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Alcibiades wrote:
If the CH didn't have Reanimation Protocols as one of its options it would be much more sane.

Does anybody ever use Fleet or Shred instead?

Iv had Shred turned on me while i was locked in combat. its probably an ok idea to use if you are in a situation where you probably wont lose a single wraith.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.

I don't see where it lacks either mobility or killing power. Everything in the Reclamation Legion portion gets Relentless, and due to RP, isn't tied to hiding in cover either. Meanwhile, units like Tomb Blades and Wraiths are exceedingly fast, and Necrons still have probably the best Flyer transport in the game and one of the cheapest, while Ghost Arks can get a unit from their deployment zone to an opponents board edge in two turns.

Necrons have tons of mobility.

Meanwhile, they can put out an astounding volume of firepower. They may not have gobs of AP2 the way you can kit out an IG army to have, but they can put out enough volume to overwhelm almost anything,and most weapons can be used to at least *some* effect against literally anything. Menawhile CC units like Wraiths, Flayed Ones, and Lychguard can put out an insane amount of hurt once stuck in.

Agreed. I don't know why people always say Necrons lack firepower. From my experiences, I've almost tabled most opponents of mine. That has to say something.

Shred might have some use if something NEEDS to die.

Being Beasts, Wraiths and Scarabs already have Fleet...I personally think GeeDubs dropped the ball with this formation

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated

Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...

Why is my statement worthy of a face palm? You do understand that not everyone who plays is a hardcore must win at all cost competitive player, I personally find it unenjoyable when my army seems to be nigh unkillable. Add to that that it is no fun for my opponent, and I find no reason to play the army in its current state

 Jaceevoke wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated

Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...

Why is my statement worthy of a face palm? You do understand that not everyone who plays is a hardcore must win at all cost competitive player, I personally find it unenjoyable when my army seems to be nigh unkillable. Add to that that it is no fun for my opponent, and I find no reason to play the army in its current state

Did you play it with Decurion or CAD? I'm starting out Necrons but I hear the Decurion is too hard to deal with, so I usually bring a CAD and one or two formations to claim the bonuses for my friends

 Jaceevoke wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated

Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...

Why is my statement worthy of a face palm? You do understand that not everyone who plays is a hardcore must win at all cost competitive player, I personally find it unenjoyable when my army seems to be nigh unkillable. Add to that that it is no fun for my opponent, and I find no reason to play the army in its current state

Thats why the Combined Arms detachment still exists. It brings the army down to a lower power level overall, and you don't have crazy formation benefits.

 Jaceevoke wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated

Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...

Why is my statement worthy of a face palm? You do understand that not everyone who plays is a hardcore must win at all cost competitive player, I personally find it unenjoyable when my army seems to be nigh unkillable. Add to that that it is no fun for my opponent, and I find no reason to play the army in its current state

I'm with you. I was going to start Crons but as soon as the info about how strong they are started coming through it really turned me off them.

The right way to do a deciuran army was what was done in the Codex: KDK book. In that book it isn't the formations that make the army, they just provide bonuses for units you may want to take.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

As for formation bonuses being free, well, that's what formations do. Other armies have them, too, and as more books come out, more armies will have more of them. That's always the problem when an army is the "first" to get something new, but it's just a matter of time for other armies to get the same.

Difference is Decurion is not a formation bonus. It is a detachment bonus that is added on top of the already good formation bonuses.

Did I not make myself clear between my first and second posts?

YES, the Decurion adds an additional detachment bonus on top of the bonuses granted by (several, but not all) of the formations that make it up. I am not contesting that. My point is that the Necrons were the first to get this new system of army construction using a detachment constructed from formations and all the bonuses that go with it. HOWEVER, as new books come out, more armies will get the same thing. It could easily have been Eldar, Space Marines, or any other army to get it first and to get the same vitriol spewed at them for being the first to have the "new hotness."

Tann they are not arguing the style on which it is built. They are arguing the bonuses it gives are simply too strong!

Apparently I am still not making myself clear: It is only "too strong" because Necrons are the first to have it. This has ALWAYS been a problem with the way GW updates the armies, where one army gets something new and the others have to wait their turn to get it, too (just like with grav guns). There are more armies scheduled to receive an update this year, and I firmly believe that once more armies have the same system of army construction granting such bonuses, Necrons will no longer be seen as "too strong." The sky is not falling, people.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Apparently I am still not making myself clear: It is only "too strong" because Necrons are the first to have it. This has ALWAYS been a problem with the way GW updates the armies, where one army gets something new and the others have to wait their turn to get it, too (just like with grav guns). There are more armies scheduled to receive an update this year, and I firmly believe that once more armies have the same system of army construction granting such bonuses, Necrons will no longer be seen as "too strong." The sky is not falling, people.

