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viable options yes, actualy competitive option on the level of the true op stuff out there, like, I dont know 40 str6 shot with long range, high maneuverability and decently tough for 270pts.
Nope, only flyrant spam comes close to this and frankly, isnt anywhere near as op as this. nowhere near it.

if this is true that the jetbikes can do this (while beeing OS troops no less) then I basicly want to slap GW in the face.
I can't download the codex till tommorow so im still crossing my fingers that its a rumor

 fartherthanfar wrote:
viable options yes, actualy competitive option on the level of the true op stuff out there, like, I dont know 40 str6 shot with long range, high maneuverability and decently tough for 270pts.
Nope, only flyrant spam comes close to this and frankly, isnt anywhere near as op as this. nowhere near it.

if this is true that the jetbikes can do this (while beeing OS troops no less) then I basicly want to slap GW in the face.
I can't download the codex till tommorow so im still crossing my fingers that its a rumor

Really? Mawlocs and spod devil gaunts are two painfully obvious counters. They both are good in other matchups as well.

They also generally run 3 flyrants.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
viable options yes, actualy competitive option on the level of the true op stuff out there, like, I dont know 40 str6 shot with long range, high maneuverability and decently tough for 270pts.
Nope, only flyrant spam comes close to this and frankly, isnt anywhere near as op as this. nowhere near it.

if this is true that the jetbikes can do this (while beeing OS troops no less) then I basicly want to slap GW in the face.
I can't download the codex till tommorow so im still crossing my fingers that its a rumor

I've seen the book. It's really not a rumour.

its funny because I already thought that the warwalker which allowed 24 str6 shot out of one unit to be a bit op (this is already twice as many as a dakka flyrant can do)

now they are allowing 40 str6 shot out of one unit? from a troop choice no less!!??

you know, I've really impressed with the general balance in the codex that games workshop pulled out in the past while, I was hopping that they wuld use this new Eldar codex to bring them back into line with the current general power level since they were a bit too strong.
instead they choose to make them more OP.

thats lovely.
just.... awesome....

new houserules, here we come.

Have you heard of Dakkafexes? It's hard to compare them due to being a walker vs a MC but still.

Pretty sure you can get turn 1 charges off with Banshees if you ally in Raiders.

6" move, 6" Deploy , Max 15" , 27 Total Possible move Average 2D6 is 8 + 3 is 11" .

So you'd need to roll above average.

Oh the tears are so delicious...

People need to get a grip. Jetbikes are still jetbikes. They are T4 with 3+ armor. Reapers will eat bikes for breakfast, probably a squad per turn easy.

Wraithknight are killed the exact same way as before except poison. You mass fire plasma, lascannon, missiles, lances, fleshbane.

Also to get 40 Shots out of a troop unit needs:
a) a Rather large footprint to move 10 bikes around
b) 270 points which can easily get eaten by a 200 point squad of Reapers in a single turn.

Yes Wraithguard with D-Scythes are powerful but what 6 inch range? They will wipe (for sure) 1 unit and die horribly like they usually do to mass AP3/AP2

Even funnier, put a Banshee mask on an Autarch, put him in a squad of Scorpions and charge the Wraithguard. Lock em in combat, mop the floor with them. Banshee mask denies Overwatch so no wall of death.

Mass poison from DE will still put down WG easy.

Does the new codex have strong units? Sure, so did Necrons.
Are the strong units as strong as people make them to be? Not by a long shot. Give it two months and the complaints.

^^ So the best counter to eldar units it's other eldar units

Shouldn't that be a red flag ?

Always hated Eldar, now it's just worse. Good read of a thread for a guy jumping back in though. I ran the numbers of Eldar firepower vs. any of my lists and I think my counter to Eldar will be going all reserve Turn 1 , oops I lost, GG next opponent please...

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
^^ So the best counter to eldar units it's other eldar units

Shouldn't that be a red flag ?

I go with what I know. I play Space Wolves and Eldar. With Space Wolves I would probably use some large blasts from Whirlwind, Relic Whirlwind, Stormfangs to try wipe some bikes off the map. If the bikes jink all the time they spend the whole game doing snap shots which is alot less scary.

Wraithknight? Plasma spam, lascannons, missile launchers, meltas

If people would find their balls and give it a chance, they will realize it is not unbeatable and not so bad. Does this change the meta? Of course! Is it the end of the world? No.

Well at least we will see the WAAC players flood even more to Eldar. Easier to spot now more than ever.

The new codex shelves my orks. I have no answers to the new Eldar codex. Too much range, firepower, and speed.

On the bright side taking a break from 40K will save me money .

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Wraithknight? Plasma spam, lascannons, missile launchers, meltas

They get FNP against all of this now.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

I go with what I know. I play Space Wolves and Eldar. With Space Wolves I would probably use some large blasts from Whirlwind, Relic Whirlwind, Stormfangs to try wipe some bikes off the map. If the bikes jink all the time they spend the whole game doing snap shots which is alot less scary.

