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2015/07/07 18:13:04
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
judgedoug wrote: clamshell is the main good guy from the AoS set, but on foot instead.
Makes sense, since $33 sound too low for a mounted figure.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 18:14:04
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/07/07 18:16:43
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
judgedoug wrote: I do not know if this information has been posted yet.
Standing by my reputation in the rumor tracking thread, I reveal this
The Age of Sigmar $74 Book:
74 dollar book is NOT a big rule book. its the campaign setting. new warscrolls, new scenarios, full background, some new rules (but NO balancing rules). takes the place in official gw display rack of whfb 8 rulebook. It is different than the AoS box set 96 page book. different. its like a campaign setting for a rpg basically, with background and stats and adventures. but adventures for miniatures called scenarios.
dice cups for $40:
sculpted painted cast resin with fancy stuff on them geared to each faction. set of 8 special dice. symbols on ONES for whatever reason
new miniatures sets coming out:
different sprues of the same guys from AoS set, with weapon options like swords and 2-h hammers. arrows/bows.
clamshell is the main good guy from the AoS set, but on foot instead.
new terrain: balefull realmgates
The rulebook thing has been posted in spanish, so it is leaked.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
2015/07/07 18:18:14
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
judgedoug wrote: clamshell is the main good guy from the AoS set, but on foot instead.
Makes sense, since $33 sound too low for a mounted figure.
Yeah. I think the real litmus test of how successful this is, is how many people buy the clack $33 mini compared to, say, the DA chain or the new Librarian. Or, the Death Jester, if you want a less prominent faction.
Also, how many of the ginormous book sell, because both of these (and the sigmarite box) aren't easy auto-buys for 40k fans.
Edit: if I can build the sigmarites in the box to either bow/arrow or hammer, they might get me to buy a box I will probably pass on clampack solo though.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/07 18:22:16
2015/07/07 18:25:26
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Manchu wrote: I will definitely buy the book. I am also looking forward to seeing the dice shakers and dice. But eight dice seems a bit stingy and I don't like the idea of symbols on ones. Why associate your faction symbol with poor rolling?
'Cause, it's a single symbol, like the single pip of the normal 1 on a die. My buddy has a bunch of Space Wolf dice he had custom made, put the faction symbols on the sixes, and it tricks me a lot more than I thought it would. It just looks like a one at a glance... and especially if you're not used to the dice. I could see it on a die where they usually just put the #, but most of my d6's are pips.
2015/07/07 18:26:53
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Manchu wrote: I will definitely buy the book. I am also looking forward to seeing the dice shakers and dice. But eight dice seems a bit stingy and I don't like the idea of symbols on ones. Why associate your faction symbol with poor rolling?
'Cause, it's a single symbol, like the single pip of the normal 1 on a die. My buddy has a bunch of Space Wolf dice he had custom made, put the faction symbols on the sixes, and it tricks me a lot more than I thought it would. It just looks like a one at a glance... and especially if you're not used to the dice. I could see it on a die where they usually just put the #, but most of my d6's are pips.
I have specifically avoided any dice that have the faction symbol on the "1" (other than the LOTR dice from GW, but I only use them for LOTR), so I'm entirely used to the symbol meaning "great success!!" (or in the case of Bolt Action or Warmaster or other command/morale roll high=bad, exclaiming "DO NOT WAAANNNNTTT")
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2015/07/07 18:34:12
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Sigvatr wrote:All this "Players will work it out!" talk reminds me of how well the allies thing in 40k worked out. Everyone used it to build fluffy armies and...wait.
Players seem to be working things out nicely in this forum.
Chairman Aeon wrote:
Rayvon wrote: I wonder if GW expected so many heads would be exploding at the thought of no points values though, It should be expected somewhat, they have been doing it since the start, stands to reason its one of the key things that people expect with a GW game.
GW Suit: Jervis, you forgot the points values for models on scrolls.
Jervis: No, I forgot them from the rules. Most historical WARGAMES don't have points values, just forces available for scenarios.
GW Suit: Whatever nerd!
Points have never balanced a game, but certainly give the illusion of it. As a Rogue Trader player I can tell you their points value calculators didn't yield good points values. Like everything else, severely under or over costed and couldn't take into account edge cases where the model under or over performed.
The real problem is that GW has to fight against the inertia they created. Only in the GW bubble are these even things. Latter people followed their lead to re-inforce the belief it's the one try way.
Iain.
I just wanted to be sure you are not insinuating that GW introduced points systems into tabletop miniature wargaming. I used the points system in Chainmail when I played my first ever tabletop wargame (on a sand table no less) back in '77.
judgedoug wrote:I do not know if this information has been posted yet.
