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 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I didn't realise quite how jealous the 40K world is of Eldar...

Entirely justified jealousy.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Going back to something that's actually relevant to the original topic:

We can pretty much assume that the Wraithknight is a gargantuan creature. What does this mean as far as tactics on the tabletop?

1. Greatly increased durability. No longer need it fear our dark kin or snipers. FNP is also big, as is being immune to instant death. Assuming it keeps its statline, it will be very hard to wound, but not impossible to kill.

2. Massive fire magnet. Even more so than an imperial knight. Stomp attacks, strikedown, and 12 inch movement mean this thing will be impossible to ignore.

I argue that the new Wraithknight should be used as a gigantic distraction unit, taking the fire that will murder our other, considerably more fragile units. "Distraction Carnifex", meet the "Distraction Wraithknight".

As far as weapons go, we have three options:

Heavy Wraithcannons: Now with S: D! Good luck gettin people to play against these. Could also be the most expensive option. At least it's only single shots, so not quite as hilarious as Pulsars.
Suncannon/Shield: The more reasonable shooty option. Has lost the ability to twin-link, but scatter lasers are probably still the best secondary option. Also gives a 5++, which is not insignificant with FNP.
Ghostglaive/Shield: S: D in CC form. From the battle reports in the WD, it seems to hit at Initiative 5, which combined with 4 base attacks will let it safely take on imperial knights up close.

The Bad: I imagine a sudden renaissance of "No ranged Destroyer" in the future, which invalidates our previous most popular loadout. Going with the weapon options and its new role, sword and board with SL will probably be the new hotness.

Could also get a massive price increase, along with being a Lord of War. If you want to do the Warhost Iyanden style, you need Wraithguard and a Wraithlord, and those aren't cheap, especially with transports.

Overall, the Wraithknight will still be an impressive model, both on the tabletop and display. GC means its better off charging the enemy to distract from out objective holders.

Somebody mathhammer out how hard it will be to kill a Wraithknight with all the options.

Math calculation to show how hard to take down this thing. Let's use Necron Warriors Gauss Flayer and Centurion Grav cannon. They are the only basic infantry gun that can hurt very big guys (and this is same for the poison weapon against "tomorrow" Wraith Knight) and the latter represent gold standard of "very good" heavy fire power especially when supported by Tigirius.

Let's look at the gauss flayer first. Warriors hit on 3s and the gun wound wraith knight on 6s, so every 18 shots cause one wound. While the WK can take the 3+ armor, and followed by a 5+ FNP. Which means only 2 out of 9 wounds are unsaved. Thus, the Necrons should fire more than 81 Gauss flayer shots to take out a single wound on the WK, i.e. one 11 men squad and one 20 men squad standing at 12 inch PLUS two Ghost Ark supporting them, just to put ONE WOUND on that monster. Which can be gain back by 5+ IWND

For the Grav Centurion, they have much better chance because there is no saying GC immune to grav rule, so they wound on 3s rerolling and no armor save. If buffed by Ignore cover and reroll to hit from Divination power from Tigirius or GK Libby, no cover save as well as 3s to hit rerolling, only FNP or inv save from the shield could mitigate. So at the best scenario, to inflict one wound, only need 1.898 shots to reliably do so. If the WK has the shield, then 2.848 shots. I.e. to KILL a WK with / without the shield in one salvo, you need 11.39 shots and 17.09 shots respectively. It is within the capability of a "larger than minimun" squad of Centurions when joined by Tiggy. But you need to get all the support psychic powers to go off, which is hard unless you can ally with GK for warp dices, since you can expect the Eldar gets 1 to 2 farseer and 3+ warlocks so they out mastery level you by 3 to 1 thus can throw more dices easily to deny the most vital psychic power.

Simply say, in terms of mathmatical calculation, maybe Marine have a combination to counter WK. That is Draigo-Tiggy-Grav Cent Star. As for the SL jetbike spam, The only solution I can come up is also this Draigo Tiggy Cent Star. Which a min number of Cents in a squad can mathmatically wipe out one full squad of Tactical Marine. So with Ignore Cover psychic power buff, they should have no problem to delete a full squad of jetbike. While GoI is the only way one can hope a ground unit to catch those jetbikes. But this combination is way tooooo specific. And the eldar can gather all their dice to deny two most important power -- the GoI and Perfect Timing. While the further buffed to broken eldar defintely have the volume and quality of fire needed to wipe this special star out in one turn if they turely take 60 SL Jetbike and 3 WK.

