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 delta9heir wrote:
After being frustrated for a very long time with my boyz being clobbered again and again last night, I tried a new tactic, which has already been posted elsewhere, but I can't say it enough. Megaboss with DLS and a painboy is SO STRONG. Talk about taking hits for the team, this guy shrugs off everything. I highly recommend this with some MANz right next to him to do "Look Out, Sir". If this doesn't get your boyz across the table, I don't know what will.

would it be better to have a squad of boyz wirth him? then he can look out sir any big AP 1 or AP 2 shots onto a boy instead of a meganob model, and the warboss can take the rest.

 Glitcha wrote:


I've been preparing this list for a event.

Great Waagh Detachment

HQ
Big mek with MFF

Mek

Buzzgob

Troops
'ard boyz w/nob BP PK in a Trukk with ramx2
Shoota boyz in a trukk with ram

Elites
MANz Missile

Fast-Attack
3 Deffkopta
Dakkajet

Heavy Support
Deff dread 1 big shoota 1 rokket
Deff dread 2 mega blasters

LoW
Buzzgob's Big Mek Stompa

Hey Everyone, the event that I made this list was this past weekend. This list hit like a ton of bricks. With the Stompa vehicle hunting and blasting big bugs. I managed to finish 7 of 29. Made into the finals. Also the Stompa never died. He came close in one game, but most players tried to ignore him. Once they tried that, I moved Started to move the stompa closer to them and trying to assault their army. List was pretty fun to play. If you got the models, I'd say give this list a try and have fun with it.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
You guys are close with the math. A re-roll actually nets you the "original" amount multiplied by the chance to "fail". So for example, twin linked BS 2 ( my favorite example) is (1/3) + ((2/3)*(1/3).

Also, you guys are close with 56%, but it's not actually a 2/3 chance to not get it for each roll, it's (5/6) * (5/6), but you totally have the methodology right. Anyhow, it ends up being roughly 52%.
1 - ( (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) )

/end math rant
Sorry that took so long, I kinda like math



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the easiest way to calculate things with a re-roll is to do 1-(probability of failing the first roll and the second roll).

So back to the BS 2 example, it would be 1 - ((2/3)*(2/3)).
So, 5/9.

I'm just curious here, I don't insist that I'm right by any means. I calculate the odds at 66%.
The way I view it, is you have 4 rolls to get the trait you want. You don't really need to multiply the odds by if you fail to get it, because you won't be rerolling if you succeed.

Example: You roll for the warlord trait (1/6), you fail. You reroll to try and get the trait (1/6), you fail. You try with your second roll (1/6), you fail. You try with your re-roll (1/6) [sidenote: what happens if you get the same trait as you had the first time? I thought there wasn't a second reroll...].

So overall you have 4 chances at 1/6 odds which is 2/3 or 66%.

Well, that's close. You're totally right that you have a 1/6 probability that each roll nets you Master of Ambush, but the trick to this one is that each roll isn't independent of the last one (because once you roll a 3, you stop rolling/caring).

So the probability of the second roll isn't 1/6, it's the dependent on you failing the previous roll, so it becomes ((5/6) * (1/6)) or ((probability I failed the first roll) *(probability I succeed the second roll)).

Now what this means is that the full chain of getting Master of Ambush on four rolls, becomes (1/6) +((5/6)*(1/6)) + ((5/6)*(5/6)*(1/6)) + ((5/6*(5/6)*(5/6)*(1/6)). This is way too long and complicated for my taste (love math, hate arithmetic).

So, the easier way to do this is to remember that (probability of success) + (probability of failure) = 1... (probability of a draw = 0 in this case, just for completeness sake).

