Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!

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**koooaei**

That needs intense playtesting. D-scythes will be riding in a jinking unkillable serpent. If you disembark, you expose yourself to all the shooting that he has - and he has quite some. Besides, you're bunched up in a nice tight row of orks ready to get templated to death.

Anywayz, if you're running this trick, consider taking shootaboyz instead of regular boyz - this way you can at least kill more bikers and hopefully force a squad or two to fail ld.

Also, it likely won't work if you don't get 1-st turn.

**The Imperial Answer**

Well on the note of Jet Bikes if "Ignores Cover'" is the same as ignoring "Jink" then Orks may have a few options.

The Skorcha missles might be one, as they are a Str 5 Blast. But they are only AP4.

The Burna Bomb is identical to the missiles listed above, but are a large blast instead.

Between that and the Burna-Bommas BS4 shots they could destroy more than a few bikes.

Another thing to perhaps consider could be allies if you are wiling to entertain the idea.

Chaos Space Marines are Allies of Convenience with Orks.

Chaos Space Marines can have access to the Sicaran which can ignore Jink.

This means in theory you could have a Sicaran sitting beside a Kustom Force Field (Bigmek, Junka, Morkanaut, Meka-Dread) flinging shots out at Eldar Bikes.

**koooaei**

Burna bomber won't be effective - they're 3+ armor. If you get skorcha missiles, they're small blasts and need to hit, than to wound and than to go through armor. Not likely to kill anything. You'll deal more wounds with regular shots.

Besides, eldar need 9 scatbikes to statistically glance an ork flyer to death in one go. 18 if you jink. Not counting penetrates that can also wreck it. And that's without twin-linking or skyfire that they can occasionally obtain from mysterious objectives.

I believe, there are better solutions than our flyers.

**The Imperial Answer**

Speaking of Armor what about the Belly Gun ?

I notice its 72" range, STR 7, AP3.

The Skull Hammer Gun is also a 60" range, STR9, AP3, Apocalyptic Blast.

**koooaei**

Could work. Just pray he doesn't get a 6 on one of D - cannons.
and you should preferably get 1-st turn or steal the ini.

**The Imperial Answer**

Its not really the ranged D-Weapons that concern me at times.

With the Mega Force Field unless I fail a save (which can still happen) and they roll a 6 (which can happen) I'm not too worried.

It's the melee wraith knight that that concerns me.

Also I could out-flank the Belly Gun or Skull Hamma Gun.

**Frozocrone**

Mek Gunz are probably best against Bikes. Lobbas in particular which don't really care for line of sight. Others can force the Jink and then it's not as much firepower to deal with.

Me, I think I'll stick with my Biker Troops. Unit of 5 Scatbikes only does 2.9 wounds after jinking with night/turbo-boosted, 1.4 if both. about 4 if neither of those things happen. Point for point trade, so not as bad as it could be imo

**Solar Shock**

The point of the blitz brigade (I will defeinitely be testing it, 1 wagon away!) would be that either you get turn 1, or you outflank them (they can choose outflank right? haven't looked at the sup in a long time).

If you get turn 1 and disembark (using shoota boyz ofc) you can unload a serious amount of fire power into him. If he doesn't jink when you fire those Killkannons then more fool him. Once he's jinked you've effectively reduced his fire output, so turn 2 when those wraith roll up, his bikes shouldn't be hammering you so hard. But I do agree it needs playtesting. Rokkits on the wagons too will help force jinking.

As for other options;
Our bikes seem a very good idea, as does perhaps plenty of mek gunz. Lobbas are so cheap I can't imagine why I wouldn't want a couple 5 strong units, simply for the fact they don't need LOS. So you can effectively always be forcing saves on the bikes.

Flash gitz in wagons? I mean he has to declare jink before you roll AP(right?), so you have a 50% chance that if he doesn't your going to mulch him, that's probably enough to force him to jink. Not to mention you will likely be forcing quite a few wounds anyway.

**Frozocrone**

Yes, Scout confers Outflank.

Not sure how I feel about Outflank all of them though. Maybe have one of the battlewagons provide cover for them all, or get a few expendable trukks in front of them.

Ofc course, disembarking Shoota boys is plausible.

