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If all Orks had 6+ FNP which could be improved with Dok's Tools to 4+ and all Choppas and Big Choppas had rending, then they wouldn't be overcosted. Still a highly variable army, because Orks have to be for some reason?

Small, fun, non-game breaking tweaks. Rampage or Rage with a Waaagh? Still not game breaking since assault is so difficult now.

[whoops, delete]

Seems like I can't get a proper answer in YMDC, so I will repost here and hopefully some of you can help me out.

I've only got access to the older version of Waagh ghazz; and it seems as if you cant take any of the Kustom gubbins unless you take a detachment or formation from the book...

My question is this; can you take a CAD or allied detachment in waaagh ghazzgull or no? Am I required to take all of the stuff from one of the detatchments in order to unlock those relics?

Similarly, do 'oddboyz' from the reprint count as a formation, or is it just a component of the great waaagh band?

Why I ask is because I want to take a mega force field, but I'd rather not have to unlock it with a whole formation if I don't have too.

 davou wrote:
Seems like I can't get a proper answer in YMDC, so I will repost here and hopefully some of you can help me out.

I've only got access to the older version of Waagh ghazz; and it seems as if you cant take any of the Kustom gubbins unless you take a detachment or formation from the book...

My question is this; can you take a CAD or allied detachment in waaagh ghazzgull or no? Am I required to take all of the stuff from one of the detatchments in order to unlock those relics?

Similarly, do 'oddboyz' from the reprint count as a formation, or is it just a component of the great waaagh band?

Why I ask is because I want to take a mega force field, but I'd rather not have to unlock it with a whole formation if I don't have too.

AFAIK, there's no Waaagh Ghazghkull CAD or Allied fomation options available - you have to take one of the formations from the book. I haven't asked around about this, though, so I could be wrong.

It's not hard to take the Detachment, honestly, the requirements aren't that bad, and I don't mind the benefits. I take a (roughly) 500 pt minimal Waaagh Ghaz detachment in some of my lists, which nets me:
- A small unit of meganobs in a trukk (MANZ missile)
- 2 units of grots on foot
- Big mek with Mega force field

It's mostly for the mega force field, but hey, they all get a chance at deep striking too! Well, it might not be very competitive, I think it's fun at least... for what it's worth, I have won a close game with a timely unit of deep-striking runts!

Hey guys!

I've finally tried a multiple Megaboss list in trukks, inspired by PipeAlley's list, in a 2v2 with Nids vs Iron Warriors and Necrons. I've fielded:

4x Megaboss w/ BP in a trukk w/ ram, with 9 boyz and a barebone nob
2x 5 lootas
1x kopta

Wow that was awesome. Megabosses can tank shooting and close combat attacks all day long. Barebone nobz were useful against overlords' challenges. Cybork body could have saved a few wounds, but aren't mandatory I think. Still, maybe I'll add them in a later match.

The only downside of this strat, I would say, is the unfluffyness of the "tanking all hits" shenanigan. It's like putting a DLS megaboss in front of a 30-boyz squad and watch it take ALL hits. I know that the rules allow it but it's a glitch that shouldn't be, IMO.

haha thats awesome! giving squads of boys megabosses fixes a huge problem I have with orks.....

Why is it that theres a race whose entire society is based around fighting in the fluff, and the second they get into a fight, they start to collapse in fear left and right? If they're gonna make orks piddly cowards in the game regardless of the fluff, you shouldn't have any qualms about having a tanky boss in the front either

Now if only we could place the explosion wounds on the boss too, all the trukk problems would be fixed

Na, that's perfectly fluffy.

See, you got this BIG, MEAN, GREEN Warboss leading the march/charge of his horde, and so everyone's trying to shoot him before HE's the one that smashes their line apart. So they're concentrating fire on the biggest target.

And him, being a heavily armoured Warboss, basically just ignores all the piddly firepower being thrown his way. You see, it's just Not Enuff Dakka to take 'im down.

 davou wrote:
Now if only we could place the explosion wounds on the boss too, all the trukk problems would be fixed

You lose a few boyz to the explosion and ensuing mob rules but with Ld 9 you still have ~85.7% chances of being good to go (pass both tests). That's a lot better than with Ld 7 (~66.4%). I guess on average you lose 4-6 boyz. Yeah, that's still painful...