Boost them with DA librarius conclave. Easy to match warp charges and cast on 3+.

Ironically the best anti-wraithknight army will likely be eldar who have multiple D weapon platforms and thus actually make big scariest like the WK a liability.

Link: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/eldar-formation-secrets.html (Larry Vela, so apply heavy sodium)

One big thing we have coming in the next codex is the Warhost detachment. I can already see how this will significantly affect how Eldar are played. The only problem is we don't yet know any sort of detachment benefits from the Warhost.

At first glance, the Warhost is much more restrictive than the Decurion: there are very few "0-1/0-3" options; everything is pretty much locked in place as far as number of units.

For detachment benefits, it would be very interesting if the Warhost keeps ObSec and the WT re-roll.

The big advantage to the Warhost is the amount of flexibility in the auxiliary units you can bring. 1-12 choices is even better than the Decurion, no matter how restrictive the formations may be.

The core Guardian units are very much like the Reclamation Legion, in that you could make an entire army out of it. We have several basic options with the mandatory units:

Jetbikes: Talked to death in other threads. Spam only if you want to lose friends and never get games.
Storm Guardians: Nope. Not even Ulthwe players use these.
Guardian Defenders: Solid and cheap troops. Camp objectives and use weapons platform to provide support.
Farseer and Warlocks: Solid as ever. Eldar are a psychic army and it's good that we get these in the core.
War Walkers: Underrated HS choice. The loss of laser lock diminishes SL+BL effectiveness, but it's still probably the best option.
Vaul's Wrath: Rarely used, but can be effective. D-Cannon could fall under Destroyer rules, so Vibro Cannon or the Shadow Weaver are the friendlier options, Shadow Weaver being better.
Vypers: Overshadowed by War Walkers. Load up with BL and cannon and use their speed and low profile to hunt side armor.

The auxiliary formations also look good. 12 Wraithknights probably isn't possible in 2000 points or under. Assuming they cost the same, Rangers could be very effective as cheap infiltrators. Engines of Vaul looks good too, with the ability to take grav-tanks in a squadron. Hopefully split fire is a thing. The Aspect Host also looks good, as it lets us be flexible and fluffy with our elite units. Iyanden will love the Wraith Host. Regents will let us field all the special characters we want.

Overall, the Warhost detachment will be a balancing act between spending enough in the Guardian Host to make it viable and leaving enough points open for the auxiliary units to support the core

Do you really think the wraithknights points will remain? I any see it. They surely must be going to 300+

What are the points on most other GMCs? I remember the Tranny C'Tan was 600+ and the Daemon Lords are 666+ depending on which one, I dunno what most other races have.

The daemon costs are a poor comparison as they tried to be clever in using the gods number. But their cost did not match their ability.

Why are GMC's around the 600 point plus mark, and yet the imperial knight is 370. I'd expect around the imperial knight price as they're still going to want to sell them.

With regard to Wraith Knights...will they retain their 'Jump' status? Will Deep Strike be available to them? If yes, then hilarity ensues.

DCannon4Life wrote:
With regard to Wraith Knights...will they retain their 'Jump' status? Will Deep Strike be available to them? If yes, then hilarity ensues.

I'd doubt they'll keep that. But there's no evidence to that assumption. Just think that would be a touch ridiculous.

Hmmm, how about 15 Lootas in a BW with 4 Big Shootas for a total of 355 points? 15-45 Str 7 ap4 48" range and 12 Str 5 ap5 36" range. X3 is 1065. AV 14 front castled in a corner with a 5++ inv save and Meks to repair HP for a little more. Easy with Unbound, a little more pricey with CAD.

Or if you really want to get crazy Mek Gunz MSU.

In an 1850 list you can get over 100 T7 4 wound units that fire a Str 8 ap 3 at 36" in 4+ cover or a Str 5 ap 5 small blast 48" out of sight! If each Eldar bike squad manages to kill one unit per turn that's only 30-42 MSU's gone by games end.

Or a Stompa with 180 fearless Grots in the way.

Like every other codex release ever; Orks save the day!

Prove me wrong (hint: Orks never lose!)