**Glitcha**

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
I'd have to agree that the ideology that "Boyz before toyz" is no longer apply. I believe this change when the new codex came out and we saw a shift. Instead of taking boyz before other stuff, I think its now the other way around. Now Toyz before boyz, or in some case grots. Personally, I don't run grots unless they are on kannons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also how do you get 7 destroyer hits with the krusha ball?

In Kastorel-Novem, the Krusha Ball is a "Titan close combat weapon" in its profile description.

Titan close combat weapons add 3+ attacks to the profile of the unit.

In this case the Stompa starts off with 4 so it gets 3 more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So how is this build for a Kustom Stompa

Kustom Stompa - 770 points (exact same points cost as the Codex Stompa)

- 2 x Deff Kannon with Super Gatla
- 1 x Deff Arsenal.

Despite the Stompa being limited in melee with this build you gain:

> 2 x 72”, STR 10, AP1, Massive Blasts

> 120", 3D6, STR9, AP3 + D3 Supa Rokkits (each an Infinite Range, STR 8, AP3, Large Blast)

> 48”, STR 7, AP3, Heavy 2D6 shots
( This attack can be made up to 6 times, 3 for each Deff Kannon with Supa-Gatla, if no doubles are rolled).

I was just checking on the extra attacks on the stompa you brought up because if thats the case, i've been playing mine wrong. On page 192 of IA:8 it says that the attacks are already included on the profile. The profile says it has 4 attacks. Does this mean that with no TCCW, Stompa has only 1 attack? Altho, when you look at the other stat lines they all say the stompa has 4 attacks. Even the Kustompa stompa? I'm just trying to make sure I got this right.

**Solar Shock**

Frozocrone wrote:
Yes, Scout confers Outflank.

Not sure how I feel about Outflank all of them though. Maybe have one of the battlewagons provide cover for them all, or get a few expendable trukks in front of them.

Ofc course, disembarking Shoota boys is plausible.

I agree, if you get second turn, maybe outflank the weapon loaded ones with the busta's and such. Leave a couple that have boyz inside as initial targets. If they DS in and flame up some shoota boyz im not exactly worried. D templates kill boyz just as much as other templates

Plus the pricetag of DSing wraith as pure elder requires quite a bit, and with DE allies still requires a 100 pt WWP carrier or a raider, not to mention the cost of the allies overall.

**The Imperial Answer**

Glitcha wrote:

I was just checking on the extra attacks on the stompa you brought up because if thats the case, i've been playing mine wrong. On page 192 of IA:8 it says that the attacks are already included on the profile. The profile says it has 4 attacks. Does this mean that with no TCCW, Stompa has only 1 attack? Altho, when you look at the other stat lines they all say the stompa has 4 attacks. Even the Kustompa stompa? I'm just trying to make sure I got this right.

The Stompa has 4 attacks regardless of whether or not it has a melee weapon. Even the Kustom Stompa.

According to these rules (which are more current than those of IA8):

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/apoc6thupdate.pdf

All titan close combat weapons add 3 attacks to the Super-Heavies profile.

**Glitcha**

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Glitcha wrote:

I was just checking on the extra attacks on the stompa you brought up because if thats the case, i've been playing mine wrong. On page 192 of IA:8 it says that the attacks are already included on the profile. The profile says it has 4 attacks. Does this mean that with no TCCW, Stompa has only 1 attack? Altho, when you look at the other stat lines they all say the stompa has 4 attacks. Even the Kustompa stompa? I'm just trying to make sure I got this right.

The Stompa has 4 attacks regardless of whether or not it has a melee weapon. Even the Kustom Stompa.

According to these rules (which are more current than those of IA8):

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/apoc6thupdate.pdf

All titan close combat weapons ddt 3 attacks to the Super-Heavies profile. [/quote

Thank you, just want some clarification.

**koooaei**

Solar Shock wrote:
...

I think your approach could work! Add in some msu scouting koptas to eat overwatch and score points and you're golden.

**The Imperial Answer**

So looking at the Kill Krusha's profile I notice one of its shells is a large blast rokkit (STR 8, AP3).

Is this (perhaps) worth considering ?

**Waaghboss Grobnub**

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Solar Shock wrote:
Problem with Zhandsnark, is that its his warlord trait which grants bike troops and disables big gunz. So in effect you can't bring him in a second CAD. I suppose you could make him primary though? Although it does state he doesn't allow big gunz in the 'army' and not detachment I believe. I think its a little iffy.

