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 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
To the topic title. The confirmed changes will effect our play style by having no one to play against if there's anything on a bike or made of wraithbone in our army list.

Love that GW has no idea what they do to their own game. There's no way they have a single clue.

Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

No, the mass of str6 is enough to down just about anything.

A 270 point squad that puts out 40 str6 shots. They will still get over 6 hits and 3 wounds, 1 gets past saves and causes a grounding check. Not bad for 1 turn of firing.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So I thought with the SW and BA codices GW were trying to do some balance, and then Crons and Eldar gakked the bed.

That's what's so annoying about all of this. GW had a chance to do the right thing and now they choke, twice.

The solution is simple: Eldar and Necrons are one game called "40k+", the rest of us just play "40k". It's two different games.

 Vaeleria wrote:
Still funny how people complain without having read the book yet. Of course there'll be buffs and nerfs somewhere, pushing WK into LoW-Slot forces Eldar to use their own detachment, or to field just one. Weren't people complaining that they were spammed to much?..and what now, they get a bit more resilience against snipers and poison along with FNP, yay~...

This game is constantly changing, I've not seen an army that was impossible to beat.

But some people claim certain units to be useless...if you can't use it, then you're incapable of playing it right, easy and hard as that.

If the meta is not for your list, change, adapt, learn new ways to kill the other army...as long and as frustrating as that might be, that's actually a great deal of fun to me.

Or do you all go to the table and expect to win without doing anything for it? Sure sounds like that with many posts here.

Spot on.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Could someone explain the interaction between Psychic Shriek (Or the Harlequin Mirror of Minds) and Gargantuan Creatures? For example it is possible for me to force a -5 Ld on the Wraithknight, then if i got off Mirror of Minds he has to roll a D6 + Ld to beat my Shadowseer. He cannot win this, so would he just die? Would it be similar if Psy Shriek caused him to take a butt load of wounds?

I don't know how Mirror of Minds works, but Gargs are immune to weapons and powers that would cause the creature to be instantly removed as a casualty. They inflict 1D3 wounds instead.

BRB, p. 71, for reference.

The Jetbike reaction is just like the Wraith reaction and any other underpriced unit before that.

"I'll take 100000000000000x Jetbikes/Wraiths/Whatever and I'll win every game!"

Then it just doesn't work that way. This doesn't change the fact that the Jetbikes are awesome, but that you still need a flexible army. The fact they're troops really does help them and makes them even better, but at this point I'm thinking that investing more than let's say 700 points out of 1850 total is already excessive and beginning to be counter-productive.

If the D weapons end up being underpriced too there's a sweet combo of mass S6 and S D to be made. I wouldn't forget the option of taking allies either. How about Eldar Jetbikes and a Wraithknight with 3 Flyrants and 3 Mucolids as Come the Apocalypse allies?

Firstly I am amazed how many people missed the humour of the Pratchett quote
Secondly if the mathshammer truly was the king of everything it would be pointless playing the game. The point I was trying to make is that probability can predict trends but trends don't win games.

Also I find it astounding that so many people can use the term chance without fully comprehending it. If we just work with the maths of rolling dice without considering other facts (and I'm not talking tactic here) Unless we start exploring the complexities of chaos theory do we even come close and, due to its very nature, we can never full make predictions that come to pass 100% of the time.

Do we predict the times a die ends up balanced on an edge?
Does the theory support the idea I will win a game on the last 6 rolls of a game (three 6s followed by 3 1s)

Yes, I accept that probability theory support trends in results that increase in accuracy the more rolling we do but that is not the nature of the game. Each game has a finite number of rolls and one games rolls do not effect anothers.

If you truly think that maths dictates you can't win then why play at all? As for refusing to play a list as the maths goes against you, well that's your right. I hope you don't come to my club. Much more important to me is the attitude of the player. Have they come to play? Are they polite? Do they have a sense of humour?

Each to their own of course and I would defend your right to your opinion but I play this game for enjoyment and I get that regardless of the list that comes to the table.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Could someone explain the interaction between Psychic Shriek (Or the Harlequin Mirror of Minds) and Gargantuan Creatures? For example it is possible for me to force a -5 Ld on the Wraithknight, then if i got off Mirror of Minds he has to roll a D6 + Ld to beat my Shadowseer. He cannot win this, so would he just die? Would it be similar if Psy Shriek caused him to take a butt load of wounds?

I don't know how Mirror of Minds works, but Gargs are immune to weapons and powers that would cause the creature to be instantly removed as a casualty. They inflict 1D3 wounds instead.

BRB, p. 71, for reference.

Mirror of minds is a fancy Mind War, when cast both players roll a dice and add their respective leadership. If the Harlequin rolls higher or equal, the enemy models loses a wound and the test goes again. This will happen again and again until either the opponent manages to get a higher result then the Shadowseer or the model dies. With various Ld debuffs it is possible to make it impossible for the opponent to get a higher result, so they would take infinite amount of wounds until the model is removed.

