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The brutality of the Empire would also vary world to world and Commander to commander. The EU often makes the Imperials into your generic saturday morning cartoon villains because they want you to hate the Empire, and want you to support the Rebellion.

Both sides are the villains and neither side are, from a certain point of view...

 Manchu wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It existed to serve the will of the Sith.

Incorrect.

The Empire came about because the Core Worlds were worried about the power of private enterprise (the Confederation powers) having too much freedom in the Outer Rim.

Through the manipulation of the Sith Darth Palpatine who used the fear and power of the dark side to pervert the republic into what it had sought to oppose (the Sith Empire reborn) for thousands of years.

The seperatists had been gone for more than 15 years by the time of the rebellion. By then, the Empire was clearly a brutal police state and one where humans and aliens alike were banding together to overthrow it and restore the freedom of the Old Republic.

So your explanation doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense. The Senate was only dissolved during ANH, explicitly thanks to the construction of the Death Star.

Or did you really think one guy managed to change everything about the whole galaxy in about 20 years?

The Sith and the whole Light Side versus Dark Side is a central part of Star Wars. Beating the Sith is a big deal.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It existed to serve the will of the Sith.

Incorrect.

The Empire came about because the Core Worlds were worried about the power of private enterprise (the Confederation powers) having too much freedom in the Outer Rim.

Through the manipulation of the Sith Darth Palpatine who used the fear and power of the dark side to pervert the republic into what it had sought to oppose (the Sith Empire reborn) for thousands of years.

The seperatists had been gone for more than 15 years by the time of the rebellion. By then, the Empire was clearly a brutal police state and one where humans and aliens alike were banding together to overthrow it and restore the freedom of the Old Republic.

So your explanation doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense. The Senate was only dissolved during ANH, explicitly thanks to the construction of the Death Star.

Or did you really think one guy managed to change everything about the whole galaxy in about 20 years?

The Sith and the whole Light Side versus Dark Side is a central part of Star Wars. Beating the Sith is a big deal.

Only a handfull of people were ever aware that it was a Light Side vs Dark Side War against the Sith.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The brutality of the Empire would also vary world to world and Commander to commander. The EU often makes the Imperials into your generic saturday morning cartoon villains because they want you to hate the Empire, and want you to support the Rebellion.

Both sides are the villains and neither side are, from a certain point of view...

No in the films the Empire are clearly monsters and the rebels unambiguous good guys.

Even EU is clear.

The only good Imperials, like Han Solo, joined the rebellion because they realised how bad it was.

I am not overly steeped in the lore that has evolved since the first 3 movies.

Is it possible that when the 2 Sith die, the force makes another 2 just pop up as replacements?

It's hard to imagine a Star Wars movie having any legs without the Good Side vs. Dark Side of the Force angle.

But just because you killed the only visible sith doesn't mean more won't appear.

Anyone born with force powers could become the next Sith.

Sith are basically like a Hydra. Cut off one head and more will appear. The force demands balance!

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The Sith and the whole Light Side versus Dark Side is a central part of Star Wars. Beating the Sith is a big deal.

I agree -- but it is not the only deal. The Rebels are the Alliance to Restore the Republic not the Alliance to Defeat the Sith. There is no evidence that anyone in the OT besides Obi-Wan and Yoda even know what the Sith are much less that the Emperor is a Sith Lord.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
A nation state means that people within it have a common identity and that the state exists to represent those people. The EMpire is an amalgamation of millions of worlds with vastly different cultures and aliens who used to be part of a federal government. It is an Empire which exists to serve the personal designs of the Sith Emperor. For these reasons its not a nation state.

Nonsense. It's a nation state with a higher degree of centralized power than the one it replaced, but it's still a galaxy-wide government for a galaxy that has had a unified government for thousands of years. It still has the same bureaucracy, the same military providing the same protection against pirates, etc. Sure, there are whiny teenagers like Luke carrying on the tradition of whining about the government, but for the average citizen not much changed except the faces on the money. That isn't going to go away overnight just because the emperor is dead, there will be a fight for control of the empire between the high-ranking politicians/military officers/etc and then the winner will take over everything that the previous emperor built. The bureaucrats aren't going to suddenly stop doing their job because the ideology of the person at the top changed a bit.

I could see that argument that the Republic is not a "nation-state" but the Empire very clearly is one.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The brutality of the Empire would also vary world to world and Commander to commander. The EU often makes the Imperials into your generic saturday morning cartoon villains because they want you to hate the Empire, and want you to support the Rebellion.