Against Scat bikes, personally I think upgrading to big trakks or gunwagons would seriously help. Atleast that way they are looking at AV12 or 13 on front. As trukks are going to be torn apart.

Actually due to the odd rules for the moment you can run artillery alongside Zhardsnark.

Big Gunz no longer exist.

They are Mek Gunz now.

And there is no restriction against Mek Gunz in Zhardsnark's profile (though Forge World will probably correct that in the future).

Yep this.. It prohibits Big Gunz... NOT Mek gunz.... Grey area... i know.. but technically allowed

**pickled_heretic**

office_waaagh wrote:
pickled_heretic wrote:
yes, as discussed earlier here and a few other places, the rokkits are not really practical in this MU because of their relative short range.

kmks at least force a jink, but an artillery unit with a 36" range facing off against a bike squad that can move 12", shoot 36" and jetpack 2d6. Look at it from the eldar player's perspective, and you can see that it's a much more flexible, more dangerous unit, that, depending on the situation, will not actually take a single casualty from the KMK unless it misplays or is forced to from outside situations.
It's not so much about finding a single unit that can counter scatterbikes as it is some combination that will overwhelm them. I suggest something like Green Tide for board control to limit their mobility options, Lootas and artillery to keep them hiding or jinking or pick them off when they expose themselves, lobbas to barrage them if they try to hide out of LOS, and bikes to go hunt them down. Basically use the Tide to cut the amount of board they have available in half, shoot anyone that sticks their heads out, and send the bikes to go dig them out of their holes.

Sure, their bikes are good. We still get T5, 4+, and 3 TL S5 shots for 9 points per model less. And then we get 4 attacks with furious charge and HoW. They're better. But all is not lost.

For all that they're powerful at shooting, they're weak and die easy. The only thing they can do is try to stay out of range, which will limit their mobility. They might outrange our KMK, and one or two units will be able to just avoid them, but 36 scatter bikes? In units of 6? They're big models, no way all of them will fit behind LOS blocking terrain, and no way they can all stay out of range of all of our guns. So let them waste time shooting at a Green Tide. By the time they kill it, we'll have them cornered and then we'll eat them. They can't shoot everything.

The tabletop is finite. They can't stay out of range forever. They'll run out of real estate eventually. A trukk moves 24" in one turn. Even rokkits will reach the back of the enemy deployment zone after one turn of movement. Their survivability rests on their mobility, so we take that away from them. And then we kill them. And if they bring 36 scatterbikes, they'll do a pretty good job of taking it away from themselves since they'll get in each other's way.

Am I being optimistic or unrealistic? Maybe. Maybe I am. But I'd rather have one bad but actionable plan than all the complaining in the world.

Two things:

If we throw a bunch of units on the table, and jetbikes are good against all of them, the (right) answer for the eldar player will be "more jetbikes." A bunch of units that are bad against jetbikes will fare no better than one big unit that is bad against jetbikes.

Second, while the tabletop is finite, and running them to the edge might have worked otherwise, eldar players can also forgo their shooting to turbo boost 36". That's a total of 48" movement (they can't jetpack in that circumstance, little consolation that is). It is unlikely that you will ever be able to pin down a squad of jetbikes unless you are playing on an unusually small table or the points for the game are huge.

**OrkaMorka**

tag8833 wrote:
Blitz Brigate might be a solution. A wraith Knight can kill almost 1 Battle Wagon a turn. And Jetbikes can kill them if they choose to. If you get 1st turn, you might do OK. At LVO I played a pretty good Blitz Brigade list. It looked something like this:

Spoiler:

Ork CAD:
Warboss (MA, DLS)
Mad Dok

14 Tankbustas + Nob (BP)
14 Tankbustas + Nob (BP)
14 Tankbustas + Nob (BP)

14 'Ard Boyz w/ Nob (PK, BP)
14 'Ard Boyz w/ Nob (PK, BP)

Blitz Brigade:
Battlewagon (RR, Rokkit)
Battlewagon (RR, Rokkit)
Battlewagon (RR, Rokkit)
Battlewagon (RR, Rokkit)
Battlewagon (RR, Rokkit)

I don't think the Army is big enough.