Now the probability of failing all four rolls is pretty simple (by comparison), it's just (5/6)^4 (probability of rolling not a 3 four times in a row). So we just do 1 - (probability of failure), and we get approximately 52% chance of success

Sorry for going on such a tangent, I realize this has very little to do with Ork tactics. Other than pointing out getting Master of Ambush with Da Finkin' Cap is 52%, so something you can plan on having in roughly half your games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I realize there is a fringe case of the last re-roll being a duplicate of the first re-roll... To clarify (because that last phrase is more than a little obtuse): If I roll a 1, re-roll that to a 2, then for my second warlord trait, roll a 4, and re-roll that to a 2.

I don't know what happens at that point. Do we get to re-roll that last one? Or do we invoke the "can't re-roll a re-roll" thing?

thanks for clearing that up all

considering i got it wrong and am doing A level probability and statistics in a month or so, its slightly worrying

52% chance is obviously not reliable enough to base a whole strat on. HOWEVER, in my 2K army i have 2 manz missiles in trucks, so just in case i get that 3, i can infiltrate them in some cover near my opponent to get on them turn 2 which is nice, but doesn't affect my overall strategy if i dont get it.

Hi guys,..

played a game last Sunday.. only just now have i recovered from my WTF moment...

I played a 1850 game against Necrons,.. and tabled the guy on turn 4. I almost exclusively took him out with my Bully boyz.

My list

HQ
Zhadsnark (WL) (threatkiller)
Warboss/Mega armour/lucky stikk/ C-Body (runs with bully boyz)

Troops
10 boyz-trukk (objective cappers or overwatch sponges)
10 boyz-trukk (objective cappers or overwatch sponges)
6 Bikerboyz (run with snarky) (threatkillerz)
5 bikerboyz and 1 nob with PK (threatkillers/late game cappers)
5 bikerboyz and 1 nob with PK (threatkillers/late game cappers)

Elites (Bully boyz form)
5x BBoyz in trukk (killers)
5x BBoyz in trukk (killers)
5x BBoyz in trukk (killers)

Heavy Support
10 Lootas (aim, fire!)
10 Lootas (aim, fire!)

My overall strategy with this list is to search for the 2 biggest threats and rush those with trukks and bikes evenly divided. The enemy has to split his focus on 2 threats which is hard for Crons since they are almost always outnumbered.

Anyways, Gork and Mork were with me. I deployed, as always,.. on the 12'' line. My opponent made the mistake to deploy his Destroyers on his 12'' line.. I rushed forward and took the shot... and made it. 12'' move, disembark 6'' and charge (after 'ere we go reroll i made it) Booyah! Krumping time!
Turn 1 charge with 2 bully boyz squad on his destroyer squad while threatening to charge his overlord on barge with my boyz and bikers..

From that point on it became a massacre... Tabled the guy on turn 4. Never expected this since i almost always get shot to green confetti...

Maybe some people like to try out this list sometime

I have something similar but I have more Bikes and no MANz/Trukk Boyz.

Trukk Boyz sound good though with MANz to take overwatch. Heck Gretchin could be viable, 35 pts to throw away overwatch shots.

I thought you could only move 6" and disembark 6"??

 Tiny_Titan wrote:
I thought you could only move 6" and disembark 6"??

Hmm.. lemme check.. i alway thought that a fast vehicle was able to move 12'' and then disembark

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:
I thought you could only move 6" and disembark 6"??

Hmm.. lemme check.. i alway thought that a fast vehicle was able to move 12'' and then disembark

if so, then i am EXCITED

It's up to 6 to disembark but Trukks can move 12 and then Flat out 12 to cover the distance quickly.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It's up to 6 to disembark but Trukks can move 12 and then Flat out 12 to cover the distance quickly.

this is what i thought

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
12'' move, disembark 6'' and charge (after 'ere we go reroll i made it)

can't disembark after a 12" movement.

It's still possible with a boarding plank and a 11-12 charge move to make it there turn one. Not something to build a strategy around, however.

Mehhh. seems i made a boo boo :( Still wouldnt have made that much of a difference in this game. Anyways... thanks for clearing this up!