Standing by my reputation in the rumor tracking thread, I reveal this
The Age of Sigmar $74 Book:
74 dollar book is NOT a big rule book. its the campaign setting. new warscrolls, new scenarios, full background, some new rules (but NO balancing rules). takes the place in official gw display rack of whfb 8 rulebook. It is different than the AoS box set 96 page book. different. its like a campaign setting for a rpg basically, with background and stats and adventures. but adventures for miniatures called scenarios.
dice cups for $40:
sculpted painted cast resin with fancy stuff on them geared to each faction. set of 8 special dice. symbols on ONES for whatever reason
new miniatures sets coming out:
different sprues of the same guys from AoS set, with weapon options like swords and 2-h hammers. arrows/bows.
clamshell is the main good guy from the AoS set, but on foot instead.
new terrain: balefull realmgates
I think we can say the new hardcover being fluff, scenarios, and warscrolls is 100% confirmed now.
Manchu wrote: I will definitely buy the book. I am also looking forward to seeing the dice shakers and dice. But eight dice seems a bit stingy and I don't like the idea of symbols on ones. Why associate your faction symbol with poor rolling?
I have seen somewhere in recent days someone who has had custom dice made. Hell of a lot cheaper, and slap those symbols on the sixes. Everyone knows Rackham and Mantic splat dice roll way better because of that, haha
Chessex is a company that makes a lot of custom dice for different clubs and tournaments.
judgedoug wrote: clamshell is the main good guy from the AoS set, but on foot instead.
Makes sense, since $33 sound too low for a mounted figure.
Yeah. I think the real litmus test of how successful this is, is how many people buy the clack $33 mini compared to, say, the DA chain or the new Librarian. Or, the Death Jester, if you want a less prominent faction.
Also, how many of the ginormous book sell, because both of these (and the sigmarite box) aren't easy auto-buys for 40k fans.
Edit: if I can build the sigmarites in the box to either bow/arrow or hammer, they might get me to buy a box I will probably pass on clampack solo though.
Given the cost, I would do what I've been doing with plastic models for years. I use a dremel tool to carve out a 1/8" wide by 1/16" deep circular hole in the shoulders and every arm, then use very thin rare earth magnets to magnetize all arms and models so that switching out weapon builds is simple and cost effective. For less than a buck per model, each model can be loaded out with any weapons choice available on the sprue.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/07 18:40:33
2015/07/07 18:36:55
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Killionaire wrote: 15mm too small to 'look good'? nonsense! I have /6/mm Dropzone Commander Infantry that I think looks good and has plenty of room for personal touches.
Scale doesn't matter, model quality does. But the model size does have an effect on game quality: Some games suffer because of model mismatch: For example, Apocalypse, as a game, has no reason to exist in it's scale. It'd be a superior GAME as a smaller model game, as your individual infantry positions no longer matter.
Like I said, certain things which 28mm painters like to put onto single models is not possible (or practical) in smaller scales, like lettering, heraldry, OSL, facial expressions, jewels, NMM, et cetera. I think smaller scales can look AWESOME as a whole, but if you compare an individual infantryman in 15mm to an individual infantryman in 28mm, it's just not comparable. Show me an individual infantryman painted in 15mm that looks anything like a Golden Demon winner for a 28mm infantryman, and I'll take it all back.
Spoiler:
For example:
or:
[spoiler]
I'm cheery picking best of the best 15mm, but still:
agnosto wrote: And so GW learns the downside of free rules.......
Definitely a gamble on their part. If you don't want the AoS minis from the box, why would you buy the box? blue whippy sticks, dice, and the fluffbook are the only other things in there.
That said, i think a lot of people will buy this box. Models are awesome.
I'm more talking about the 264 page fluff book. It will sell, just not as much as a book that's pretty-much required due to rules content.
Absolutely. 10%? 5%? 1%? Really hard to say. The Basic Rulebooks were always a 50-100 per store order for me, depending on whether we already had the rules in a starter set. For a not needed Fluff book like this I'll be getting Pre-orders +1. Can't take a chance with expensive items like that, that no one needs. Then you take a look at the product, order more the next week if it's needed or you have faith in it.
I think it will sell more than a strictly fluff book because AoS appears to work better when played through a set scenario. Not that you need an "official" scenario but it's faster and lazier if something's already set-up. Plus the folk who like narrative games will probably want it to play out the battles in the story. Hmm..might appeal to LotR players? The killer here is the price for what you're getting but I don't think that they could have done it any other way.