Both sides are the villains and neither side are, from a certain point of view...

No in the films the Empire are clearly monsters and the rebels unambiguous good guys.

Even EU is clear.

The only good Imperials, like Han Solo, joined the rebellion because they realised how bad it was.

Um, no thats not how things work. Piett was not shown to be a monster, just a man doing his job. Captain Needa, again a man. The Stormtroopers? Sure some of them kill Owen and Beru but most of them you see are just doing their jobs, for the cause they believe in.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
No in the films the Empire are clearly monsters and the rebels unambiguous good guys.

{citation needed}

The only "monstrously" evil thing we see the Empire do is Tarkin's destruction of Alderaan as a political statement. Meanwhile we see that civilian life goes on as usual, as long as there's no rebellion. And we don't ever see the rebellion do anything to earn the title of "unambiguous good guys". They're the protagonists (and get labeled "good" by default as a result) but the only thing they ever do on-screen is fight against the Empire. And history is full of wars where neither side could really be labeled "good".

The only good Imperials, like Han Solo, joined the rebellion because they realised how bad it was.

Err, lol? Did you watch the same movie as the rest of us? Han left the Empire and became a criminal, a life he was perfectly happy with. He only reluctantly joined the rebellion much later.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
A nation state means that people within it have a common identity and that the state exists to represent those people. The EMpire is an amalgamation of millions of worlds with vastly different cultures and aliens who used to be part of a federal government. It is an Empire which exists to serve the personal designs of the Sith Emperor. For these reasons its not a nation state.

Nonsense. It's a nation state with a higher degree of centralized power than the one it replaced, but it's still a galaxy-wide government for a galaxy that has had a unified government for thousands of years. It still has the same bureaucracy, the same military providing the same protection against pirates, etc. Sure, there are whiny teenagers like Luke carrying on the tradition of whining about the government, but for the average citizen not much changed except the faces on the money. That isn't going to go away overnight just because the emperor is dead, there will be a fight for control of the empire between the high-ranking politicians/military officers/etc and then the winner will take over everything that the previous emperor built. The bureaucrats aren't going to suddenly stop doing their job because the ideology of the person at the top changed a bit.

That makes it a STATE.

A nation is the idea that people belong to a community or group that should be represented by their state; not ruled by foriegners or by individuals for example. Crucial to this is the idea of a shared history and distinct national identity.In The Old Republic, the Imperials and Sith in that are very clearly a nation state because they are a distinct people. In the films, the EMpire recruits humans from tens of thousands of worlds regardless of origin. The Galactic Civil War is a pure war of good versus evil. The rebels are the same stock of people but have very different moral convictions; which is why they find themselves on opposite sides in the civil war.

 Manchu wrote:
I could see that argument that the Republic is not a "nation-state" but the Empire very clearly is one.

Definitely debatable.

Although it was still a overarching galactic government, albeit an ineffectual one, that had existed for thousands of years. At the least people had some sort of identity.

Its possible that the clone wars themselves are what solidified that galactic identity to the point where it had enough substance for people to rally around.

There is also the human/alien dynamic. The empire was pro-human, and humans were a majority, although a narrow one.

Palatine basically gave the republic a identity with the clone wars and then turned that to accept the empire.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
No in the films the Empire are clearly monsters and the rebels unambiguous good guys.

{citation needed}

The only "monstrously" evil thing we see the Empire do is Tarkin's destruction of Alderaan as a political statement. Meanwhile we see that civilian life goes on as usual, as long as there's no rebellion.

The only good Imperials, like Han Solo, joined the rebellion because they realised how bad it was.

Err, lol? Did you watch the same movie as the rest of us? Han left the Empire and became a criminal, a life he was perfectly happy with. He only reluctantly joined the rebellion much later.

Just using the films.


The Empire dissolves the democratic government.

The Empire wipes out the guardians order of paragons dedicated to the light side

The Sith orchestrate a war in which millions die (Clone Wars) to seize power.

The Empire enslaves non humans (note this is the reason they walk around Death Star with Chewie)

The Empire tortures people

The Empire is prepared to blow up worlds to intimidate the galaxy.

The Empire hires bounty hunters to hunt down its enemies. Including evil Mandalorians and Trandoshans.

etc etcv

They are evil. End of discussion.

Evil yes.

Evil that everyone sees and is willing to stop, hell no.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:



That makes it a STATE.

