lots and figure out what works. Go watch that game in the back corner with an experienced WFB player to see how Ogres vs. Chaos works."

I left without buying anything. I was a gigantic "sell crap to me" target, and was completely turned off by the approach taken by the local GW.

So, yeah. I think these legacy army rules are a cynical ploy to not have a total rebellion from legacy army players. But GW doesn't WANT us to play our oldhammer armies. We ALL need to toe the line, and buy into the new AoS hotness. If we have any issues with the rules, then WE are the problem. We should all get over the crap rules for our old crap, and buy new stuff! We shouldn't even like our old stuff because it is OLD!

At least that is the impression my local GW gave me. It's too bad, because I might have dropped several hundred dollars on legacy WFB models and AoS, but it was made clear that my oldhammer legacy ideas were not welcome. Oh well. Not sure what I'm going to do, now...

 Accolade wrote:
I've heard there were over 1,000 groups of storm hosts, all with different themes like "vampire", "monk", and "Viking".

.....and now, because of YOU....I have an overwhelming desire to do a small army of Simarines in grey, with wolfpelts.....

Zachectomy wrote:
How does initiative work in this game? Does everyone attack at once? Do you alternate based on whose turn it is?

In any case these rules look awful.

Starting with the player whose turn it is you alternate choosing one of your units and making all of their attacks. It means you sometimes have to prioritise a bit, which is new. Seemed weird at first.

 Mort wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


So far every time someone has come into this thread and gone "It's not that bad guys!" it is always followed with a "You can just XYZ the rules". Do you realise just how stupid that sounds? If everyone's solution to making the rules of this game work is to not use the rules as they are written then it's a problem with the game, not the people reacting to it. How can anyone not get that?

You never, ever, use any house-rules at all? You follow every single step in the book without modification, however small? GW games are perfectly written for you and your gang?

House-ruling the odd inconsistency or banning a broken unit or two are one thing. AoS demands reconstructing major game mechanics. They may as well just sell models and leave the player base to invent a game.

 Mort wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


So far every time someone has come into this thread and gone "It's not that bad guys!" it is always followed with a "You can just XYZ the rules". Do you realise just how stupid that sounds? If everyone's solution to making the rules of this game work is to not use the rules as they are written then it's a problem with the game, not the people reacting to it. How can anyone not get that?

You never, ever, use any house-rules at all? You follow every single step in the book without modification, however small? GW games are perfectly written for you and your gang?

What's your point? No, like a lot of us he probably doesn't, but does that change the fact that this has been a serious, long-running problem with GW's rulesets and only seems to be getting worse? Does it make it any less ridiculous that we have to rewrite the rules to make them work?

Playing the game as written is the default mode of play for literally every other game. This is only an issue for GW games as the design team is so fething incompetent that the games literally do not function without modification, they can't be played as written. This is an issue that most of us have been wanting to see fixed, yet it seems like GW is doing everything it can to make things even worse, actively mocking anyone who still dares to give them money.

I've been trying to turn my back on GW for so long...

Now it's so easy.

Thanks GW sales department!

Zachectomy wrote:
How does initiative work in this game? Does everyone attack at once? Do you alternate based on whose turn it is?

In any case these rules look awful.

The rules aren't bad. Have 3 games in now. Turn sequence is not set.

Each turn you roll off for who goes first. I gambled one game on moving up fast, and praying for the next turn. Got it and pulled off some nice charges. It was a risk, but i was going to get shot up either way.

So, my turn, i do hero stuff, move, shoot, charge, ...and then choose one of my units to pile in and attack, then my opponent does the same. What unit you choose to have fight has a lot of strategy to it. It's not like 8th where everyone fights. Just the nominated unit does damage. So no initiative score at all. Who goes when is determined by the players. Very interesting so far.

 mikhaila wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
How does initiative work in this game? Does everyone attack at once? Do you alternate based on whose turn it is?

In any case these rules look awful.

The rules aren't bad. Have 3 games in now. Turn sequence is not set.

Each turn you roll off for who goes first. I gambled one game on moving up fast, and praying for the next turn. Got it and pulled off some nice charges. It was a risk, but i was going to get shot up either way.

So, my turn, i do hero stuff, move, shoot, charge, ...and then choose one of my units to pile in and attack, then my opponent does the same. What unit you choose to have fight has a lot of strategy to it. It's not like 8th where everyone fights. Just the nominated unit does damage. So no initiative score at all. Who goes when is determined by the players. Very interesting so far.

I meant initiative in combat. Now it seems like skaven assassins and vampire lords are no faster than dragon ogres with great weapons.

The rules seem like they were written by someone who has never played a wargame and has literally no interest in learning how.