Would that work on a Gargantuan Creature? With easy access to Mask of Secrets, Armour of Misery and Grotesque Spectacle i can put anything at -5, this seems like maybe the only way for Dark Eldar to kill off a Wraithknight.

Gargantuans are immune to psychic powers, friendly or enemy. Gotta find another way mate.

 Quickjager wrote:
Gargantuans are immune to psychic powers, friendly or enemy. Gotta find another way mate.

Where does it state that?

Last I recall about four or five lines above them concerning instant death? Don't got the BRB with me currently.

Just read through it again there is nothing I can see that states those rules.

Are you sure? I remember the wording specifically going psychic powers unless they have a Str value cannot hurt Gargantuan Creatures, and then if they have the instant death special rule roll a D3 anyway.

 Quickjager wrote:
Are you sure? I remember the wording specifically going psychic powers unless they have a Str value cannot hurt Gargantuan Creatures, and then if they have the instant death special rule roll a D3 anyway.

Hasn't been the case for years. That got removed with the most recent Apoc book.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

And I want to have a chance at winning. Heck that's not even true, I'd like to be able to enjoy a game in which my models are more than NPC cannon-fodded for your FPS hero characters.

I'd also like to be able to play a regular game of 40k, not apocalypse. GW is introducing all of the options from Apocalypse into regular 40k, and thusly I (and others) have the right to ignore / ban those things and try to play some semi-balanced games. The games in which 100 orks is actually a decent amount of models, not cannon fodder to be removed in one turn.

Well unfortunately that seems to be the way GW is going. Super heavies and gargantuan creatures are a big part of 40K now. And you can bet your bottom dollar they're not going to go back on their decision any time soon so you better get used to it?

Someone will find a way to out do the Jetbike Scatterlaser thing.

And I thought I read the Sisters of Battle have some kind of ammunition that affects psykers (maybe any target). I thought my Eldar codex said all Eldar are psykers. A witch or a witch on a broomstick? The bolts don't care.

3 Y'Vahras. Problem solved.

Going back to something that's actually relevant to the original topic:

We can pretty much assume that the Wraithknight is a gargantuan creature. What does this mean as far as tactics on the tabletop?

1. Greatly increased durability. No longer need it fear our dark kin or snipers. FNP is also big, as is being immune to instant death. Assuming it keeps its statline, it will be very hard to wound, but not impossible to kill.

2. Massive fire magnet. Even more so than an imperial knight. Stomp attacks, strikedown, and 12 inch movement mean this thing will be impossible to ignore.

I argue that the new Wraithknight should be used as a gigantic distraction unit, taking the fire that will murder our other, considerably more fragile units. "Distraction Carnifex", meet the "Distraction Wraithknight".

As far as weapons go, we have three options:

Heavy Wraithcannons: Now with S: D! Good luck gettin people to play against these. Could also be the most expensive option. At least it's only single shots, so not quite as hilarious as Pulsars.
Suncannon/Shield: The more reasonable shooty option. Has lost the ability to twin-link, but scatter lasers are probably still the best secondary option. Also gives a 5++, which is not insignificant with FNP.
Ghostglaive/Shield: S: D in CC form. From the battle reports in the WD, it seems to hit at Initiative 5, which combined with 4 base attacks will let it safely take on imperial knights up close.

The Bad: I imagine a sudden renaissance of "No ranged Destroyer" in the future, which invalidates our previous most popular loadout. Going with the weapon options and its new role, sword and board with SL will probably be the new hotness.

Could also get a massive price increase, along with being a Lord of War. If you want to do the Warhost Iyanden style, you need Wraithguard and a Wraithlord, and those aren't cheap, especially with transports.

Overall, the Wraithknight will still be an impressive model, both on the tabletop and display. GC means its better off charging the enemy to distract from out objective holders.

Somebody mathhammer out how hard it will be to kill a Wraithknight with all the options.

Back on topic. Thank you.

I'm not sure it will be a Lord of war. There's been no indication as of yet. Though going off of other GMC's it could perhaps be 'assumed'. However, in the white dwarf leak there is a close up of the eldar detachment. One of the auxiliary choices is a single wraithknight. So it seems it'll still be possible to take multiple.

As for the D strength range weapon. I'm not sure they will be permanent strength D. Personally I'm expecting strength D to interact with distort some how and for the distort rules to change. I'm imagining something along the lines of a 6 to hit is counted as strength D, or something along those lines.

Personally, I was quite lucky to play in a meta where poison wasn't common place. Nor was a idea fire. So I only ever used them as giant distractions. They used to soak a fair amount of fire power as it was. Now I believe their resilience finally befits the size and background of the model. I'm very excited by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the video that shows the detachment options....

https://youtu.be/VhSOv3MjHE0

It is confirmed from the WD that he can have Str D shooting, or CC.

It is also confirmed that with the new "formation" you can take plenty of them, lord of war or not.

I honestly feel for my eldar friends - two of them had to shelve their armies - as no one wanted to play them, or they were just too easy and no fun, or they had to self nerf so much.