A nation is the idea that people belong to a community or group that should be represented by their state; not ruled by foriegners or by individuals for example. Crucial to this is the idea of a shared history and distinct national identity.In The Old Republic, the Imperials and Sith in that are very clearly a nation state because they are a distinct people. In the films, the EMpire recruits humans from tens of thousands of worlds regardless of origin. The Galactic Civil War is a pure war of good versus evil. The rebels are the same stock of people but have very different moral convictions; which is why they find themselves on opposite sides in the civil war.

They are a nation state, all of those worlds belong to the Empire, many of them happily so. Recruiting people from a world is done by the Empire through voluntary methods, and is not once implied to be via conscription. Which likely means that the people that join believe in the Empire they are fighting for, which by your definition makes it a Nation and one that is not dependent on the rule of the Sith, but by the belief that the Empire is their home and they will do anything to safe guard it. Which would be heightened by the massive loss of life suffered at the Battle of Endor, by the direct cause of a force believed by the Empire to be a Terrorist organization.

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It also shatters my suspension of disbelief since a war lasting thirty years is just dumb

Yes, a thirty year war, how foolish.

Beyond that, you're talking plot points of an unreleased movie and an EU that has been removed for continuity.

I love you so much right now.

The Empire itself is very clearly evil. A lot of non-evil people, however, are caught up in the ranks.

im a huge star wars movie fan. i watched the first movie in '77. personally i dont care about what books were written after. it doesnt matter if disney is doing the movies. its going to be an amazing series. im pumped and this last trailer was amazing.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
That ending is absolutely clear that the EMpire has fallen.

Which ending? The original ending that just shows the Alliance celebrating a victorious battle or the one created twenty years after the movie was originally released showing several worlds celebrating?


Not to mention that in the EU, the citizens of Coruscant were convinced that the Death Stars were REBEL creations, not Imperial, and that the Emperor died sacrificing himself to destroy the second one.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:



The Empire dissolves the democratic government.

The Imperial Senate was still IMPERIAL, the likely hood that the Senators were democratically elected is slim to none.

The Empire wipes out the guardians order of paragons dedicated to the light side

The Paragons of Good that take children away from their parents to be forcibly inducted into a cult, who knowingly and willing take command of a Slave Army that has no say in their lives. Those Paragons of Good?

The Sith orchestrate a war in which millions die (Clone Wars) to seize power.

A war that the Jedi are ultimately more than willing to join, rather than remain out by cause of neutrality.

The Empire enslaves non humans (note this is the reason they walk around Death Star with Chewie)

The Republic enslaves humans, in the form of the Clone Troopers to fight in a War that ultimately their own corruption allowed.

The Empire tortures people

No evidence the Republic didn't, and the New Republic does.

The Empire is prepared to blow up worlds to intimidate the galaxy.

I'll give you that one for free, cause the Vong don't count and the Death Star would have been used against them.

The Empire hires bounty hunters to hunt down its enemies. Including evil Mandalorians and Trandoshans.

Evil Mandalorians citation needed

The Republic also makes use of Bounty Hunters to hunt down their enemies.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The Empire dissolves the democratic government.

A government that was considered corrupt and inefficient, even by the "good" characters. Remember, the movie shows the senate celebrating when Palpatine takes power.

The Empire wipes out the guardians order of paragons dedicated to the light side

Alternatively, the Empire wipes out a rogue militia group that exists to serve its own agenda and is only superficially under the control of the government.

The Sith orchestrate a war in which millions die (Clone Wars) to seize power.

And nobody knows this.

The Empire enslaves non humans (note this is the reason they walk around Death Star with Chewie)

Slavery was legal under the previous government as well. Remember how Anakin was a slave before he became Vader? Also, Chewbacca was disguised as a prisoner on the death star, not a slave.

The Empire tortures people

So does the US government. Is the US government "monstrously evil"?

The Empire is prepared to blow up worlds to intimidate the galaxy.

Yes, and I conceded that this was the one "monstrously evil" thing they do.

The Empire hires bounty hunters to hunt down its enemies. Including evil Mandalorians and Trandoshans.