Anvildude wrote:
Na, that's perfectly fluffy.

See, you got this BIG, MEAN, GREEN Warboss leading the march/charge of his horde, and so everyone's trying to shoot him before HE's the one that smashes their line apart. So they're concentrating fire on the biggest target.

And him, being a heavily armoured Warboss, basically just ignores all the piddly firepower being thrown his way. You see, it's just Not Enuff Dakka to take 'im down.

Hmm, I guess you're right!

Of course, as stated before, I still have to test this kind of list against a really mobile army (dark eldar for example).

 davou wrote:


Why is it that theres a race whose entire society is based around fighting in the fluff, and the second they get into a fight, they start to collapse in fear left and right? If they're gonna make orks piddly cowards in the game regardless of the fluff, you shouldn't have any qualms about having a tanky boss in the front either

Just because they love to fight, doesn't mean that they love a FAIR fight. If something is not going their way, they know enough to get out of there!

In AoS, I see the bravery stat as less that they are breaking and running... more that they aren't disciplined enough to not make mistakes. I see it as the mistakes that people make when they get desperate, going too far with your blade... leaving yourself open at the wrong time and getting punished for it. Orks are going to have a low Bravery, we know that.

The other side of things, we are going to continue to have randomness forced upon us. It is to counteract the simple dice statistics of rolling so many dice. Sure, grots might hit on a +5 and wound on a +6, but 80 attacks will more reliably do 4 wounds than 16 attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on a 3+. The randomness of the army needs to counteract that fact.

Ashkayel wrote:
Hey guys!

I've finally tried a multiple Megaboss list in trukks, inspired by PipeAlley's list, in a 2v2 with Nids vs Iron Warriors and Necrons. I've fielded:

4x Megaboss w/ BP in a trukk w/ ram, with 9 boyz and a barebone nob
2x 5 lootas
1x kopta

Wow that was awesome. Megabosses can tank shooting and close combat attacks all day long. Barebone nobz were useful against overlords' challenges. Cybork body could have saved a few wounds, but aren't mandatory I think. Still, maybe I'll add them in a later match.

The only downside of this strat, I would say, is the unfluffyness of the "tanking all hits" shenanigan. It's like putting a DLS megaboss in front of a 30-boyz squad and watch it take ALL hits. I know that the rules allow it but it's a glitch that shouldn't be, IMO.

Sounds awesome, great job! The freedom, power, and flexibility of these lists are intoxicating! I have no qualms on putting some hits on the boss but I'd rather have the boys die in general, especially when hit with a flamer while still inthe Trukks. The way I look at it is each unit of Boyz and Boss are one 14 wound creature. The boyz and Nobz attacks are just bonuses. As the boys get whittled down, the head of the creature jumps ship and attaches itself to a healthier body. Now you have a separate unit of Nob and a few Boyz(the discarded body) that can absorb overwatch, claim an objective, or Sweeping Advance!

My biggest worry is now the new Eldar Soulburtsing shenanigans! We need to be talking about that!

 PipeAlley wrote:


My biggest worry is now the new Eldar Soulburtsing shenanigans! We need to be talking about that!

There's no real need to talk about that, if you face a list with 2 reborn warhosts and its typical spam of min scatter bikes you may get 48 S6 shots in your turn. It's something that should never existed and I hope with the 8th edition this nonsense would disappear

i agree, theres not really a point in talking about it at all.

Eldar already has about 30% value above where they should in their unites (things that cost 100 points should cost 130) and orks already have about the same, but in the opposite direction (things that cost 130 should cost 100).

add to that that the things in the ynnari suddenly get an extra activation on each turn, it amounts to playing a game where someone just up and decided to bring twice as many points as you did to a game. I'd play a person who wanted to try it out once, but then not again unless I was paired with them at a tournament. Its like someone setup a chessboard where each odd pawn was replaced by a rook

 davou wrote:
Seems like I can't get a proper answer in YMDC, so I will repost here and hopefully some of you can help me out.

I've only got access to the older version of Waagh ghazz; and it seems as if you cant take any of the Kustom gubbins unless you take a detachment or formation from the book...

My question is this; can you take a CAD or allied detachment in waaagh ghazzgull or no? Am I required to take all of the stuff from one of the detatchments in order to unlock those relics?

Similarly, do 'oddboyz' from the reprint count as a formation, or is it just a component of the great waaagh band?