Sadly, in the closet they stay... GW please get a clue.

WK point cost is going up I hope tho?

There have been a few key takeaways from what we know.

-I'd never run 1000 points in Jetbikes. I already own 20 and I don't think I'll bother taking that many. The biggest issue with the Jetbikes is their LD8. Kill 3 Jetbikes in a 10 strong squad and you have to make a morale test. You can beef them up with an Autarch or Farseer, but that's more points your sinking into just one bike unit. There is just way too much in this game that can wipe Jetbikes off the table.

-Squads 3-6 strong may be a sweet spot, especially if running a CAD. 81 points for 12 STR6 shots and having a small footprint is pretty good. 24 STR6 shots at 162 is a good value.

-Bikes with Shuriken Cannons. This isn't getting much attention, but Bladestorm still exists and having AP2/auto wound on a 'to wound' roll of 6 can be clutch. I can definitely see taking a couple smallish squads of these.

-D Strength Weapons. I've already got Wraithguard, so I'll wait and see how this pans out. To be honest, if folks run Adamantium Lance formations, it looks like this codex may actually be a game changer.

-Wraithknight. Folks are really focusing on this, but I'm not so sure how the points value will work out for them. The points value will be very important. Also, I can't see how the Suncannon/Shield combo will remain more expensive than the dual Heavy Wraithcannon, especially being a STR D weapon.

-Vypers. If I run an Eldar detachment (I really need to see what bonuses I'd get for this), Vypers are all over the place. I really hope they do something rules-wise to make them worthwhile. I've not used mine since 5th edition, and they were not very good even back then. Give them something like Skyfire and I'll be happy. Otherwise, I really don't see me taking then, especially when I can take Hornets (assuming I play a CAD and not an Eldar Formation).

-Wave Serpents. With just what we know and suspect, they lost the Laserlock rule and likely Holofields will be a 5+ Inv save. Those two things alone are extremely significant. If they also change the Serpent Shield, I hope they drastically reduce the points for it. GW would still want to sell the kit (I would surmise) so I think they need to make it a reasonably worthwhile choice. Give it an assault ramp option and tons of folks would be extremely happy as they may actually want to run Scorpions/Banshees.

-Aspect Warriors. I'm a bit leary with them. There is a part of me that thinks they won't get a whole lot of great new rules because they did not release plastic kits for them. Why hype a unit when they are pretty much only available in Finecast. We'll see.

-From what I can see, the cool rules are in the form of what plastic kits they have produced of late. Jetbikes, Wraithguard, Wraithknight, Hemlock Fighter (I believe this has a Distort weapon which may become a destroyer weapon) and the Vaul's Wrath Batteries. Hopefully, I'll have a reason to field Wraithlords, Vypers and Falcons, the other Eldar plastic kits.

I hope the same. Hated the fact that wraithknights made wraithlords obsolete. Perhaps a touch of a price hike to the knight will help the Lords selection issues. I'd also love to see things like vypers becoming useful again. I'm remaining optimistic for a chance to see much more varied lists.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

So I thought with the SW and BA codices GW were trying to do some balance, and then Crons and Eldar gakked the bed.

That's what's so annoying about all of this. GW had a chance to do the right thing and now they choke, twice.

The solution is simple: Eldar and Necrons are one game called "40k+", the rest of us just play "40k". It's two different games.

This. I say we move all the marines into 30k, invite the orks, bugs, SOME of the daemons, and dark eldar because they're fun to hang with, and ignore those tryhard races. (Khorne and Slaany are hilarious, Tzeentch is a nerd and Nurgle stinks, so leave them out!)

They could make their Necron/Eldar fights into a specialist game of the ancient wars...so like "-65000k" or whatever the time was.

Anyone else amused that the guy whose signature proclaims he plays 40k in hard mode is asking for a 40k easy mode?

Meh my line up wont change much. My lone Wraithknight with its suncannon will not change its gear and now will be a bit more durable. Probably wont change my two Wraithlords with their BL, sword, and scat lasers either. My Wraithseer if the D weapon thing comes true just got that much better, albeit it still pays out the nose for that distort cannon.
Wraithguard with D-weapon scyths? yes please. I field two squads of Warp Spiders as well, hopefully they don't see a nerf or maybe go back to template weapons like they used to have. The only thing I might change is my lone aircraft, maybe it might be worthwhile to change it to a more fluffy Hemlock Wraith Fighter to match the rest of the list. Right now I would be gimping myself to do that as the regular fighter with an exarch pilot is such a good AA unit.

ShadowcatX wrote:
Anyone else amused that the guy whose signature proclaims he plays 40k in hard mode is asking for a 40k easy mode?

Why would we care what anyone on the internet thinks? wth is with your account?

My list will change because I like to use the army specific detachments. I certainly won't go spamming units like jetbikes with the new options. I can see why people could potentially be concerned about it though. I have come across a few 'win at all costs' players.

Codex: Eldar Craftworlds. Tactics

Tactics? lol

I didn't realise quite how jealous the 40K world is of Eldar...