I remember the glory days of 3rd ed when you could get a 20" charge every time. 21" with a red paint job.

Still, you can get a 6" move, 6" deployment, d6" run move, and with WAAAGH! you get a 2d6" charge, +2" with a boarding plank, and re-rolling one of your charge dice. That's an average 22" charge threat, potentially up to 32"! With choice units, this is just nuts. It's where regular Nobz do well in my opinion, since meganobz and bikes can't run. Put them in a trukk or battlewagon and charge something that thinks it's safe two feet away.

Too bad there's no WAAAGH! on the first turn.

 office_waaagh wrote:


Too bad there's no WAAAGH! on the first turn.

This, I mean clearly as a warboss you'd be waaaghing as soon as the battle begun, as you stormed over those hills you'd be bellowing, your orks, not like you were tryin to be sneaky or nuffin!
But im glad that list worked out well, looks great fun to play.

As for the MAboss with DLS. I stuck mine in a wagon with a painboy and 18 boyz (mek and Nob), literally such a powerful unit, using the MAboss to swallow anything but AP2 means the unit lasts untouched till combat, and then once your there you can go to town I've had the MAboss tank flame templates that would have eaten like 7 boyz, after a couple of those you've literally made back the MAbosses points just through saves, not to mention all his krumpin'!

Thanks everyone for sharing all the great list ideas and feedback.

To summarize, it sounds like the consensus winners are:
Warboss with Lukky Stikk and either bike or mega armor
Painboy
Meganobz in transport
Tankbustas in transport
Warbikes

Now that we have some ideas of what to include, does anyone have suggestions for how to effectively play these units? I know it will depend on the mission and opponent, but are there some generalizations assuming you are playing common opponents like Marines? For example, how do you use trukks to get MANz close enough to charge without the trukks getting wrecked first? Deploy them or keep some in reserve? Obviously, if you can advance and stay behind LoS-blocking terrain, that is a no-brainier, but that is often impossible.

The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Thanks everyone for sharing all the great list ideas and feedback.

To summarize, it sounds like the consensus winners are:
Warboss with Lukky Stikk and either bike or mega armor
Painboy
Meganobz in transport
Tankbustas in transport
Warbikes

Now that we have some ideas of what to include, does anyone have suggestions for how to effectively play these units? I know it will depend on the mission and opponent, but are there some generalizations assuming you are playing common opponents like Marines? For example, how do you use trukks to get MANz close enough to charge without the trukks getting wrecked first? Deploy them or keep some in reserve? Obviously, if you can advance and stay behind LoS-blocking terrain, that is a no-brainier, but that is often impossible.

I'll give my thoughts and some idea of what works for me with these units, for what it's worth.

MANz work well by being a giant distraction. They can absolutely wreck almost anything they touch, and with W2 and a 2+ they require concentrated fire to kill, but they're cheap enough that you can afford to lose them to draw most of an army's firepower for a turn. Point them at something you know your opponent values and move at top speed towards it. You'll force them to deal with the MANz and draw a lot of fire away from your main force. Just don't point them at grav, plasma, or heavy weapons. Sure, their trukk will probably get wrecked, but then you get to deploy, move, and charge in your next turn. Skorchas can be great tarpit insurance and for 5 pts each they're well worth it.

Keep a few tough, mobile units in reserve either off the table or just in your deployment zone out of LOS to go hunting after your opponent commits their army. Then either launch them at the decisive point or use them to go hunting for vulnerable units. Keeping MANz back like this also lets you bring them on in an area where your opponent has deployed fewer weapons capable of dealing with them. A backfield redeployment in the first turn is risky since it's a turn not spent closing the distance, but it can pay off.

Don't be afraid to pop your Waaagh! to make a key charge succeed. Don't hold on to it "just in case" a better opportunity comes up. It can be worth it to get those tankbustas an extra D6" to charge an important vehicle. Even on foot Orks can be surprisingly fast.