6 x 6 bikes (if an elder player really wants to run something that odd) will just single out each vehicle.

I'd say it be best for the groups to get smaller and more spread out.

Save the points on big mobs of tankbusters and put smaller man groups in trukks to make a bigger spread of fire power and start working the spread of firepower.

The smaller our army is to counter something will not work very well from what I've seen. No one or even several units will survive, but with multiple small units it's a matter of spreading out the damage.

You can only kill one group at a time with one unit. So I'd rather a trukk and a group of 12 boys get shot up by a squad of bikes, than a BWagon glanced to death and then a big mob get whittled down.

The armies coming out now are starting to push into having more Fast Attack for Orks than anything. Small, faster, and harder hitting units to get in their face. Stormboyz, Bikes, and Deffkoptas to try and spread out the damage. Groups of shoota boys, lootas, and mek guns to hit them while the fast attacks chase them around.

If D-weapons and scatter lasers are the biggest threat, give them smaller targets. The bigger the target, the more points sunk into something that might not make it past turn 2 to get into attack range.

**FratHammer**

Don't be a nit picky rules lawyery Eldar player. If I was a TO I would never allow a name change on a unit to allow an obvious ban on a unit to be overturned. And it says army, so don't be like, but it's in another detachment. Because those didn't exist either.

**Solar Shock**

FratHammer wrote:
Don't be a nit picky rules lawyery Eldar player. If I was a TO I would never allow a name change on a unit to allow an obvious ban on a unit to be overturned. And it says army, so don't be like, but it's in another detachment. Because those didn't exist either.

TO's generally play RAW i thought

**The Shadow**

office_waaagh wrote:
Battlewagons will certainly give bikes a headache, but I'm concerned about all the D that eldar will be able to throw around.

Strength D is still pretty expensive though (which means less bikes, psykers and other stuff) and, with a few exceptions, it needs to get in close, which is where normal boyz can simply charge and wreck face. Even 5 Wraithguard with D-scythes are only killing ~8-9 with Wall of Death, so the other 10 or so boyz, plus the PK Nob, can pop out the battlewagon and wreck them in combat. Other stuff is more long-ranged, but even so, no way near anything like the threat distance of Jetbikes. Considering orks have a pretty high threat distance themselves, they should be able to close it down.

Wraithknights are another story really, since they're just that broken. Even mass combat is vulnerable from stomps. Still, mass of fire/attacks plus PKs and poisoned attacks from painboys may be able to bring it down.

**pickled_heretic**

Yeah, the unfortunate side of stomp attacks is they can be used to snipe klaw bearers. WK are still fairly vulnerable to tarpitting though so WK is not even really a primary concern of mine. Even D weapons are not really a lot better than S10 against our light armored vehicles. In the Ork V Eldar MU it's mainly the scatbike that has me depressed. There is simply nothing in the codex that I would call "solid" against them. small blasts will rarely hit more than 1 model. And they mince anything that is av10-11.

I am leaning toward aggressive use of blitz brigade with kill kannons with shoota mobs. It's definitely not a silver bullet though, as In the open, bikes are 2:1 in terms of shooting down shoota boys vs getting shot. But at least you have the 18" total movement with flatout which denies the jetbikes of their mobility somewhat. And unlike trukks, who die as soon as the jetbikes look at them (with a somewhat decent chance of also getting blown up and killing half of the guys inside) it actually takes a commitment of shooting with several jetbikes to kill the battlewagons who can only be glanced to death.

I'd be more open to zhadsnark and his biker troops if it weren't FW, which sadly limits its usefulness pretty heavily in our locale.

**Frozocrone**

Tankbustas are pretty good against a Wraithknight. 4's to wound and ignore armour. Bomb Squigs mitigate poor BS too.

Even if you only cause like 4 wounds it's still a VP from knocking three wounds/hull points off a LoW (I have only just learned this).

Zhadsnark will probably be gone as GW is moving away from take X for Y to become Troops. I hope not though. Zhadsnark is probably the only reason I play Orks (aside the Archbishop of Banterbury and his SAG).

**The Imperial Answer**

Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

Yep this.. It prohibits Big Gunz... NOT Mek gunz.... Grey area... i know.. but technically allowed

Yes for now.

Unfortunately Zhadsnark will never be extremely useful to me as I plan on using Kans and Dreads.