Why I ask is because I want to take a mega force field, but I'd rather not have to unlock it with a whole formation if I don't have too.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/686134.page

I tried to make the argument in this thread

EDIT; Anyone else started fielding more boyz before toyz again? My luck has gotten better the more toyz I remove.

EDIT2: Oh! Also there is a 3 Troop 1 HQ in the hardback version of W!G that isn't in the softback version, if you want a smaller troop tax

bah, what crap. if I had a facebook account I would ask GW for and FAQ but it looks like im out of luck

 Rismonite wrote:


EDIT; Anyone else started fielding more boyz before toyz again? My luck has gotten better the more toyz I remove.

It depends on what lists you run. A lot of bikes (even without zhadsnark), mek gunz, tankbustas and meganobz are certainly better than a ton of boyz. But boyz spam is better than a dread mob for example.

 Blackie wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:


EDIT; Anyone else started fielding more boyz before toyz again? My luck has gotten better the more toyz I remove.

It depends on what lists you run. A lot of bikes (even without zhadsnark), mek gunz, tankbustas and meganobz are certainly better than a ton of boyz. But boyz spam is better than a dread mob for example.

Sometimes trukkboyz have an upper hand over bikers. For example vs droppod alpha-strikes or vs ignore cover shooting or high ini elite mellee. So, it's not correct to say that bikers are always better.

Trukk lists really don't like to go 2-d though.

You are right but trukk boyz lists means 50-60 boyz at most which is not the case of fielding tons of boyz.

With the expression "boyz before toyz" we should consider at least 80-90 boyz, probably more.

A list building tidbit I had to relearn again the other day. I run a lot of Ghazcurion style lists on foot because I like fearless boyz, and I find I usually don't get production out of the Council. Well I had to trim a list down to play at 1500 points the other day. Friendly as the game was, I decided to be lax about my list. I ran my Council straight from the book plain, no extras, except the Waaagh! Banner which is required. I decided to do the same with everything else, 60 Boyz, Warboss, some Nobz. I had enough points for a Gorkanaught. "Man, I never get to play him.".. So I casually plunk him down in this list, with 2x5 Stormboyz and two extra Nobz to round out the 1500.

My opponent is running some marine heavy list with a Skyhammer and the IF formation that gets bolters rerolling all misses, and is Imperial Fists with lots of bolters all around. He has a variety of Dev squads, two squads choppy jump marines, some choppy marines in a shooty Razorback, and two squads of shooty marines with a template each in a Rhino. One of the Dev squads is a drop melta squad in the Skyhammer formation, and will shoot full BS when they drop.

Well gak, I have to guard my dorkanaught to get some use out of him. So I stick the council and some grots in front of him, and stuff the boyz all around him and behind him to deny the melta's bonus range.

My opponent decides to drop turn two, I carefully walk my guys around my big stupid walker, but he shoots up just enough boyz on one side to get his Melta's to drop turn two, land one hit, reroll because tankhunters, pen, roll an explodes! result, and then I fail my cover save. Effectively shorting me of 250 points. This being after my Gorkanaught killed only two marines firing his guns twice. So, by mixing types of models on the table, I learned -again- that offering different targets just makes your list easier to shoot with a range of weapons. Taking 1W models? Make your whole army 1W models. Why? Well so the drop melta has nothing good to shoot. Want to field your Gorkanaught? Well you better field like six of them so that your opponent's small arms fire has nothing to shoot.

I tell ya what is worse, I didn't want to be boring and take 25 more stormboyz instead of the gorkanaught. But sure enough, first turn one of my squad's of stormboyz went 2+ feet across the table and locked a squad of Devs in combat for two turns, preventing them from firing missile launchers, and being invaluable at protecting my dorkanaught for two turns. If I didn't have to worry about the missile launchers or the melta, I could be worried solely about heavy bolters and shooty marines.

My opponent ignored the Council the entire game, shot everything else off the table by the top of 5, leaving me with one scoring unit in Eternal War:Crusade. So we called it a GG and I blamed me being a moron and fielding the dorkanaught in a boyz tide. If I take stormboyz and lock more bolters in CC turn 1 and 2, then the game is very different.

Now hopefully someone has advice on how to paint perspective on blacks and browns.

Anyone know if a voidshield benefits from a KFF save?