The melee rules with prioritising which attacks to make first really changes the game up a lot and gives it a board gamey feel. It probably hamstrings the armies that had ASF or high Initiative in WFB a bit though. But overall it's an interesting change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zachectomy wrote:

I meant initiative in combat. Now it seems like skaven assassins and vampire lords are no faster than dragon ogres with great weapons.

The rules seem like they were written by someone who has never played a wargame and has literally no interest in learning how.

Plenty of wargames don't use individually assigned initiative characteristics to decide the order that attacks are made.

 mikhaila wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I've heard there were over 1,000 groups of storm hosts, all with different themes like "vampire", "monk", and "Viking".

.....and now, because of YOU....I have an overwhelming desire to do a small army of Simarines in grey, with wolfpelts.....

One day, I'll make it up to your store, and ask how those Sig Wolves are going

 Bull0 wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
How does initiative work in this game? Does everyone attack at once? Do you alternate based on whose turn it is?

In any case these rules look awful.

Starting with the player whose turn it is you alternate choosing one of your units and making all of their attacks. It means you sometimes have to prioritise a bit, which is new. Seemed weird at first.

The old Chronopia and Warzone systems were like that, where one player would activate a unit, then his opponent would activate a unit, etc. There were actually a fair bit of tactics involved in trying to decide which units to attack with and which units were going to take a hit. I might actually make some Warscrolls for my Chronopia stuff and bring it in.

 Talys wrote:
If you wanted it to be base-agnostic, you could measure from the center of the base -- that would eliminate things like facing and square/round differences.

That still leaves the problem of having to overlap bases to be in melee range.

Zachectomy wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
How does initiative work in this game? Does everyone attack at once? Do you alternate based on whose turn it is?

In any case these rules look awful.

The rules aren't bad. Have 3 games in now. Turn sequence is not set.

Each turn you roll off for who goes first. I gambled one game on moving up fast, and praying for the next turn. Got it and pulled off some nice charges. It was a risk, but i was going to get shot up either way.

So, my turn, i do hero stuff, move, shoot, charge, ...and then choose one of my units to pile in and attack, then my opponent does the same. What unit you choose to have fight has a lot of strategy to it. It's not like 8th where everyone fights. Just the nominated unit does damage. So no initiative score at all. Who goes when is determined by the players. Very interesting so far.

I meant initiative in combat. Now it seems like skaven assassins and vampire lords are no faster than dragon ogres with great weapons.

The rules seem like they were written by someone who has never played a wargame and has literally no interest in learning how.

Like i said, the initiative is determined by the players. It's not based on models. There is no Initiative stat. If i'm charging in one unit, i know it gets to go first. But if several, i have to do some choosing. And so does my opponent. In some chases, like where i have a monster facing a horde, i don't really care. He could kill models, but more move up. Leave him for later. I look for where i need to knock out the enemy before he can hit me. You really have to play it to see it in action.

The thing is, don't judge things by WFB. This is a different game entirely. I keep getting surprised by things, if i try to keep assuming I'm playing WFB.

This is sounding more and more like they raided the Chronopia system, minus the comedy rules and stuff about the bases. Otherwise, it sounds like Chronopia.
This could be a good thing since who ever wins the initiative isn't going to be at a huge advantage.
I always thought the alternating system would be good in 40K, also. It would go a long way to limiting leaf blower armies.

Zachectomy wrote:
The rules seem like they were written by someone who has never played a wargame and has literally no interest in learning how.

I think it's the other way around: Someone who has played plenty of wargames was told to write rules for a war game intended for persons who don't want to spend more than a few minutes to learn rules, and who have no desire to ever spend more time than that reading a rulebook.

It's like, "We want you to write the simplest possible rules to play a game with the models. You get a bonus paycheck if it's done in less than 5 pages in 11 point font because we want it to print on 2 sheets of paper."

"But--"

"Do you want that bonus check?"

 Talys wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
The rules seem like they were written by someone who has never played a wargame and has literally no interest in learning how.

I think it's the other way around: Someone who has played plenty of wargames was told to write rules for a war game intended for persons who don't want to spend more than a few minutes to learn rules, and who have no desire to ever spend more time than that reading a rulebook.

Let me get this straight. Your assumption is that they designed a game for people who have no patienc/time to read a few pages of rules but have tons of patience/time to put together and paint large numbers of models? Bizzaro world.

Actually, what you described is a board game, not a war game with models on sprue.

 Fezza213 wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Any more leaks or are we still continuing the doom and gloom here? lol

Atia has some pics of stormhost eternal archers and what looks like stormhost troops wielding halberds and swords instead of hammers. There is also a pic she has of Khorne cavalry. No idea if this is stuff coming from next week or not, i would assume next week would be individual releases to compliment the AoS box set.

https://twitter.com/Lady_Atia

Everything there looks awesome.

