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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 12:40:27
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 13:09:32
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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motyak wrote: Ouze wrote: sebster wrote: So the Young Liberals are fething ridiculous, but no more so than Young Labor, their opposites on the left.
Wait, in Australia the Young Liberals are the right wing?
And our toilets flush backwards. Is your mind blown?
Well, all this stuff makes sense if I picture America and just turn it upside down.
Sorry for the tangent, I'm just fascinated with Australia. I'd love to visit someday.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 13:10:07
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 13:13:46
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: sebster wrote: I understand the idea that the person best suited to represent a group's interests is somebody from that group... That argument hinges on the assumption that no one outside that particular group can understand their particular situation, that this outsider would not have the intellectual or empathical ability to put him- or herself in the group's shoes. There is also the potential that it would raise a perceived barrier between the representative and the people he's meant to represent. There are things that women will feel a lot more comfortable talking to another woman about, due to the representatives first-hand experience of the issue or whatever. Having a man be their point of contact could result in less of these issues being brought up, which is bad for the welfare of the students. As an example, when was the last time you saw a male radiologist performing a mammogram? In many places you never will as some women will not feel anywhere near as comfortable undergoing a painful examination which requires them to be topless and which is performed by a man. Making all mammographers male would result in less people getting screened and so less cancers being found early, resulting in more deaths.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 13:26:42
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 15:16:39
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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sebster wrote:It’s not about being a path to respect, it’s about the fairly simple idea that representative positions should have representatives who are actually part of that community.
Fortunately, we have a method to fairly determine representativeness. At a predetermined time, all qualifying interested parties gather together for an election where they cast votes for candidates previously nominated to represent them. Objections as to those candidates can be raised at any time before or even during an election. It is called campaigning. Furthermore -- if the office has nothing to do with respect, as you claim, then it effectively has no reason to exist. For some women, it is harder to talk to another woman. The tricky thing is, some women are not all women. The politics around this issue have a nasty tendency to lump all women together, which necessarily leads to lumping all men together as well. This is inherently sexist; in fact, nothing could be more sexist -- not just in the technical sense, but in the sense of a socially destructive prejudice.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 15:21:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 15:36:45
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Hallowed Canoness
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Manchu wrote:Fortunately, we have a method to fairly determine representativeness. At a predetermined time, all qualifying interested parties gather together for an election where they cast votes for candidates previously nominated to represent them. Objections as to those candidates can be raised at any time before or even during an election.
Is there any country where someone can be elected as a lead representative (say, President or First Minister or Head of State or whatever) without holding the nationality of said country? And I mean can as in “It is allowed by the laws”, not just “Is it likely to happen”.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 15:50:30
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I have no idea nor do I see that it is relevant to this discussion. The gender of the candidate was not prescribed by any rule prior to the election.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:03:26
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Hallowed Canoness
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If you do not see how “Is there any country where someone can be elected as a lead representative (say, President or First Minister or Head of State or whatever) without holding the nationality of said country? And I mean can as in “It is allowed by the laws”, not just “Is it likely to happen”.” is relevant to
sebster wrote:It’s not about being a path to respect, it’s about the fairly simple idea that representative positions should have representatives who are actually part of that community.
, then I do not see it either. Maybe someone else will.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:05:20
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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And maybe someone else will understand that there was no rule prescribing the gender of the candidates in this case.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:05:21
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Manchu wrote:Fortunately, we have a method to fairly determine representativeness. At a predetermined time, all qualifying interested parties gather together for an election where they cast votes for candidates previously nominated to represent them. Objections as to those candidates can be raised at any time before or even during an election.
Is there any country where someone can be elected as a lead representative (say, President or First Minister or Head of State or whatever) without holding the nationality of said country? And I mean can as in “It is allowed by the laws”, not just “Is it likely to happen”.
You:
" There should be a position in the student council for women to go and complain about issues like sexism and gender discrimination...but the role should only be available for female candidates."
Sexism and gender discrimination.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:06:52
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Hallowed Canoness
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Deadshot wrote:You:
" There should be a position in the student council for women to go and complain about issues like sexism and gender discrimination...but the role should only be available for female candidates."
Can you show me where I said this?
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:06:55
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Instead of having a rule that only a woman can hold the office, why not have a role saying only women can vote?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:11:18
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Hallowed Canoness
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As far as I can tell, every country that elects its head of state have rules saying only citizen with the country's nationality can vote, and only citizen with the country's nationality can be elected. So I guess it might be possible to have both rules  .