Mobility is useful for two things: hitting the choicest targets and playing to the mission. Bikes can excel at this, zipping around providing fire support one turn and then hopping onto an objective for extra victory points the next. Just remember, bikes are mobile fire support, NOT a close combat unit except under extreme circumstances. The dakkaguns are nice but their main use is for mobility, and you lose that if you get bogged down in combat. Not to mention your jink save. Decide whether it's worth putting a klaw on the nob with this in mind: it could buy you another bike with points left over for a shoota boy.

Painboy is highly situational, in my opinion. Put him in a big unit of 'ard boyz for a mob that's nearly invincible. But that 50 points can buy a lot of other great stuff. The worth of the painboy is down to the value of the unit he buffs. He's usually not worth it for min-sized MANz missiles in the end but can be great if there's a warboss, or in a unit of Nobz or Gitz. A 5+ FNP after a 4+ save is statistically equivalent to power armour. He's basically mandatory in a Green Tide.

Bottom line with orks is focused threat overload. Your opponent will try to bring an army that can deal with everything from heavy vehicles to light infantry. Try to make his anti-tank waste its time by only offering weak units, or by offering so many targets that they can't kill everything before being overwhelmed.

Personally, I don't like using mega armour on my warboss. I can see the point, but there have been many times where being able to run and charge with his squad has really saved the day for me. I would rather use a sacrificial character like a mek to deal with nasty enemy ICs.

Krusha has a point.
MA is nice on a warboss but imo I think its primary uses are; When you have a MANz unit that can't run anyway, or when your using it with the DLS for 2+ reroll. Other than that when loaded into units of boyz a warboss without armour is just as deadly, as he's not meant to be in challenges, hes killing off the rest of the squad while your boyz take the wounds.

However, I do still like the MAboss with DLS in a squad of boyz with a painboy. In my last game I was running him with a wagon full of boyz and I knew I was going to be getting some turn 1 DSing incinerators. So I rushed the wagon to mid table, his DSers came in behind the wagon, flamed it and stormboltered it, however he'd forgotten about my MAboss and I saved myself losing about 4 boyz, he popped the wagon and again I used the MA with DLS to tank. Then on my turn I multicharged, using a few boyz to tag myself to the GKs in my board half while the Warboss and Nob charged a couple transports. Meaning I managed to not take any casualties, tie up his unit and open up two vehicles to get at his juicy scions inside

But as said, the MA is situational, I certainly don't think its a mandatory upgrade. Its also 40pts. Recently I've been considering keeping my Warbosses much cheaper and running many many many many bosses by using a few horde detachments Warboss in every trukk?? choose your targets now fool!

Solar Shock wrote:
So I rushed the wagon to mid table, his DSers came in behind the wagon, flamed it and stormboltered it, however he'd forgotten about my MAboss and I saved myself losing about 4 boyz

No escape hits are resolved against random models, so you can't tank unless you're lucky to roll that it's a boss taking the wound.

ahhh missed that. I'll have to remember that next time. well that's one less use

The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Thanks everyone for sharing all the great list ideas and feedback.

To summarize, it sounds like the consensus winners are:
Warboss with Lukky Stikk and either bike or mega armor
Painboy
Meganobz in transport
Tankbustas in transport
Warbikes

Now that we have some ideas of what to include, does anyone have suggestions for how to effectively play these units? I know it will depend on the mission and opponent, but are there some generalizations assuming you are playing common opponents like Marines? For example, how do you use trukks to get MANz close enough to charge without the trukks getting wrecked first? Deploy them or keep some in reserve? Obviously, if you can advance and stay behind LoS-blocking terrain, that is a no-brainier, but that is often impossible.