I dunno, I personally see Eldar and Space Marines mainly getting their cheese nerfed, and having some army wide bonuses transferring to formations instead. So, if anything, Necrons will still be top dog after all is said and done.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Apparently I am still not making myself clear: It is only "too strong" because Necrons are the first to have it. This has ALWAYS been a problem with the way GW updates the armies, where one army gets something new and the others have to wait their turn to get it, too (just like with grav guns). There are more armies scheduled to receive an update this year, and I firmly believe that once more armies have the same system of army construction granting such bonuses, Necrons will no longer be seen as "too strong." The sky is not falling, people.

So, the next army that comes out will have a Decurion-style FoC that gives an army-wide 4+ FnP?

If the answer is "no", then you're missing peoples' point in this thread. The Decurion organization, which is likely something that every new codex is going to get is not the problem, it's the army-wide 4++ shenanigans, relentless shenanigans etc that are the problem.

It's entirely likely that the next codex that comes out is going to have a Decurion-style system, but the army-wide bonus is going to be like... fear, or soul-blaze or something equally useless. That is the problem. 7th edition Chaos Space Marines may have a Chaos-Decurion that's a series of formations within formations and all the bonuses that go with it, but if those bonuses are middling or crap then no one is going to care.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Shred might have some use if something NEEDS to die.

Being Beasts, Wraiths and Scarabs already have Fleet...I personally think GeeDubs dropped the ball with this formation

I think what they INTENDED is for Fleet to allow the Spyder to keep up with the other members of the formation.

What they SHOULD have done, I think, is have the Spyder give Feel No Pain to the formation instead of Reanimation Protocols.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

As for formation bonuses being free, well, that's what formations do. Other armies have them, too, and as more books come out, more armies will have more of them. That's always the problem when an army is the "first" to get something new, but it's just a matter of time for other armies to get the same.

Difference is Decurion is not a formation bonus. It is a detachment bonus that is added on top of the already good formation bonuses.

Did I not make myself clear between my first and second posts?

YES, the Decurion adds an additional detachment bonus on top of the bonuses granted by (several, but not all) of the formations that make it up. I am not contesting that. My point is that the Necrons were the first to get this new system of army construction using a detachment constructed from formations and all the bonuses that go with it. HOWEVER, as new books come out, more armies will get the same thing. It could easily have been Eldar, Space Marines, or any other army to get it first and to get the same vitriol spewed at them for being the first to have the "new hotness."

Daemonkin has one too and it aint that bad.

Isn't that what Carnival of Pain is, the Dark Eldar Coven one?

How do that, the Decurion, and the Khorne one compare to each other? Has anybody tried running them against each other?

Remember when the GW defenders were saying they realized they made a mistake with eldar, and all the 7th codexes were much more internally and externally balanced? Yup, then Necrons came out. Further proof that GW doesn't playtest rules or give a feth about balance as long as you buy your codex and more plastic crack. The only problem is there are less people buying every month and things like decurion are only escalating that pace. For every necron player that goes out and buys the codex and stuff to complete their decurion, there will be 3 people selling their ork, DE or BA army on ebay because they're tired of this gak.

 Toofast wrote:
Remember when the GW defenders were saying they realized they made a mistake with eldar, and all the 7th codexes were much more internally and externally balanced? Yup, then Necrons came out. Further proof that GW doesn't playtest rules or give a feth about balance as long as you buy your codex and more plastic crack. The only problem is there are less people buying every month and things like decurion are only escalating that pace. For every necron player that goes out and buys the codex and stuff to complete their decurion, there will be 3 people selling their ork, DE or BA army on ebay because they're tired of this gak.

Or, people could just not play with the Decurion. And Orks aren't bad, niether are BA. I actually haven't seen a BA player at my shop lose yet.

So your answer to GW putting out something that's OP is for people playing that army to voluntarily handicap themselves? That's so full of fail I don't even know what to say in response. Your shop must not be a good indicator of overall power level then. Orks and BA are in the bottom 4 of win % in 7th edition tournaments as tracked by ToF. They were in the bottom 3 at adepticon which plays closer to RAW than any other tournament I'm aware of.

 Toofast wrote:
So your answer to GW putting out something that's OP is for people playing that army to voluntarily handicap themselves? That's so full of fail I don't even know what to say in response. Your shop must not be a good indicator of overall power level then. Orks and BA are in the bottom 4 of win % in 7th edition tournaments as tracked by ToF. They were in the bottom 3 at adepticon which plays closer to RAW than any other tournament I'm aware of.