Wraithknight? Plasma spam, lascannons, missile launchers, meltas

The bikes are basically better sternguard. Better movement, more firepower and range, about the same points cost per model. And the ability to Jink. They are scary. If you don't think they are scary, you're just trying to internet posture how you think you're better than everyone else for not seeing it as a problem.

As for your ways to fight a wraithknight: Plasma only wounds on a 5+. Missiles only do so on a 4+. Lascannons only do on a 3+. Killing a Wraithknight with Cyclone Missiles takes an average of 18 shots at BS4. That's 225 points worth of UPGRADES, let alone the platforms they come on. Just to kill a 270 point model. Would take as many melta gun shots which is 180 points worth of melta guns, let alone the platforms they are on, as well trying to get into position. It's 13/14 Lascannon shots at BS4 which is 260/280 points. It's 27 Plasma gun shots at BS4, which assuming you're in rapid fire range the entire time is 210 points, AND you're dealing with gets hot so you'll lose several soldiers of your on in the process of that kind of spam.

Looks like Wraithknights are getting FNP now too because ???, which I don't even want to figure out what kind of firepower you'd need to dump into said Wraithknight to kill it. They ARE A PROBLEM. The only thing you can bring as an Imperial player is a Knight, which is a losing proposition because they are more expensive and yet still easier to kill.

Dakkafexes are a poor example, their range is 18", they are slow moving, and are Heavy support so you normally expect the HS to have better guns than troops, who have OS.
Also they cost twice as much so the ratio is really a lot worst, yet these guys are one of the Tyranids all-Star.

Sure, the Windriders aren't invulnerable, but who the hell is? That doesnt mean its not OP. Some counters will exist but if you cant admit that this units is clearly underpointed for his power, you are either biased or dont understand the average power of most other armies in the warhammer 40k world.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Dakkafexes are a poor example, their range is 18", they are slow moving, and are Heavy support so you normally expect the HS to have better guns than troops, who have OS.
Also they cost twice as much so the ratio is really a lot worst, yet these guys are one of the Tyranids all-Star.

Sure, the Windriders aren't invulnerable, but who the hell is? That doesnt mean its not OP. Some counters will exist but if you cant admit that this units is clearly underpointed for his power, you are either biased or dont understand the average power of most other armies in the warhammer 40k world.

Yeah. They are way more broken than the single model that can hide almost anywhere out of LOS for the entire game and give the entire Tyranid battle line shrouded. While the uber-balanced and super fun to play against Flyrants just delete unit after unit. Nid players always act like their codex is gimped and they are tactical geniuses when their all shrouded 5 Flyrant list tables a deathwing player. Just saying you have a bad codex doesn't make it true...

Nid players were still whining about Eldar last month, when the Nids were scooping up 2x-3x more GT wins due to all the tactical geniuses that managed to work out the strategic nuances of putting 5 Flyrants down on the table.

Actually, even if I am a Nids player, I will gladly agree that flyrants are OP.

You pointing to our OP unit doesnt make your OP unit less OP.

I would never play with more then 2 flyrants, because more is really cheezy, we dont even have any other viable HQ option.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Dakkafexes are a poor example, their range is 18", they are slow moving, and are Heavy support so you normally expect the HS to have better guns than troops, who have OS.
Also they cost twice as much so the ratio is really a lot worst, yet these guys are one of the Tyranids all-Star.

Sure, the Windriders aren't invulnerable, but who the hell is? That doesnt mean its not OP. Some counters will exist but if you cant admit that this units is clearly underpointed for his power, you are either biased or dont understand the average power of most other armies in the warhammer 40k world.

Yeah. They are way more broken than the single model that can hide almost anywhere out of LOS for the entire game and give the entire Tyranid battle line shrouded. While the uber-balanced and super fun to play against Flyrants just delete unit after unit. Nid players always act like their codex is gimped and they are tactical geniuses when their all shrouded 5 Flyrant list tables a deathwing player. Just saying you have a bad codex doesn't make it true...

Nid players were still whining about Eldar last month, when the Nids were scooping up 2x-3x more GT wins due to all the tactical geniuses that managed to work out the strategic nuances of putting 5 Flyrants down on the table.

this made my night

 BladeWalker wrote:
Always hated Eldar, now it's just worse. Good read of a thread for a guy jumping back in though. I ran the numbers of Eldar firepower vs. any of my lists and I think my counter to Eldar will be going all reserve Turn 1 , oops I lost, GG next opponent please...

Well, treat it as a mental exersize. You know beforehand that your army is severely outclassed. Thus, you try your best to pull a win or a draw somehow. You invent cunning tactix and develop your skills. If you loose, well, noone's expecting you to win in the first place. But if you win - it's a true win. You're the one responsible for this win.

When you play eldar, it's like: you win - sure, you're an eldar guy, ofc you win. If you loose - lol how did you manage to loose with eldar?!

The easier it is to win - the more relaxed the player becomes and thus doesn't increase his tactical skills. You don't need to be smart to roll around and win games with scatbikes and d-weapons everywhere.