The voidshield doesn't. The voidshield generator (building) does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rismonite wrote:
A list building tidbit I had to relearn again the other day. I run a lot of Ghazcurion style lists on foot because I like fearless boyz, and I find I usually don't get production out of the Council. Well I had to trim a list down to play at 1500 points the other day. Friendly as the game was, I decided to be lax about my list. I ran my Council straight from the book plain, no extras, except the Waaagh! Banner which is required. I decided to do the same with everything else, 60 Boyz, Warboss, some Nobz. I had enough points for a Gorkanaught. "Man, I never get to play him.".. So I casually plunk him down in this list, with 2x5 Stormboyz and two extra Nobz to round out the 1500.

My opponent is running some marine heavy list with a Skyhammer and the IF formation that gets bolters rerolling all misses, and is Imperial Fists with lots of bolters all around. He has a variety of Dev squads, two squads choppy jump marines, some choppy marines in a shooty Razorback, and two squads of shooty marines with a template each in a Rhino. One of the Dev squads is a drop melta squad in the Skyhammer formation, and will shoot full BS when they drop.

Well gak, I have to guard my dorkanaught to get some use out of him. So I stick the council and some grots in front of him, and stuff the boyz all around him and behind him to deny the melta's bonus range.

My opponent decides to drop turn two, I carefully walk my guys around my big stupid walker, but he shoots up just enough boyz on one side to get his Melta's to drop turn two, land one hit, reroll because tankhunters, pen, roll an explodes! result, and then I fail my cover save. Effectively shorting me of 250 points. This being after my Gorkanaught killed only two marines firing his guns twice. So, by mixing types of models on the table, I learned -again- that offering different targets just makes your list easier to shoot with a range of weapons. Taking 1W models? Make your whole army 1W models. Why? Well so the drop melta has nothing good to shoot. Want to field your Gorkanaught? Well you better field like six of them so that your opponent's small arms fire has nothing to shoot.

I tell ya what is worse, I didn't want to be boring and take 25 more stormboyz instead of the gorkanaught. But sure enough, first turn one of my squad's of stormboyz went 2+ feet across the table and locked a squad of Devs in combat for two turns, preventing them from firing missile launchers, and being invaluable at protecting my dorkanaught for two turns. If I didn't have to worry about the missile launchers or the melta, I could be worried solely about heavy bolters and shooty marines.

My opponent ignored the Council the entire game, shot everything else off the table by the top of 5, leaving me with one scoring unit in Eternal War:Crusade. So we called it a GG and I blamed me being a moron and fielding the dorkanaught in a boyz tide. If I take stormboyz and lock more bolters in CC turn 1 and 2, then the game is very different.

Now hopefully someone has advice on how to paint perspective on blacks and browns.

Well, nothing new here, really. Naughts are bad cause expensive slow non-superheavy vehicles are bad overall. Play them as allied chaos knights and you'll see some improvement. Naughts need to cost around 120 pts to be worthwhile in current meta.

 koooaei wrote:


Naughts are bad cause expensive slow non-superheavy vehicles are bad overall.

And BS2 makes them even worse than the average ones.

 koooaei wrote:
The voidshield doesn't. The voidshield generator (building) does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rismonite wrote:
A list building tidbit I had to relearn again the other day. I run a lot of Ghazcurion style lists on foot because I like fearless boyz, and I find I usually don't get production out of the Council. Well I had to trim a list down to play at 1500 points the other day. Friendly as the game was, I decided to be lax about my list. I ran my Council straight from the book plain, no extras, except the Waaagh! Banner which is required. I decided to do the same with everything else, 60 Boyz, Warboss, some Nobz. I had enough points for a Gorkanaught. "Man, I never get to play him.".. So I casually plunk him down in this list, with 2x5 Stormboyz and two extra Nobz to round out the 1500.

My opponent is running some marine heavy list with a Skyhammer and the IF formation that gets bolters rerolling all misses, and is Imperial Fists with lots of bolters all around. He has a variety of Dev squads, two squads choppy jump marines, some choppy marines in a shooty Razorback, and two squads of shooty marines with a template each in a Rhino. One of the Dev squads is a drop melta squad in the Skyhammer formation, and will shoot full BS when they drop.

Well gak, I have to guard my dorkanaught to get some use out of him. So I stick the council and some grots in front of him, and stuff the boyz all around him and behind him to deny the melta's bonus range.