Well, I personally don't give a rats butt about tournament ratings, because 40k is an unbalanced game, and trying to play competitively really isn't going to accomplish much. Also, Necrons aren't the most OP thing out there. You still have Draigostar, Adlance, Centstar, and Serpent spam (granted that might change here soon). Necrons are nowhere near as cheesy as that. And I've lost 2 out of 12 games so far with Decurion (though, 1 game my friend made a huge mistake on how the Grimoire worked, so I probably would've won), and I've tied once (that was because of Obj Sec). Thats mainly because people don't know how to deal with them yet, seeing as I'm pretty much the only Necron player at my store. If it seriously gets to the point where I always win and never lose, I'll probably gimp myself by using a CAD, to make it fair. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop playing my favorite army. It's like my Eldar friend who acknowledges Serpents are OP. He rarely fields them, and if he does he puts bright lances on them.

Decurion is far from unbeatable, though trying to table your opponent isn't going to get you anywhere. Objectives win the game.

my only real problem is the Wraiths...even is the last codex they were one of the best CC units in the game now they have +1 toughness still have a 3++ and now can have reanimation protocols...i call Bos taurus fecal matter on that

 Commissar41.0 wrote:
my only real problem is the Wraiths...even is the last codex they were one of the best CC units in the game now they have +1 toughness still have a 3++ and now can have reanimation protocols...i call Bos taurus fecal matter on that

They don't have the most amazing damage output. If I could have the damage output from TWC or Bloodcrushers, I'd take that anyday. All Wraiths have is durability, and if they have the 4++ RP, shoot the Spyder first. There you go.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Commissar41.0 wrote:
my only real problem is the Wraiths...even is the last codex they were one of the best CC units in the game now they have +1 toughness still have a 3++ and now can have reanimation protocols...i call Bos taurus fecal matter on that

They don't have the most amazing damage output. If I could have the damage output from TWC or Bloodcrushers, I'd take that anyday. All Wraiths have is durability, and if they have the 4++ RP, shoot the Spyder first. There you go.

Bloodcrushers compared to Wraiths...Really? Bloodcrushers don't even do enough damage to make them worth it, their durability is terrible, and they aren't worth it at all.

I'm honestly starting to think you are really trying hard to deflect for how good the Decurion is.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Commissar41.0 wrote:
my only real problem is the Wraiths...even is the last codex they were one of the best CC units in the game now they have +1 toughness still have a 3++ and now can have reanimation protocols...i call Bos taurus fecal matter on that

They don't have the most amazing damage output. If I could have the damage output from TWC or Bloodcrushers, I'd take that anyday. All Wraiths have is durability, and if they have the 4++ RP, shoot the Spyder first. There you go.

Bloodcrushers compared to Wraiths...Really?

Not for survivability, mind you, but for S6 AP3 on the charge. Wraiths are WS4, with no AP base. You might be lucky to get a rend or two, but typically they just tarpit things.

A few years ago, army wide 4+++ would have been laughed at for its absurdity.

And yet here we are. Then again, same goes for rerolling a 2++, I guess.

Call me old fashioned, but an ability that powerful should either cost a lot of points, or come with some seriously heavy drawbacks.

 Blacksails wrote:
A few years ago, army wide 4+++ would have been laughed at for its absurdity.

And yet here we are. Then again, same goes for rerolling a 2++, I guess.

Call me old fashioned, but an ability that powerful should either cost a lot of points, or come with some seriously heavy drawbacks.

I'm still a firm believer that a 2++ save, especially a rerollable one, should not exist in the game. Yet, this is coming from the Necron player, so take that as you will.

 krodarklorr wrote:


I'm still a firm believer that a 2++ save, especially a rerollable one, should not exist in the game. Yet, this is coming from the Necron player, so take that as you will.

I don't know if you'll find anyone that can defend a straight 2++ (that old Dark Eldar thing that failed was...acceptable-ish), let alone a rerollable one.

lols, Is Khorne Daemon Kin that good with its decurion or is it just op necron as always?

Khorne deamon kin is not decurion. It's not about how the armies are constructed people! Read the posts! It's about the free ability of 4+ ignore every wound. It's busted.

 Icelord wrote:
Khorne deamon kin is not decurion. It's not about how the armies are constructed people! Read the posts! It's about the free ability of 4+ ignore every wound. It's busted.

Not against instant death. It'll become a 5+.