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:11:43
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:15:52
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Again, that is irrelevant in this case. There was no rule about the candidates having to identify as women before the election. And there are no objections to the fairness of the election. The only objection is to the result, made after the fact. But I would like to hear people's thoughts: should women be able to vote for a male representative or should that choice be denied them before hand?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:16:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:19:25
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Deadshot wrote:You:
" There should be a position in the student council for women to go and complain about issues like sexism and gender discrimination...but the role should only be available for female candidates."
Can you show me where I said this?
That's what you seem to imply when you tried to compare this to a national election, where the voters and candidates must be citizens of the country. It comes across to me as if you are implying that only females should be considered and only women should be allowed to vote. If I misunderstand then please forgive and correct me, but that's what I got from your post.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:19:58
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Deadshot wrote: " There should be a position in the student council for women to go and complain about issues like sexism and gender discrimination...but the role should only be available for female candidates." Sexism and gender discrimination. Actually, that was what the university ruled in 2000, that the representative must identify as a woman. It was just a clerical error that that requirement was missing from the job requirement. On Tuesday, the TUU student council agreed the clause should exist in the job description and the position should be held by a woman. This decision upholds a 2000 ruling by the university’s Anti-Discrimination Officer that the Women’s Officer must identify as a woman “on the grounds that the role exists to advocate for women as a group who experience oppression in relation to men,” the change.org petition states. Also, considering that he resigned following a petition with support from the female student body it can hardly be claimed that he had their support or that they wanted him as their representative, for whatever reason. So his staying in the post would have only harmed the role, not the effect he wished to have. He can still work to improve the rights of women on the university. And perhaps you can answer this: Is it sexism and discrimination if women request a female technician to perform their mammogram as they are more comfortable with a painful and potentially embarrassing scan to be performed by a woman?
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:25:49
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:23:38
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Manchu wrote:Again, that is irrelevant in this case. There was no rule about the candidates having to identify as women before the election. And there are no objections to the fairness of the election. The only objection is to the result, made after the fact.
But I would like to hear people's thoughts: should women be able to vote for a male representative or should that choice be denied them before hand?
Absolutely not. Democracy, true democracy, should allow anyone or anything to be put to a vote by anyone (assuming they fall under the jurisdiction and have citizenship for the country) and the result being indicative of the will of majority. If people found such a result so undesirable then they should use the vote they are given to vote against that particular result. If they have no vote, and it doesn't effect them, they don't have a say. If they had a vote, and didn't use it, tough. If they don't like the result despite voting against it, and the majority rule still achieves that result, they should abide by it.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:25:12
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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A Town Called Malus wrote:Also, considering that he resigned following a petition with support from the female student body it can hardly be claimed that he had their support or that they wanted him as their representative, for whatever reason.
The petition had about 1000 signatures. From that we can infer a few possibilities: either more than 1000 qualified voters elected Ricthie or a significant number of the petition signatories did not or were not qualified to vote. In either case, the petition cannot show that qualified voters were opposed to Ritchie holding the office at the time of the election. A Town Called Malus wrote:Is it sexism and discrimination if women request a female technician to perform their mammogram as they are more comfortable with a painful and potentially embarrassing scan to be performed by a woman?
Yes that is sexism. Just like asking for a white person rather than black person because you are uncomfortable with black people in intimate medical situations would be racism.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:30:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:27:16
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Hallowed Canoness
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Deadshot wrote:That's what you seem to imply when you tried to compare this to a national election, where the voters and candidates must be citizens of the country. It comes across to me as if you are implying that only females should be considered and only women should be allowed to vote. If I misunderstand then please forgive and correct me, but that's what I got from your post.
I did compare both situation, but I did not said what was right in both cases. It is up to you to determine if restricting who can be elected to represent a group to people of said group is a good or bad thing. But just keep in mind that if you think such a restriction is inherently bad, then it means most modern democracies are bad.
Basically this does not force the answer either way, it just gives you some more distance from the issue.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:28:59
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Manchu wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:Is it sexism and discrimination if women request a female technician to perform their mammogram as they are more comfortable with a painful and potentially embarrassing scan to be performed by a woman?
Yes that is sexism. Just like asking for a white woman rather than black woman would be racism. Then perhaps you would like to comment on the fact that all technicians who perform mammograms on the NHS are, unless specifically requested, female?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:30:57
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:29:27
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Hallowed Canoness
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Manchu wrote:Yes that is sexism. Just like asking for a white person rather than black person because you are uncomfortable with black people in intimate medical situations would be racism.
And, i guess, like allowing only US citizen to run for U.S. presidency is xenophobic.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:31:45
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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A Town Called Malus wrote:Then perhaps you would like to comment on the fact that all technicians who perform mammograms on the NHS are, unless specifically requested, female?