Well, I guess I'm dumping my Vampire Counts to fund Stormhost...

 Talys wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
The rules seem like they were written by someone who has never played a wargame and has literally no interest in learning how.

I think it's the other way around: Someone who has played plenty of wargames was told to write rules for a war game intended for persons who don't want to spend more than a few minutes to learn rules, and who have no desire to ever spend more time than that reading a rulebook.

It's like, "We want you to write the simplest possible rules to play a game with the models. You get a bonus paycheck if it's done in less than 5 pages in 11 point font because we want it to print on 2 sheets of paper."

"But--"

"Do you want that bonus check?"

This was actually the design philosophy behind KoW, at least according to Alessio Cavatore. I don't think they pulled it off over in nottingham.

If someone wants to PM me their phone number and wants to host my pic/show it on here, I've already painted my white dwarf mini. Computer is still packed up from my move, so I only have the cell and can't load it myself. I don't think.

-edit. I can totally attach pics from my phone!!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Here is you. That X is the point sailing waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over your head.

Welcome to the internet. It happens.

And it looks like I can post from the phone!!

Relapse wrote:
This is sounding more and more like they raided the Chronopia system, minus the comedy rules and stuff about the bases. Otherwise, it sounds like Chronopia.
This could be a good thing since who ever wins the initiative isn't going to be at a huge advantage.
I always thought the alternating system would be good in 40K, also. It would go a long way to limiting leaf blower armies.

As far as I know, you only 'alternate' like that when choosing combats. Whoever's turn it is, picks one of their units. Resolve the attacks for that unit (not BOTH).

Then the other player gets to pick one of their units - it doesn't even have to be the one in the combat listed above. It can be another one they deem more important.

Back and forth until all combats are resolved.

As far as I can see, there are no 'simultaneous strikes', or 'auto-first-strike'. And as far as I can see, Charging gains you no benefit unless your warscroll gives you some benefit for Charging.

I like how you've painted the Sigmarite.

 Mort wrote:

Relapse wrote:
This is sounding more and more like they raided the Chronopia system, minus the comedy rules and stuff about the bases. Otherwise, it sounds like Chronopia.
This could be a good thing since who ever wins the initiative isn't going to be at a huge advantage.
I always thought the alternating system would be good in 40K, also. It would go a long way to limiting leaf blower armies.

As far as I know, you only 'alternate' like that when choosing combats. Whoever's turn it is, picks one of their units. Resolve the attacks for that unit (not BOTH).

Then the other player gets to pick one of their units - it doesn't even have to be the one in the combat listed above. It can be another one they deem more important.

Back and forth until all combats are resolved.

As far as I can see, there are no 'simultaneous strikes', or 'auto-first-strike'. And as far as I can see, Charging gains you no benefit unless your warscroll gives you some benefit for Charging.

It could be interesting to alternate entire unit activations. I know in Chronopia and Warzone it put shooty and close combat style armies on a more even footing and led to extremely tactical situations.

 ToxicBox wrote:

Spoiler:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
And it looks like I can post from the phone!!

I like how you've painted the Sigmarite.

Me as well. I like the gold helmet and silver armor but I might have gone with a darker color for the hammer handle, something like the old bestial brown.

Thanks! Yeah, I used the Tau Ochre for the haft of the hammer. I was too lazy to go get the darker brown pot from my room!

Seeing the Warcraft 2 style of armor in that photoshop mockup made me realize the models were awesome. Just...not 95% painted gold.

I like the lighter colored hammer handle myself. It carries the gold theme nicely and balances out with the colors on the shield.

I think you guys should give this game a try, I actually had alot of fun which I am shocked by. Don't get me wrong I miss the mathhammer. But I was playing with a friend and both of us remembered all the rules for our guys and didn't need to open a book and scan through rules. We didn't need to check recheck rules and try and bounce my always saves on a 4+ and his always hits on a 3+ rules off each other. It was really smooth. Only thing I can see a problem with is my ogres are fat and take alot of room 1inch apart with 10 ogres was pretty damn wide, it brough a whole new meaning to the word gut wall.

We used a self made point system tho. We took the points for a basic model say ogre 25 skink 5 or what ever it was " The base cost with no gear" and used that. We played a 1k game. The base points I mean are from the books of 8th the normal model cost. Unit of 4 ogres say 100 points I had 6 so it was 150 "not going to use the real numbers incase GW is watching -_-. Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean they are not watching.

It would be interesting to do freehand on those big, flat surfaces.

really tempted to do Basileans now.