Armchair developer mode:
I would make a book like this for each of the major factions (chaos, death, etc.) that include a number of scenarios that involve all of the armies belonging to each and a bit of the story from that faction's perspective. That would be more of a must-have item, I would think. 8 scenarios is a bit slim unless each one has options for different armies which would take up more space and add replay value. /armchair developer mode
Killionaire wrote: 15mm too small to 'look good'? nonsense! I have /6/mm Dropzone Commander Infantry that I think looks good and has plenty of room for personal touches.
Scale doesn't matter, model quality does. But the model size does have an effect on game quality: Some games suffer because of model mismatch: For example, Apocalypse, as a game, has no reason to exist in it's scale. It'd be a superior GAME as a smaller model game, as your individual infantry positions no longer matter.
Like I said, certain things which 28mm painters like to put onto single models is not possible (or practical) in smaller scales, like lettering, heraldry, OSL, facial expressions, jewels, NMM, et cetera. I think smaller scales can look AWESOME as a whole, but if you compare an individual infantryman in 15mm to an individual infantryman in 28mm, it's just not comparable. Show me an individual infantryman painted in 15mm that looks anything like a Golden Demon winner for a 28mm infantryman, and I'll take it all back.
Spoiler:
For example:
or:
[spoiler]
I'm cheery picking best of the best 15mm, but still:
Spoiler:
I can't paint 32mm models to that standard. *hangs head in shame*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 18:48:02
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/07 18:53:39
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Xyxox wrote: After much playtesting, Miniwargaming found that this game does not work, then they devise a points system that appears it may work:
Point system actually looks pretty descent.
However, the game still was essentially shuffling units forward and dicing it out. I fail to see where there is room for player-decisions, with the possible exception of which unit you pick in alternating cc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 18:54:55
2015/07/07 19:03:58
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Games Workshop is about making really cool models with which to build a model collection, and then giving some context to play them. For 30 years, they have not been about writing a wargaming system, and then building models for that system. It's all about making awesome 28mm miniatures, spending thousands of hours painting them, and playing with them -- or sometimes not, and just displaying them or building dioramas. The problem with 15mm is that it's impossible to make your infantry awesome, with the sort of detail you can get into 28mm. They're miniatures sized for gaming, not sized for painting.
The last thing in the world I want is miniatures that require just a quick drybrush to paint. I probably spend 5+ hours on every single model, even the most repetitive infantryman (and I'm pretty quick); an army represents, literally, thousands of hours of work that was all highly enjoyable.
I hate this attitude so much, because it represents everything that wrecks wargaming. Players who come in with awesomely painted armies who can't play for ****, and "just want to have fun" then whine when a better player stomps them and call them TFG or WAAC -- it's a WAR game, go do something other than WAR if "fun" is all you want, and leave wargames to people who are tactically minded and who want to do battle. Of COURSE I want to win. What other possible reason could I be playing a WAR game?
Who cares if your plastic toy soldier took 5 hours to paint or 5 minutes to paint? It's just a plastic soldier. The game is in figuring out what to do with it once you play it. If you want to take a thousand hours to fill a display case, good for you, but it dont expect me to make a weak army to play you.
If it's just all about miniatures, GW should rename themselves to Miniatures Workshop and get rid of all their stupid rules, and I'd be happy. But better that they go out of business, so they stop stealing customers from companies that properly test an balance games!
This mentality is so harmful to the community. I can't imagine you play the same opponent more than once, as who wants to deal with this attitude.
2015/07/07 19:05:53
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Xyxox wrote: After much playtesting, Miniwargaming found that this game does not work, then they devise a points system that appears it may work:
Point system actually looks pretty descent.
However, the game still was essentially shuffling units forward and dicing it out. I fail to see where there is room for player-decisions, with the possible exception of which unit you pick in alternating cc.
Did you notice they reverted to measuring base to base? Piling minis on top of bases looks like garbage in video.
GW seems to have put a lit of thought into inventing this game, then went to sleep and forgot everything they thought of and quickly put together a piece of gak.
2015/07/07 19:06:00
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Rayvon wrote: I wonder if GW expected so many heads would be exploding at the thought of no points values though, It should be expected somewhat, they have been doing it since the start, stands to reason its one of the key things that people expect with a GW game.
GW Suit: Jervis, you forgot the points values for models on scrolls.
Jervis: No, I forgot them from the rules. Most historical WARGAMES don't have points values, just forces available for scenarios.
GW Suit: Whatever nerd!
Points have never balanced a game, but certainly give the illusion of it. As a Rogue Trader player I can tell you their points value calculators didn't yield good points values. Like everything else, severely under or over costed and couldn't take into account edge cases where the model under or over performed.