My opponent decides to drop turn two, I carefully walk my guys around my big stupid walker, but he shoots up just enough boyz on one side to get his Melta's to drop turn two, land one hit, reroll because tankhunters, pen, roll an explodes! result, and then I fail my cover save. Effectively shorting me of 250 points. This being after my Gorkanaught killed only two marines firing his guns twice. So, by mixing types of models on the table, I learned -again- that offering different targets just makes your list easier to shoot with a range of weapons. Taking 1W models? Make your whole army 1W models. Why? Well so the drop melta has nothing good to shoot. Want to field your Gorkanaught? Well you better field like six of them so that your opponent's small arms fire has nothing to shoot.

I tell ya what is worse, I didn't want to be boring and take 25 more stormboyz instead of the gorkanaught. But sure enough, first turn one of my squad's of stormboyz went 2+ feet across the table and locked a squad of Devs in combat for two turns, preventing them from firing missile launchers, and being invaluable at protecting my dorkanaught for two turns. If I didn't have to worry about the missile launchers or the melta, I could be worried solely about heavy bolters and shooty marines.

My opponent ignored the Council the entire game, shot everything else off the table by the top of 5, leaving me with one scoring unit in Eternal War:Crusade. So we called it a GG and I blamed me being a moron and fielding the dorkanaught in a boyz tide. If I take stormboyz and lock more bolters in CC turn 1 and 2, then the game is very different.

Now hopefully someone has advice on how to paint perspective on blacks and browns.

Well, nothing new here, really. Naughts are bad cause expensive slow non-superheavy vehicles are bad overall. Play them as allied chaos knights and you'll see some improvement. Naughts need to cost around 120 pts to be worthwhile in current meta.

Ahh I like this idea! GW screwed up badly not making them superheavies and the Storm Surge is a GMC?!? We'll see what the next 'dex brings.

We won't need to wait on a dex... I suspect that a Generals Handbook will be on the way with the release of 8th. That, and the overall rules changes will be favorable to our walkers. At least, my Dread Mob hopes so!

 Anpu-adom wrote:
We won't need to wait on a dex... I suspect that a Generals Handbook will be on the way with the release of 8th. That, and the overall rules changes will be favorable to our walkers. At least, my Dread Mob hopes so!

There is a strong possibility of a shake up for Orks, in a good way, of vehicle damage charts are removed. This of course means Orks will play against a lot more lists that have basic transports and dreadnoughts as well.

I also expect astartes Terminators to become a more common site with the removal of the AP system, and them possibly becoming multi wound....


As for the gorkanaut, against lots of anti armor drop troops I would start it in reserves. Better to have it not have a turn or two then get blown up and do nothing. It's guns aren't great but it can come in shooting due to decent rangebands and can hold or threaten an objective on your half of the table- much better than blowing up turn 1.

 koooaei wrote:
The voidshield doesn't. The voidshield generator (building) does.

Hows about this; if I have a bike behind the voidsheild and inside of the KFF bubble, Does a player shooting at it have to roll against av12 for the shield, and then I get the save from the kff?

 davou wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The voidshield doesn't. The voidshield generator (building) does.

Hows about this; if I have a bike behind the voidsheild and inside of the KFF bubble, Does a player shooting at it have to roll against av12 for the shield, and then I get the save from the kff?

Void shields can have no saves. Ever.

 Rismonite wrote:
A list building tidbit I had to relearn again the other day. I run a lot of Ghazcurion style lists on foot because I like fearless boyz, and I find I usually don't get production out of the Council. Well I had to trim a list down to play at 1500 points the other day. Friendly as the game was, I decided to be lax about my list. I ran my Council straight from the book plain, no extras, except the Waaagh! Banner which is required. I decided to do the same with everything else, 60 Boyz, Warboss, some Nobz. I had enough points for a Gorkanaught. "Man, I never get to play him.".. So I casually plunk him down in this list, with 2x5 Stormboyz and two extra Nobz to round out the 1500.

My opponent is running some marine heavy list with a Skyhammer and the IF formation that gets bolters rerolling all misses, and is Imperial Fists with lots of bolters all around. He has a variety of Dev squads, two squads choppy jump marines, some choppy marines in a shooty Razorback, and two squads of shooty marines with a template each in a Rhino. One of the Dev squads is a drop melta squad in the Skyhammer formation, and will shoot full BS when they drop.