Oh, I see, you're a racist who thinks that an entire species is evil? And hiring bounty hunters to hunt down criminals and terrorists is hardly an act of unimaginable evil.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Finally, it indicates that Disney is absolutely obsessed with making these films as much like the original trilogy as possible. Same cast, same setting, everything. They do not want to try anything new and this is a bad thing for any film franchise to do. If even a mild thing like, progressing the plot after the defeat of the Emperor is so unthinkable to them because then we wouldn't have BIG scary empire versus rebels. Even though games and stories like Knights and The Old Republic have shown that you can tell an excellent Star Wars tale without being totally hidebound to the setup of the original film. In TOR both factions are well matched in power for example as they 're locked in a mortal struggle of light versus darkness.

That's my main gripe for me as well. I liked Tim Zahn's books precisely because, even if they kept truish to the spirit of the trilogy, they did read like light political or spy thrillers set in the Star Wars universe. With Luke's big hero journey completed, there was no need to gloss over the mystical side of the trilogy again, and it was nice to see the Jedi and all associated mythos take a second seat to the monumental task of building a fair political regime off the ruins of the old empire.

 Peregrine wrote:
And hiring bounty hunters to hunt down criminals and terrorists is hardly an act of unimaginable evil.

Indeed. It's almost like it's a legitimate profession that people do everyday for every single state in the US.

I really hand it to the OP. This is better trolling than even Frazzled has pulled off lately! Bravo!

As a side note, the Empire represented Order and Human-centricity. Do you really think that doesn't appeal to a lot of people in the Empire. It wasn't the power of the Sith that held the Empire together, it was the core values of Law, Order, and Humanity first. Especially after the anarchy of the Clone Wars such views were widely ewelcomed.

I'm sure others have said it much better.

The way I see it is that the Empire, even though it was created by a Sith Lord is a huge self sustaining entity that's more than capable of surviving the emperor's death. In fact it's silly to claim that the empire would simply collapse following the battle of Endor.

There would probably be some local uprisings and a huge upswing in open support for the rebellion but the Empire would almost certainly rally once the power vacuum had been filled. Especially as the rebels would initially be in a weak position having had a good portion of their fleet destroyed at Endor. The Empire can replace their losses far easier than the rebels can.

What would then likely see is the war continuing with the Empire cracking down on the uprisings and the rebels rebuilding their military capability and expanding their influence. A protracted war lasting 30 years isn't necessarily an unrealistic prospect.

 Easy E wrote:
I really hand it to the OP. This is better trolling than even Frazzled has pulled off lately! Bravo!

I agree and it's why I am staying out of the "argument." I mean, the OP is complaining that Disney is making the new films (that no one has seen yet) too much like the Original Trilogy... you know, the thing us Star Wars nerds have been wanting since 1999.

That just preposterous.

The prequel trilogy does make good sense as a high level political backstory.

The Republic is a sprawling global alliance of systems, interplanetary powers, and galactic businesses. It presumably exists to coordinate to the mutual benefit of all its members but is riven by innumerable conflicting interests. The Republic is out of touch and might as well not even exist from the POV of certain systems, like Tatooine. Powerbrokers like the Trade Federation actually divert attention away from their shady activities by invoking the Republic's own parliamentary process. The visual story shows us a few noble humans prevented from getting anything done by a baffling variety of squabbling aliens.

One of those humans gets fed up with it and decides to get some of the squabbling aliens to work together. Those aliens happen to own a major slice of galactic finance and industry. Now, the movies do not clearly explain why but we can guess that the tension resulting from their secession from the Republic erupts into the first major war for generations at least. Again visually, the war ends up being between some aliens controlling robots on one side to mostly aliens controlling humans on the other. Eventually, the human army gets the upper hand at which point Palpatine frames the species-diverse Jedi for attempted assassination/treason and gets the human army to start wiping them out.

At the same time, the human army stamps out the last of the alien secessionists and begins to establish order in the formerly lawless Outer Rim. The Emperor cuts through the senate full of squabbling aliens with unilateral decrees backed up by his human army. The humans enslave entire alien species to build a super weapon. By the time ANH rolls around, the Emperor cuts out both aliens and squabbling (a.k.a., democracy) altogether.

A brief note on the Empire and evil:

Before the destruction of Alderaan, we're treated to the cold blooded murders of Owen and Beru Lars (and the Jawas before them) for no other reason than being casually associated with rebel assets.

That's what settled the Empire as "evil" for me. It is not some stylized, space-operatic act of evil, but a low, dirty, all too human one. The kind of act we've seen commited by terrorist groups, death squads and occupying armies throughout our history.

Good point, that was what the scene was supposed to tell us. This is the point where Luke resolves to go fight in contrast to his earlier statement that he hates the Empire (like everyone) but can't do anything about it.