**Solar Shock**

pickled_heretic wrote:

I am leaning toward aggressive use of blitz brigade with kill kannons with shoota mobs. It's definitely not a silver bullet though, as In the open, bikes are 2:1 in terms of shooting down shoota boys vs getting shot. But at least you have the 18" total movement with flatout which denies the jetbikes of their mobility somewhat. And unlike trukks, who die as soon as the jetbikes look at them (with a somewhat decent chance of also getting blown up and killing half of the guys inside) it actually takes a commitment of shooting with several jetbikes to kill the battlewagons who can only be glanced to death.

I'd be more open to zhadsnark and his biker troops if it weren't FW, which sadly limits its usefulness pretty heavily in our locale.

My thoughts too, I know the math on the jetbikes means that they can effectively glance BW's down, but in reality if you have 5 and make it difficult to see anything other than front armour than they can't even glance them down. Yeh technically 5 units of 6 bikes could glance down a BW each, each turn. But in truth that isn't going to happen if you play to avoid it. Also like you said, the movement of orks on a waaagh is going to be pretty powerful coming out of a BW.

As for Zhandsnark, I would seriously try talking to your locale meta, as some of the FW ork stuff is really viable and in reality isn't exactly broken. Take the gunwagon and bigtrakks, I mean compared to a trukk they are significantly harder to simply scatlaser away. AV13 or 12 on front seriously reduces the fact that scat lasers can simply sit directly in front of trukks and blow them apart. Also, by squadroning them you have to shoot the closest vehicle, so considering rotating isnt moving you can actually form shapes that actually prevent side armour unless those bikes are willing to get very very close

And with a 2D6 escape move.... well that could end up going sour very fast.

So 3 gunwagons at 180 points, stocked up with shoota boyz in the front vehicle, bustas in the next two, they would require the bikes get into some seriously dangerous ranges if they want to focus down the bustas. If they want to go for the shoota boyz next turn you are going to be jinking, at which point you've got the bikes on the back foot.

**Rismonite**

I like the first turn strike capabilities of the blitz brigade soo much more than any MSU build. I feel like if you are even second you could redeploy a foot backwards to put you at fringe incoming fire and mostly on AV14 fronts. Unlike trukks of tankbustas which could get piece mealed and left to hang out of range after the jsj move (if they don't run).

Scout option feels strong.

**Mr.T**

Frozocrone wrote:
Even if you only cause like 4 wounds it's still a VP from knocking three wounds/hull points off a LoW (I have only just learned this).

Paste source, please

**The Imperial Answer**

Mr.T wrote:
Frozocrone wrote:
Even if you only cause like 4 wounds it's still a VP from knocking three wounds/hull points off a LoW (I have only just learned this).

Paste source, please

It's one of the Escalation rules.

I believe 3 Hull Points or Wounds from any Lord of War is considered a victory point.

**Minijack**

I wouldn't be so hasty in ignoring our flyers...

The Burna Bomba isint the one to use against bikes,,The one you want is the Blitza Bomba.

1- Bomb is Str7 AP2 Armorbane large blast that only scatters d6.

2-Bombing run takes place before intercept fire and is placed anywere along the move path,so any target up to 32" from the edge.

3-The Bombing run is NOT a shooting attack so NO JINK against it,unless the target has an invuln its pretty much dead models on a 2+

4-Str 7 doubles out any t3 multiwound fancies.

And finally,when the plane is shot at you can jink at will and still drop the other bomb the next turn,,.because of the non shooting attack status of the bombing run as above.

I take at least one Bomba in all my Ork flyer mixes now,and they usually wreck face.

**Solar Shock**

Minijack wrote:

2-Bombing run takes place before intercept fire and is placed anywere along the move path,so any target up to 32" from the edge.

3-The Bombing run is NOT a shooting attack so NO JINK against it,unless the target has an invuln its pretty much dead models on a 2+

And finally,when the plane is shot at you can jink at will and still drop the other bomb the next turn,,.because of the non shooting attack status of the bombing run as above.

Can someone confirm these for me??
In this wording, would the deffcopta bomb also be unjinkable?

Also, Can I leave the board and drop a bomb? So like this;
Arrive from reserves - Move onto table and drop bomb,
Move off table edge - drop bomb?