Personally, I'd say Deffkoptas are a good competitive unit. This is mainly because they can scout and turbo boost 24." Great for jumping around the table and grabing objectives or diving in the corner for line breaker, if the mission has it. But to answer your questions, none of these units should be put in reserve. Warboss on the bike and pain boy on a bike with the warbikers would be good choice. Personally, if i'm going to run a warboss on a bike than it would be Zhadsnark (FW). If you are going seconded and you are worried about the MANz getting stuck in your deployment zone, you could always put their trukk in cover or out of line of sight. At that point, i'd recommend the RAM on the trukk. Turn 1 move 12" turbo boos 12". This maneuver should get the MANz where they need to be. For the Tankbustas, I'd recommend the Mek Junka as a transport option. Upgrade the Junka to be AV 13. Since the Tankbustas can't buy 'ard armor, they need a transport that can get them around. Once per game, the junka can be a fast vehicle. You can more 12" turbo boost 12" to get the tankbustas into a firing position for the next turn.

 Glitcha wrote:
Personally, I'd say Deffkoptas are a good competitive unit.

Until they start rolling on the Mob Rule table.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Personally, I'd say Deffkoptas are a good competitive unit.

Until they start rolling on the Mob Rule table.

Even with the lack of a character they are still good option, personally. Scouting threat that can hunt down light-medium armor and can move very quickly to get to an objective.

Just have one Deffkopta if you're gonna Scout/late game Objective and linebreaker. Mob Rule doesn't apply when they are dead

I'd add Mek Gunz and Lootas to the list of winners but obviously, Mek Gunz are dependant on whether you run Zhadsnark as a Warlord.

 Glitcha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Personally, I'd say Deffkoptas are a good competitive unit.

Until they start rolling on the Mob Rule table.

Even with the lack of a character they are still good option, personally. Scouting threat that can hunt down light-medium armor and can move very quickly to get to an objective.

A lone deffkopta actually seems like a decent idea. Just reserve it, bring it on when it comes on and then chances are your opponent is going to ignore it and then you can just scoot around threatening objectives late-game.

I also second the idea of single koptas, when I have spare FA slots and some points I will always grab a couple as single units. generally you are going to give up first blood, so even if you do take a copta you aren't actually losing it outright. Secondly you can always hide them behind BLOS if your super worried.

They can be very effective in maelstrom for you can pretty much boost straight for the objectives you need first turn. At 30 pts you've not invested a lot, yeh they die if aimed at, but that's why you have multiple. It still takes a units shooting regardless, so hopefully its taken some focus of elsewhere. They can also scout, so you can give them a change of deployment which can very handy in maelstrom. They can also be outflanked if you really need them to be or don't want them killed early game.

Solar Shock wrote:
I also second the idea of single koptas, when I have spare FA slots and some points I will always grab a couple as single units. generally you are going to give up first blood, so even if you do take a copta you aren't actually losing it outright. Secondly you can always hide them behind BLOS if your super worried.

They can be very effective in maelstrom for you can pretty much boost straight for the objectives you need first turn. At 30 pts you've not invested a lot, yeh they die if aimed at, but that's why you have multiple. It still takes a units shooting regardless, so hopefully its taken some focus of elsewhere. They can also scout, so you can give them a change of deployment which can very handy in maelstrom. They can also be outflanked if you really need them to be or don't want them killed early game.

That's why you keep them back in reserve. If they come on turn 2 or 3, chances are that first blood is gone by then.

That is true, but sometimes if say im running a trukk heavy list then I don't bother. As I know something is going to eat the dust, so I can then use them to grab a couple maelstrom early on.

I have also found;
Big mek on bike with SAG, with 3 koptas in reserves to be strong too. Coming on from a flank with 3 TL rokkits and the SAG is great fun

I've recently got 3 blackreach koptas and used them in a previous game as single squads. I must say they're really good. They fly around, grab points, annoy the opponent. And they're rokkit platforms that you can never have enough of. All in all, 2 koptas in single squads feel better than a unit of rokkit kommandoes for the same pt cost, unfortunately =(