I like how you think kooaei, and I agree, i know I can still win against eldar using my nids, even without abusing the op flyrants.
But my issue is purely a frustration against GW. They had managed to give us good codexes for the past maybe 8 books.
Sure some of them where a bit strong, but mostly all arround the right lines of power, the only ones left to bring back in line were eldars and tau, since these two were just that smidge too strong within specific builds.

So they decide to actually upgrade 2 out of the 3 units that really needed a nerf. Making this faction even more broken than before.

Is the eldar codex unbeatable, of course not. Cunning tacticians can still overcome the flaws in the opponents playstyle and luck still play a big role.

But this is the codex that breaks a nice line of codexes.

Games-Workshop almost got back into line....
I fear they lost it all again.

Maybe im dramatising this but that is how I see it.

Grav weapons are probably the only reliable and pt efficient way to shoot at WK for the imperial.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Grav weapons are probably the only reliable and pt efficient way to shoot at WK for the imperial.

The problem is bikes and WK out range them by a minimum of 12" and move twice as far per turn. If you get your gak kicked in by grav cannons running units with 36"+ range and 12"+ movement per turn you're an idiot. In order for grav to be effective against eldar, the eldar player has to willingly feed the SM player units. I will personally be staying 31" away from those things at all times and blasting them at range. Even with invisibility and shrouded they will eventually go down and will only kill what I allow them to kill.

 Toofast wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Grav weapons are probably the only reliable and pt efficient way to shoot at WK for the imperial.

The problem is bikes and WK out range them by a minimum of 12" and move twice as far per turn. If you get your gak kicked in by grav cannons running units with 36"+ range and 12"+ movement per turn you're an idiot. In order for grav to be effective against eldar, the eldar player has to willingly feed the SM player units. I will personally be staying 31" away from those things at all times and blasting them at range. Even with invisibility and shrouded they will eventually go down and will only kill what I allow them to kill.

Until they ally with BA and pod in with a div libby on turn one. The point is, eldar are by no means invincible. Even the WK.

 Toofast wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Grav weapons are probably the only reliable and pt efficient way to shoot at WK for the imperial.

The problem is bikes and WK out range them by a minimum of 12" and move twice as far per turn. If you get your gak kicked in by grav cannons running units with 36"+ range and 12"+ movement per turn you're an idiot. In order for grav to be effective against eldar, the eldar player has to willingly feed the SM player units. I will personally be staying 31" away from those things at all times and blasting them at range. Even with invisibility and shrouded they will eventually go down and will only kill what I allow them to kill.

Gating invisible grav cent.

I play daemons. One option for me is belakor as warlord, him and fateweaver swoop in, Bela terror the WK, then they both psychic shriek the WK at LD8

I get to re roll any/all dice on 1 deny the witch per turn. I'm going to prevent at least one of those from going off pretty reliably. It is one of the best counters but by no means a guaranteed kill. Also I see a list like that struggling against a lot of other stuff so maybe if list tailoring is an option, it will work. In a 6-8 game tournament probably not.

Hollismason wrote:
Pretty sure you can get turn 1 charges off with Banshees if you ally in Raiders.

6" move, 6" Deploy , Max 15" , 27 Total Possible move Average 2D6 is 8 + 3 is 11" .

So you'd need to roll above average.

Don't forget though, if you deploy the boats sideways and then rotate during your turn you get 3,4 inches extra movement. Remember Hawks have 18 move and therefore can do this even better(though apart from baharroth they're terrible in melee, you could however lock up a riptide)

Just remember though, not everyone deploys straight up to the 12 line.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Don't forget though, if you deploy the boats sideways and then rotate during your turn you get 3,4 inches extra movement

Doesn't work since 7-th.

 Toofast wrote:
I get to re roll any/all dice on 1 deny the witch per turn. I'm going to prevent at least one of those from going off pretty reliably. It is one of the best counters but by no means a guaranteed kill. Also I see a list like that struggling against a lot of other stuff so maybe if list tailoring is an option, it will work. In a 6-8 game tournament probably not.

I'm pretty sure the deny the witch re roll is only if the farseer is the target?

 Toofast wrote:
I get to re roll any/all dice on 1 deny the witch per turn. I'm going to prevent at least one of those from going off pretty reliably.

That's only for Farseers. As a Farseer can never join the Wraithknight's unit, you can't re-roll the Deny the Witch for the WK. And as Farseers don't have psychic hoods and Wraithknights aren't psykers or have adamantium will, you're only denying on a 6.

 Toofast wrote:
I get to re roll any/all dice on 1 deny the witch per turn. I'm going to prevent at least one of those from going off pretty reliably. It is one of the best counters but by no means a guaranteed kill. Also I see a list like that struggling against a lot of other stuff so maybe if list tailoring is an option, it will work. In a 6-8 game tournament probably not.

Lol what?? And are you telling me a list including belakor and fateweaver struggling at tourneys? Lol