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Could someone explain the interaction between Psychic Shriek (Or the Harlequin Mirror of Minds) and Gargantuan Creatures? For example it is possible for me to force a -5 Ld on the Wraithknight, then if i got off Mirror of Minds he has to roll a D6 + Ld to beat my Shadowseer. He cannot win this, so would he just die? Would it be similar if Psy Shriek caused him to take a butt load of wounds?

I don't know how Mirror of Minds works, but Gargs are immune to weapons and powers that would cause the creature to be instantly removed as a casualty. They inflict 1D3 wounds instead.

BRB, p. 71, for reference.

Mirror of minds is a fancy Mind War, when cast both players roll a dice and add their respective leadership. If the Harlequin rolls higher or equal, the enemy models loses a wound and the test goes again. This will happen again and again until either the opponent manages to get a higher result then the Shadowseer or the model dies. With various Ld debuffs it is possible to make it impossible for the opponent to get a higher result, so they would take infinite amount of wounds until the model is removed.

Would that work on a Gargantuan Creature? With easy access to Mask of Secrets, Armour of Misery and Grotesque Spectacle i can put anything at -5, this seems like maybe the only way for Dark Eldar to kill off a Wraithknight.

I'm a bit late to the party, but I've been doing some research on this issue and though I just had to reply - Mirror of Minds and Psychic Scream would work on a Gargantuan Creature. It's normal wounds they are inflicting after all, not magical "instant-death-remove-from-play" wounds.

What wouldn't work, then? My preferred orky trick against MCs, for example. The Tellyport Blasta, a weapon that causes ID on a 6 to wound. Or Vortex weapons. Or the Portal of Exile on the Necron Monolith. These weapons would be doing 1D3 wounds on the Garg instead.

So yep, casting MoM on a gargantuan (let's cut the euphemisms already: on the Wraithknight ) is actually a sound tactic.

Well thought out, mate!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
With regard to Wraith Knights...will they retain their 'Jump' status? Will Deep Strike be available to them? If yes, then hilarity ensues.

I'd doubt they'll keep that. But there's no evidence to that assumption. Just think that would be a touch ridiculous.

I would agree with you as well in that the gargantuan creatures have their own unit type unless it is a special rule they get

 Quickjager wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:
Anyone else amused that the guy whose signature proclaims he plays 40k in hard mode is asking for a 40k easy mode?

Why would we care what anyone on the internet thinks? wth is with your account?

I just found it amusing. As to my account, I made it when I first started exploring the online world of 40k but left 40k and only came back to it occasionally and not here, hence the age and post count.

So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd call it at a hair under an IK - if only because it has to choose between decent shooting or D strength in CC. Then again, I can't make a call on solid slug ranged strength D. I'll say somewhere in the ballpark of 320-330.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd like it to be costed close to current Tyranid LoW (Barbed and Scythed Hierodule).

It's current MC profile is extremely similar to the Hierodules

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd call it at a hair under an IK - if only because it has to choose between decent shooting or D strength in CC. Then again, I can't make a call on solid slug ranged strength D. I'll say somewhere in the ballpark of 320-330.

This would make me very very happy. I don't mind a price increase if it's anything up to a 100 points more. To be honest, over that I think is fair. But too much more than the imperial knight and I'll feel slightly insulted.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd call it at a hair under an IK - if only because it has to choose between decent shooting or D strength in CC. Then again, I can't make a call on solid slug ranged strength D. I'll say somewhere in the ballpark of 320-330.

This would make me very very happy. I don't mind a price increase if it's anything up to a 100 points more. To be honest, over that I think is fair. But too much more than the imperial knight and I'll feel slightly insulted.

WKs already give Knights a run for their money, but the impressive boost to survivability and offensive output puts them cleanly over. The only reason I suspect they will cost less is some inherent weaknesses of the GC category and the choice they have to make between shooting and CC. To the effect of the former - Skitarii rad weaponry, fleshbane, certain psychic shenanigans (psychic shriek / mind war) and grav weaponry still make them cry, while being wholly ineffective against an IK.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd call it at a hair under an IK - if only because it has to choose between decent shooting or D strength in CC. Then again, I can't make a call on solid slug ranged strength D. I'll say somewhere in the ballpark of 320-330.

This would make me very very happy. I don't mind a price increase if it's anything up to a 100 points more. To be honest, over that I think is fair. But too much more than the imperial knight and I'll feel slightly insulted.