Well gak, I have to guard my dorkanaught to get some use out of him. So I stick the council and some grots in front of him, and stuff the boyz all around him and behind him to deny the melta's bonus range.

My opponent decides to drop turn two, I carefully walk my guys around my big stupid walker, but he shoots up just enough boyz on one side to get his Melta's to drop turn two, land one hit, reroll because tankhunters, pen, roll an explodes! result, and then I fail my cover save. Effectively shorting me of 250 points. This being after my Gorkanaught killed only two marines firing his guns twice. So, by mixing types of models on the table, I learned -again- that offering different targets just makes your list easier to shoot with a range of weapons. Taking 1W models? Make your whole army 1W models. Why? Well so the drop melta has nothing good to shoot. Want to field your Gorkanaught? Well you better field like six of them so that your opponent's small arms fire has nothing to shoot.

I tell ya what is worse, I didn't want to be boring and take 25 more stormboyz instead of the gorkanaught. But sure enough, first turn one of my squad's of stormboyz went 2+ feet across the table and locked a squad of Devs in combat for two turns, preventing them from firing missile launchers, and being invaluable at protecting my dorkanaught for two turns. If I didn't have to worry about the missile launchers or the melta, I could be worried solely about heavy bolters and shooty marines.

My opponent ignored the Council the entire game, shot everything else off the table by the top of 5, leaving me with one scoring unit in Eternal War:Crusade. So we called it a GG and I blamed me being a moron and fielding the dorkanaught in a boyz tide. If I take stormboyz and lock more bolters in CC turn 1 and 2, then the game is very different.

Now hopefully someone has advice on how to paint perspective on blacks and browns.

You are right there. The naughts aren't so bad when you take 5 and say a stompa for all the av13. I've even come close to taking some tournaments around here and its pretty competitive here.

So PipeAlley's idea of MAWB's in trukk squads seems to be resonating with a lot of people. I've seen a few people listing this idea. Kudos to you sir!

I'm dusting off my orks for a few more games in 7th after having almost a year break from them and I love this idea.

Just a few questions about this tactic.

1. Am I right in assuming that you can't benefit from Run&Charge waagh because of the MA warboss being unable to run.

2. Whats the plan for handling armour and walkers. Is it just the PK's on the warbosses?

 Nithaniel wrote:


1. Am I right in assuming that you can't benefit from Run&Charge waagh because of the MA warboss being unable to run.

2. Whats the plan for handling armour and walkers. Is it just the PK's on the warbosses?

1) With trukks' speed you typically don't need that single run+charge granted by the waaagh. If the vehicle survive that 1-6 '' run may be redundant, if the vehicle is wrecked before moving you'll need to cross the entire battlefield with 10 boyz plus a warboss, which means you won't probably see combat anyway, even without the megarmor

2) Several S10 pks with ws5 are a great anti-tank actually, way better than rokkits which would be 20ish at most and with only S8 bs2. An AV10-11 spam can be a problem but against some AV12-14 those warbosses are a super effective anti-tank.

I'm not really a fan of this kind of list as I prefer the bullyboyz or the real MSU style with cheaper units in trukks and a lot of firepower thanks to lootas, tankbustas, bikes and lobbas, but against several types of lists it can worked very well, especially if orks start first.

 Nithaniel wrote:
1. Am I right in assuming that you can't benefit from Run&Charge waagh because of the MA warboss being unable to run.

2. Whats the plan for handling armour and walkers. Is it just the PK's on the warbosses?

To complement Blackie's reply:

1. Don't forget the MAWB also prevents you from overwatching and making sweeping advances. However, if you have something else in combat, say a lone kopta, or a second mob of MAWB-less boyz, they can try a sweeping advance. About the run moves, I've not tried it yet, but you could always separate the MAWB from the boyz in the movement phase, and have the boyz run and charge a distant weak target, when the MAWB contribution is not really needed. Very situational, but it's something to keep up your sleeve. Having a barebone nob with the boyz helps for that matter.

2. Like Blackie said. The walker kills a few boyz, then the MAWB kills the walker.

I love MSU lists, but I also love this kind of list. It's why I always complement my MAWB trukks with single koptas, single mek gunz and/or 5-man lootas mobs.