The real problem is that GW has to fight against the inertia they created. Only in the GW bubble are these even things. Latter people followed their lead to re-inforce the belief it's the one try way.
Iain.
I disagree. Look at Infinity. It has points and is incredibly balanced.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Killionaire wrote: 15mm too small to 'look good'? nonsense! I have /6/mm Dropzone Commander Infantry that I think looks good and has plenty of room for personal touches.
Scale doesn't matter, model quality does. But the model size does have an effect on game quality: Some games suffer because of model mismatch: For example, Apocalypse, as a game, has no reason to exist in it's scale. It'd be a superior GAME as a smaller model game, as your individual infantry positions no longer matter.
Those look great! I agree, even small scale models can look awesome. And Dropzone is an awesome game, BTW!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 19:08:08
2015/07/07 19:09:39
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Killionaire wrote: 15mm too small to 'look good'? nonsense! I have /6/mm Dropzone Commander Infantry that I think looks good and has plenty of room for personal touches.
Scale doesn't matter, model quality does. But the model size does have an effect on game quality: Some games suffer because of model mismatch: For example, Apocalypse, as a game, has no reason to exist in it's scale. It'd be a superior GAME as a smaller model game, as your individual infantry positions no longer matter.
Like I said, certain things which 28mm painters like to put onto single models is not possible (or practical) in smaller scales, like lettering, heraldry, OSL, facial expressions, jewels, NMM, et cetera. I think smaller scales can look AWESOME as a whole, but if you compare an individual infantryman in 15mm to an individual infantryman in 28mm, it's just not comparable. Show me an individual infantryman painted in 15mm that looks anything like a Golden Demon winner for a 28mm infantryman, and I'll take it all back.
Spoiler:
For example:
or:
[spoiler]
I'm cheery picking best of the best 15mm, but still:
Spoiler:
Those are fantastic 15mm paintjobs, and they highlight my point exactly. If you said they were 28mm, they wouldn't even cone close to Golden Demon quality. They're also spectacularly hard to paint in 15mm, but would just be 'great' in 28mm, and not at all comparable to the 2 GD models in terms of visible intricacy.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not belittling the paintjobs; they're better by a mile than I could do in 15mm. I'm sure those same painters could do even nicer looking models in 28mm, too. Basically, whether your painting 15mm or 28mm, the smallest brush stroke is still the smallest brush stroke (about 0.1mm or a little less), so a bigger model just gives you more canvas.
By the way, I took silver and gold golden demon 2014 winners, so it's not like I wasn't cherry picking the 28mm either, though those two are probably not *the* best models I've seen, ever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 19:17:41
2015/07/07 19:14:51
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Xyxox wrote: After much playtesting, Miniwargaming found that this game does not work, then they devise a points system that appears it may work:
Point system actually looks pretty descent.
However, the game still was essentially shuffling units forward and dicing it out. I fail to see where there is room for player-decisions, with the possible exception of which unit you pick in alternating cc.
Did you notice they reverted to measuring base to base? Piling minis on top of bases looks like garbage in video.
GW seems to have put a lit of thought into inventing this game, then went to sleep and forgot everything they thought of and quickly put together a piece of gak.
Yep, really a silly thing to go back to measuring from the models. We tried in the first game, didn't work well, and we started getting a list of odd problems and questions, and just went back to using the bases. I've just made it a house rule and explain it in the rules for the tournament on Sunday. At this point, i'm not too worried by the "unbalance" that might be caused by square vs round bases, not with all the other new factors.
....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
2015/07/07 19:16:06
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
That's not a real balancing system. It's a five minute drum-up of some bare-bones guidelines to silence customer complaints. It even says "for your customers who feel that they need something like this to be successful."
Assuming that that's real correspondence and not just a hoax.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Napoleon
Malifaux: Lady Justice
Infinity: &
2015/07/07 19:16:42
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Accolade wrote: I think GW has bought into its own koolaid, and seems baffled that people would enjoy a balanced experience.
If that instruction sheet is real, then it's hilarious. They use "balanced" like a parent referencing the lingo of kids these days.
"Gosh, is that what kids are into these days? 'Balanced' games? Sheesh, what is he world coming to?"
You should humor them and try a few random games with random proxy units before you rush to judgement. If balance is defined as both sides having a decent chance to win, it actually is pretty good, either just eyeballing the armies or adding up wounds. Our games (3 myself, 10 or so between us) were remarkably close, way closer than we thought it would be.
2015/07/07 19:27:56
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Other sites, same timeframe. Supposedly from 'GW Staff'.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
2015/07/07 19:30:43
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I will probably pass on clampack solo though.
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
& 