That would be undercosting the WK. A WK can already deal with a Knight quite well due to S10 shooting, S10 attacks and more importantly, I5.
Giving it Destroyer Weapons would make mince meat of IK very quickly.

That's my point exactly! There are still quite a few hard counters to a GMC. A friend of mine runs grav cents with tiggy. They will make a wraithknight cry.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
That's my point exactly! There are still quite a few hard counters to a GMC. A friend of mine runs grav cents with tiggy. They will make a wraithknight cry.

There are some counters for sure, but not everyone has them.

No granted. I'll give you that. But not everyone has counters to Adamantine lance formation. Its no different really. There is quite a few units or death stars out there that not everyone has counters to. And yet for some reason, because eldar have been top tier for a while, we get the most amount of abuse. A wraithknight is probably roughly on par with an imperial knight. So the points should represent that fact.

People rightly complain about the ad lance too. And necrons. I don't think its a personal thing against the eldar lol.

Its just eldar are now the most recent and glaring example of imbalance.

Depending on points costs and weapon rules, the new knight sounds like it will beat an IK every day of the week.

Ranged D weapons are a huge advantage. D attacks in cc at I5 will potentially beat down a knight before it swings.

I'm hoping the WK is around the 450 mark.

Eldar simply have the widest sweep of imbalances (or did, until crons turned up). That's why they get most of the abuse. You're hard pressed to find a unit in the book that isn't at least passable. By and large, most codices are reduced to 1-2 builds because the alternatives are simply bad. Eldar builds are reduced because other units are comparatively worse internally rather than externally - if that makes sense.

OK, I'll give you that mostly, but the book isn't without its bad units.

Banshee's I won't even start on.
Fire prisms aren't that great as they take a heavy slot.
Falcons are worse than the above mentioned.
Vypers don't get used. They're like war walkers but weaker.
Hemlocks I never see.
There's a few others in there too, but you get my point.

All I'm saying is, other books should be more like the eldar book, and not the other way round. If eldar have so much competition for slots because units are all comparatively good, then that's a good thing. And should lend itself to more varied armies. It's certainly more interesting from a gaming perspective then knowing which units will be selected from the army you're facing simply because they're the only units in the codex that are any good.

I like what you said obsidian. My friend, an eldar player, frequently likes to use under played aspect warriors to break up the monotony and they still perform well.

I swear this happens every new codex though. Everyone goes crazy. Watch they do something silly like they did with harlequins where you aren't allowed a normal cad and have to use formations or some crazy force org that requires like 3 fast attack or something.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
People rightly complain about the ad lance too. And necrons. I don't think its a personal thing against the eldar lol.

Its just eldar are now the most recent and glaring example of imbalance.

Depending on points costs and weapon rules, the new knight sounds like it will beat an IK every day of the week.

Ranged D weapons are a huge advantage. D attacks in cc at I5 will potentially beat down a knight before it swings.

I'm hoping the WK is around the 450 mark.

I see what you're saying. I still think it's less durable than the knight. I'm going 350 mark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bonachinonin wrote:
I like what you said obsidian. My friend, an eldar player, frequently likes to use under played aspect warriors to break up the monotony and they still perform well.

I swear this happens every new codex though. Everyone goes crazy. Watch they do something silly like they did with harlequins where you aren't allowed a normal cad and have to use formations or some crazy force org that requires like 3 fast attack or something.

Why aren't harlequins allowed to take a CAD?

Isn't their detachment something that requires 3 troops and a heavy at least. Now I have to look at it again.

** Yes, looking at the codex, to remain battle forged, they gotta take the detachment that requires 3 troops, 2 fast, and a haeavy

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Isn't their detachment something that requires 3 troops and a heavy at least. Now I have to look at it again.

Yes it is, but they can choose to take a CAD instead if they so wish. The CAD and allied detachments from the BRB are avaliable to every force.

The eldar have their own detachment. There is a YouTube link in this thread somewhere that shows the leaked white dwarf. The eldar detachment requires one core selection. There are 3 selections to choose from. Each includes a farseer. Each includes a vyper squadron, 2 require a war Walker squadron and either 3 squads of storm guardians or normal guardians. The other requires warlocks, and 3 squads of wind rider jetbikes. I actually love these new detachments. They're encouraging people to take units that aren't normally selected in order to gain even more bonuses for their force. It's the same with necrons and Daemonkin.