I would say that is a sexist directive typical of patriarchy. How is it not xenophobic? The whole "birthers" conspiracy theory dramatically demonstrates how xenophobic it is.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:33:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:33:37
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Manchu wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:Then perhaps you would like to comment on the fact that all technicians who perform mammograms on the NHS are, unless specifically requested, female?
I would say that is a sexist directive typical of patriarchy. Really? So you think it has nothing to do with making sure that female patients are as comfortable as possible and to therefore get the most people to take part in the screening program and hence save hundreds of lives every year?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:34:11
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:35:27
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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A Town Called Malus wrote:
Really? So you think it has nothing to do with making sure that female patients are as comfortable as possible and to therefore get the most people to take part in the screening program and hence save hundreds of lives every year?
That must be why all OB/GYNs are female too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:37:53
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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A Town Called Malus wrote:Really? So you think it has nothing to do with making sure that female patients are as comfortable as possible and to therefore get the most people to take part in the screening program and hence save lives?
I think the assumption that women can only be comfortable getting a medical examination from another woman reveals some deeply sexist attitudes. There is no rational basis for women generally to be uncomfortable being examined by a health care professional solely as a matter of gender. What you are pointing at is a larger issue of shame and repression of sexuality, something I would characterize as Victorian. A system that perpetuates this is necessarily sexist.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:38:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:43:31
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Manchu wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:Really? So you think it has nothing to do with making sure that female patients are as comfortable as possible and to therefore get the most people to take part in the screening program and hence save lives?
I think the assumption that women can only be comfortable getting a medical examination from another woman reveals some deeply sexist attitudes. There is no rational basis for women generally to be uncomfortable being examined by a health care professional solely as a matter of gender. What you are pointing at is a larger issue of shame and repression of sexuality, something I would characterize as Victorian. A system that perpetuates this is necessarily sexist. I just covered a course on Medical Physics at university, taught by an ex-radiologist who in fact specialised in new mammogram techniques. The reason why mammograms are carried out by female members of staff is exactly because of the reason I just said, to reduce discomfort and save lives. It is not an assumption, it is based on many studies from many countries who run these screening programs and they all found that women were more comfortable having the procedure be performed by a female technician and so more likely to opt in to the screening program. When you're dealing with a situation where you are performing a painful procedure that can (potentially) induce fatal cancer (~1 induced for every 200 found), you need women to be as comfortable as possible to have a hope of getting as many people in the program as possible. That women feel ashamed or embarrassed of their bodies is very bad. However you don't fix that by forcing them to undergo a painful examination carried out by someone who doesn't know how painful it is to have a breast squeezed between two plates and who the patient is uncomfortable with performing the procedure.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:50:28
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:50:09
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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You did not ask and I gave no answer regarding how sexist practices should be corrected. You only asked if the practice is sexist. It is.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:51:55
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Manchu wrote:You did not ask and I gave no answer regarding how sexist practices should be corrected. You only asked if the practice is sexist. It is.
No, it isn't. It would be sexist to say that women have no say in who performs their examinations.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:52:00
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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A Town Called Malus wrote:
When you're dealing with a situation where you are performing a painful procedure that can (potentially) induce fatal cancer (~1 induced for every 200 found), you need women to be as comfortable as possible to have a hope of getting as many people in the program as possible.
Is that the same as when women go to have things put in their hoo-ha? I wonder if there's any discomfort or cancer potential there?
But again, that must be why all OB/GYNs are female.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 16:57:32
Subject: Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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[MOD]
Solahma
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That would also be sexist. But positing a hypothetical alternative that is also sexist does not demonstrate that the actual practice is not sexist. Discrimination on the basis of sex is sexism. A program which builds sex-based discrimination into its practice is sexist. Is this instance of sexism ruining lives? No -- as you argue, this is a case in which sexism may be saving lives. On the other hand, it arises from and contributes to perpetuating a larger, socially destructive trend of sexism. Even in its small way, this practice tacitly teaches/reinforces that women cannot and should not trust male healthcare providers to be professional and caring.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 17:05:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/16 20:18:09
Subject: Re:Male student elected as women's officer at University of Tasmania resigns following public backlash
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Deadshot wrote:That's what you seem to imply when you tried to compare this to a national election, where the voters and candidates must be citizens of the country. It comes across to me as if you are implying that only females should be considered and only women should be allowed to vote. If I misunderstand then please forgive and correct me, but that's what I got from your post.
I did compare both situation, but I did not said what was right in both cases. It is up to you to determine if restricting who can be elected to represent a group to people of said group is a good or bad thing. But just keep in mind that if you think such a restriction is inherently bad, then it means most modern democracies are bad.
Basically this does not force the answer either way, it just gives you some more distance from the issue.
Ah, forgive me then. I agree.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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